how would you break down the classes Mark?
Interesting point of view, if folks didn't sandbag to get into a slower class

I would say Grant has moved more to the racecar side of the world and will do more so over the winter. Trekkor has become a very good driver so what he lacks in equipment he makes up for in dance moves...

I have not attended enough GGR events to say that they are faster or not... I know they could be. With all that room OMG! Most SVR courses are 914 courses because of our lot size. When I see what is in the same class as me in our results I am confused. I would just enter in the FUN category but I am competitive by nature.

I would vote for Parade Rules but I bet that isn't even being considered.

no major changes until 2008.

Kind of like bracket racing for cone heads? How about a PAX system...

Classes would be roughly broken down by who's the regularly in the top 10% (TTOD potentials), and then scale the numbers from there.

As an uneducated outsider, it seems ridiculous to have a ton of classes. What does a class win mean if there are 40 classes and only 2 or 3 people in your class.

Are there really people out there building AX classed cars to win? I'm serious here, I don't know. Is anyone saying, "I'm going to build the top dog AX8 car!" Or whatever class. From what little I've seen, the people who are going to the AX aren't looking at classes all day at the venue, they're looking at times. Very few people are concentrating on who's in their class and how they're comparing to those people. I could see the classes being more important if there were classified run groups, but that's not logistically possible. So it all get's mashed together.

In SCCA people definitely build class winning cars.

Under the old system people built cars to the limit of classes. For example, I understand that Bp used to be a very competitive and well attended class for 914s.

The old classes sort of put practical limits on the upgrades. You could only do so much before getting bumped up to the next class. The new classes are so wide open with different mods that people could come up with wild concoctions of cars.

I'm not sure if the culture has changed. Dan said they used to only have 2-3 people in Fun class and now we have 20. Is a reflection of the current membership or the new points sytem?

Maybe dedicated AXers will build cars for class wins? I kind of doubt it because there isn't much recognition for being AX## champ. It could take several seasons for people to figure out how to 'game' the points system.

OK, after reading this thread, I "get it".

The fairest Porsche AX class rules I've seen are the Parade classings.....the only problem with them are the number of classes. Condensing them by half would be a slam dunk for a smaller group. Reinventing the wheel has been done, eh? They are stable as an added bonus. All might not agree with the "cut offs" to move one to a higher class......but you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.

Hooking the AX rules to the TT rules is kinda shakey, but I think it would work using the Parade AX rules. For the most part, the Parade rules have like cars running against each other.....right up the line till you hit the Mod classes.....then bring the gun of your choice.

It seems that GGR competition board (or whatever you call it), needs a house cleaning. The only way to do that is to GET INVOLVED.....more than just letter writing.

BTW, I too have wondered where the "square corner" AX thing comes from. Iz'at another "We're Zone 7 & ain't we special" deal?

I have always wondered about the relevence of winning any class that has 3 or less competitors who consistently show up.

I think there are few out there who still want strict classing rules, but I think the number of classes can be collapsed.

JP,
I agree of course on the Parade Rules thing. Not only is it stable, it is portable across all regions and you know what to expect at Parade.

Actually, on the square corner thing, in SVR which is part of Zone 7 Matt Deter designs our courses. He puts one square corner consistently into the course at Stockton. It is right in front of the trailer and at the finish chute. I have always wanted to soften it and have asked on one occasion but he feels it is a safety thing. when you drive it, it isn't as bad as it looks. It does collect some cone carnage from the inexperienced and the aggressive drivers but it is "safe". I would guess there is a timing slip person sitting 45 feet from the corner and gridded cars sitting 100 feet. The thing about this square corner is it is really only "visually slow" a well set up car with a good driver can consistently take this corner pretty hot. Steve does. Joy makes it look like poetry with perfect lines but is not as aggressive.. Less experienced drivers get pretty slowed by the corner because all of the cones look intimidating I would imagine. I think it is more of an SVR thing than a Zone 7 thing...
Trekkors course at Marina this year was definately more anatomical. In fact I refered to one section of it as the intestinal section.

When I look at GGR I see a big machine. Good, bad, indifferent it's got a huge mix of track folks and is just bigger than all the surrounding regions combined. So they do their own thing and most regions follow suit.

I think there is tweeks needed on the points system but I don't see it as being a bad system. I think by re-evaluating the base points a few of the points on the mods you could clean up some of the glaring disparities. And I don't believe the Ad Hoc committee made up the points system on the fly. Several PCA regions in the U.S. use the point system. Zone 8 has used it for several seasons before GGR. Zone 8's seems to bucket more cars together than the GGR points system.

If we want to submit something by mid year next year for review and inclusion in 2008, we need to work on it. My suspicion is that less than a handful of people are going to want to work on it. More people may wish a particular item or items were different, but probably not enough to participate.

I'm debating myself if I should continue to work the issue with GGR or call off the dogs. For me I see it as a process improvement and one of needed refinement. But the rules themselves have very little meaning for me in my particular world of competion. Randal has the Raby powered 914 waiting in the wings that will take on Hamilton Racings car for TTOD. And I've got Fritz if I want to come out and play. These 3 cars should be lumped together in some "unlimited" class in my opinion. They are so removed from production cars that in AX they should compete against each other. And if you look at the AX standings, we were always 2nd through 5th to Andrew Blyholder, so that makes sense.

The refinement on the production based cars is where I'm interested in. My Spec Boxster will be interesting to class against the production cars. I think AX wise is correctly classed, but I'm a believer of power to weight ratio on the track and it is grossly mis-classed, as are a host of other cars, not just Boxsters.

I'm just wondering if I should lead a charge for correct and/or refined classing when it really doesn't matter for me since I'll either run unlimited GT classes with Fritz or play around with the Spec Boxster and not care about classes.

As far as why the bay area 914 club members don't AX in mass, I think it's preference. The majority of club members do not AX, they socialize. That in itself is really neat, but we don't seem to be a large group of racer types. We seem to be tinkerers, but only a few of us get off running over cones or hitting the big tracks.

Bill P.

I just found the GGR forums. I thought this was an interesting post by Fiid:

http://comp.pca-ggr.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=131

So, when someone builds a 350hp subie turbo 914 that starts consistantly winning TTODs, do you think the rule would be reinstated? I imagine that it would rub people the wrong way if a non-Porsche powered car started winning everything.

The other 914 specific issue that I've been thinking about is displacement. There is very little points difference between a 115hp 2056, a 150hp 2270, and a 200hp 2316.

Not in the spirit which the original rules were written...

There were other omissions as well...

Besides I have yet to see a subie or V-8 conversion at one of GGR's events that could turn

When? *If* would be better usage cause it ain't bloody likely.
Looking around this website, I see a grand total of one OTP engined 914 that is a serious AXer (MikeT). Why do you suppose that is the case?

JP

Dang! I missed that ..so how would you figure points on a 1.3 liter rotory conversion?

The only outfit that call the rotary a 1.3L is Mazda.
To everyone else it's 2.6L and that's giving the thing a break.
That said, I haven't a clue as to points.

I'm with Dan and JP on the side of we probably won't see a TTOD car with a non P-car motor anytime soon. Fiid did a great job on engineering his motor into the 914, but he still has to pour a small fortune of money into the suspension to make the car stick. Add to the fact that he has a very young family and I don't think it's in the cards anytime soon.

As far as the debate for non p-car engines starting to proliferate any AX's, again I think it will be only a few if any at all. I do think if someone made a car with a SBC, Wankel or Subie conversion and started dominating PCA events, the rules would be clarified once again to note that it is a Porsche Club America event. So the non P-car power plants would be relegated to runing for fun and/or exhibition classes.

It's a moot point right now. There is no serious competitor at our local events with alternative power plants.

Bill P.

We have a polethera of alternative powerplants at our PCA AXs.

They come wrapped in alternative cars & a few will often smoke all the Porsches.
....we even welcome them back over & over. Glutons for punishment?...maybe, but it gives a yardstick to match up with other makes & some damn good drivers.

The obvious reason there has been no TTOD non-porsche powered AX car so far was because the rules didn't allow it before. Why would have someone built such a car with no place to race it?

Fiid isn't a hard core autocrosser but there is no reason someone couldn't take an existing top car and make it faster. Andrew Blyholder or Steve Nislony (spelling?) could put a WRX subie engine in their cars for around $2000 or even less.

I think we still might not see it because I think everybody thinks as Bill does that the rules would be "clarified" if they did.

Another factor is our location. We are within easy driving distance of 3 regions (GGR, LPR, SVR) in PCA. We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".

It's JP's ole big fish in a little pond thing. I bet a hybrid car type of guy would get tired pretty quick of kicking tail in the local PCA region, so they'd eventually venture out, if nothing more than testing yourself against different competiton. In fact, Randal and I are looking at SCCA AX's to see how our cars perform against other marques.

With that being said, I really haven't seen any owner/builders going after a high end hybrid. It may only be $2K to stuff a motor in, but it would take someone effort and money to sort it. The car characteristics change when you re-engineer it, and you then have to tweek for it.

Bill P.

Nonsense....it's easy, just ask someone who's never done it.

SFR region SCCA really isnt all that tough. I showed up and did ok with my stock Miata with street tires in same class as guys running DOTr, well sorted suspensions, etc. Perception of SCCA of incredible driver talent is a bit of hype. They have several good drivers just like GGR does and then quality drops off.

One thing that is fun is driving against other makes of cars. Just a nice change up. I like it on the track too. I like running with P cars and I like running with other cars. It's all good.

As far as the point system, until someone comes out and starts competing and having success with alternative power plants, it will be mostly an non-issue.

I still believe a review and tweek of the points system would measureably help the fairness of the system.

Bill P.

Steve does well. I think it is certainly more difficult when you are competing against National level competitors in cars with 4-5+ times the HP. I have seen him at two SCCA events and he gets close to the TTOD. Perhaps he was speaking of the events in the Bay area. Once again your yards are bigger to play in.

the DEC (drivers event committee) has made its decisions and recommendations to the GGR board ....the results will not be revealed until the board has passed judgement (rubber stamp)

I have no idea how it went...although I would be pretty surprised if the proposals that BillD presented were not approved. the only thing that remains to be seen is if the proposals are (were) accepted what the points reduction will be for 914s and Boxsters. 60 was being thrown around. If so I will drop a class until I do my motor rebuild. With the mods I plan on I will probably end up back in the same classes for next season That would be nice...more power and same competitors.

Will keep everyone posted as soon as results are available.

[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike

[quote name='chilli' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:46 PM' post='825769']
[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike
[/quote]
Chilli, you're right.
Wow what a concept....lets write the rules so we make it tough on the P cars...
Hasn't just about every racing organization at some time or another written their rules to punish the Porsches.

I guess we should take it as a backhanded compliment

Now GGR just writes rules to penalize the Boxsters and 914s...you know we have the high HP advantage
Oh, that's right it is that midengine thingy...

Someone posted a link to this car in Brad's 'Beat Tom Provasi' topic saying that this is what top tier SCCA competition would be like:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-RX7-R...bayphotohosting

600hp, 1900 pounds, 12 & 14" slicks.

Forget that stuff....for 37.5K you could buy Fritz (Bill Ps 911 3.6 track car) and have several years of track time including entries and tires, motor rebuilds and still have some cash left over.

spending 100K for an AX car that runs 30-40 seconds at a time just doesnt compute for me.

I guess some of those guys are pretty hard core.

[quote name='Dan (Almaden Valley)' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:55 PM' post='825780']
[quote name='chilli' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:46 PM' post='825769']
[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike
[/quote]
Chilli, you're right.
Wow what a concept....lets write the rules so we make it tough on the P cars...
Hasn't just about every racing organization at some time or another written their rules to punish the Porsches.

I guess we should take it as a backhanded compliment

Now GGR just writes rules to penalize the Boxsters and 914s...you know we have the high HP advantage
Oh, that's right it is that midengine thingy...
[/quote]


Hmmmm ....I see Porsches winning SCCA class events all the time. I think SCCA is pretty fair . GGR unfair? Not in AX. Dan in his tired old street legal 914 won his supposedly unfair class in GGR by a mile and put up some top 20 times in large fields where he was driving the lowest HP car in the field. If 914 base points were unfair Dan and others wouldnt be placing as well as they do in GGR events. My stock powered 1.8 should have been on bottom of the heap too yet I had some top 20 places too. I think I'm the only one who thinks AX base points for the 914 were on the mark due to weight advantage. Our cars do have an advantage in AX.

I agree Grant, that I (we) can hold our own at AX...but at TT that is another thing.

Unfortunately for GGR the AX and TT rules are permanently entwined. Untill a fresh look is taken at HP/wt for TT the 914s at almost all levels, other than the GT classes,
914s will have a tough time.
We also need more 914s to show up for TT next season to get some data to support our contention that we need a points brake in that venue.
From what I have gathered from my inside informants...
The rules did not really get much of a change this year.

Almost all of BillDs proposals were negated by the DEC for Boxsters and 914s.
He presented alot of data but evidently not enough 914 or Boxster drivers were on the DEC this year

Oh well, maybe we can get some TT relief next season...

And besides aren't we always looking for any advantage we can get?

you all should create your own class system independent of GGR, and just run that.

Some info for those following this thread, but may not have investigated the class point system....

The GGR Car Classification site is back up. For anyone that wants to see the variety of cars classed together, this is a good example

Range in TT5 is from 914-4 thru 993 Turbo & 996 GT3!

Of course I've changed my cam in the 4 so I can run with them (it's one mutha of a cam)


I'm not making a stand on any particular point. Just wanted to provided some info to those who may be wondering what is going on.

I have fun showing this to my friends. I'm wondering how the guy with the 993 turbo explains to his friends that he is classed with a 914-4?

GT3 in same class as us. LOL! On a good day my power to weight ratio might be a little more than half of a GT3.

Its more fun to bitc! about unfair rules.

Hey Greg,

I'd take this as an opportunity to re-engineer the 914. I'd add a second 4 cylinder engine in the front, and go for a torquer, more like the tractor pull mentality you see on TV. You could pull the GT3's out of the corners and really kick butt!



Bill P.

You mean something like this?



AWD does help launch down the straights!



But then I'd get dinged for having TWO cams and probably have to run with GT-1R

Bill, I see we are both in TT8 with *identical* points.

Interesting


KT

Sorry Trek....with the spec box. Bill is going to hand you your butt in a wrapper at TT.

I love your 914 but he has suspension and handling advantage you can't overcome...

This is the fun of our points system...cars matched against cars that are in no way evenly matched at TT...

My word...


Are you going to come up to TH next weekend when we both hit the track again together?

I seems to me that the Boxster will do a 1:54 at Sears, a 2:05 at TH and a 1:50 at Laguna.
Maybe faster?
What do you think?

I don't know if *anyone* could drive my car as fast as Bill in his Boxster.
Is it fair to say that?


KT

Having had a better chance to cuddle up with the very interesting read that is the GGR points system I have to agree... The TT rules SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKSS!

There is much inequity in the groupings. Oh well... I get the impression that the TT thing is evolving in order to survive. I hope it does. I would love to try that some time.

Sorry, can't be there next weekend...I am having a small outpatient surgery on Friday and will be recuperating over the weekend...

As far as times. Th I would put more in the 2:08 range...Laguna more like a 1:46-:47


I think your other statement is fairly true. You have a car that in comparison is underpowered, and ancient suspension...all this comes into play on the big track where it is mitigated at AX.

Look at Bill and Randal's results with Lucille in their first AX...
Top 6 and 7 with a non-dialed suspension and less than optimal tires for AX...
It will only get faster as Bill gets the suspension dialed in and he runs stickier tires, be the 710s or Hoosiers.

I feel the car can be faster than Fritz at AX.

I say this because I have had my stocker Boxster out on BW, TH and Laguna and know what it does in stock configuration...
Bill's spec Box is a whole other ballgame.

And I want to see more of the 914 folks look at the GGR points system with their eye on the TT matchups...
If more of you check it out, participate and make suggestions and/or proposals for next seaon...then maybe, just maybe we can get things on a more appropriated level for all 914s no matter what Porsche motor they have in them.

Hi Trekkor,

Remember...Dan said it...not me!....

I know Trygve is running 1:48's now in his 2.5L street Boxster with PSS9's. He's a fast driver so he's pushing his car. At Sears he's at 1:57's and at THill he's at 2:11. And that's with a heavy car and an agressive street alignment on Victoracers.

I theoretically should be able to go faster based on power to weight, but as I said, Trygve can drive, so we'll have to see. I'm not so sure mere mortals like us can get a Spec Boxster down to 2:05's at Thill. There's just too many HP sections I believe. My goal someday is to break into the 2:09's with the car.

As everyone has seen, the TT points values need some work. It looks like there will be a group of us working on it coming up, but it will be interesting to see or hear about the reasons why the majority of BillD's proposals didn't go through. He did alot of work on it with data collection, including making what I believe was a convincing argument on points and power to weight comparisons based on the existing PAX system. He pointed out that the Pax places weighting on different models which are not in alignment with how the weighting goes with the points system, yet we run the PAX and don't say anything.

I'll need to reserve further comments until I know more about what passed and didn't, but I'm curious to hear the reasoning behind decisions.

One thing that we can do as a group (914, 911, Boxster, etc) is call your own class. It is there in the rules. Even though several 914 folks always want to hit the track, not many show up. I think there were one or two at the TT's this year. But if you got 3 914's showing up consistently to TT's, that's the same average number in every other class that had enough points to qualify for awards. You could call your own class and go against each other all day long. So even if we are unsuccessful in changing any points values significantly, there is still an avenue for like performing cars and / or models to compete.

Still, with things like Greg Braun's 4 cylinder 914 up against GT3's on a 3 mile track at Thill....some of the assumptions are pretty far off.

Bill P.

So, in my car with an absolute pro behind the wheel, what are the fastest lap times we could hope to see?

I'm now:
2:00 Sears
1:55 Laguna
2:15 TH w/Cyclone CCW

Thanks

KT

Yes I did say that

Next season....we need to get Trekkor, KenH and myself to run together...and any other 914 that is close to the same wt/hp.
We can ask for our own class...I don't care if Trek beats me or not....
I think I have a few things I can still teach him Guess if we are going to compete I should stop instructing him Oh well he will just follow me to get my lines and braking zones any way...

At least we would be running against like cars for a change.
My car would be underpowered but should have a slight weight advantage with the 4 vs the 6 motor...
I would also petititon (ask nicely) to have us placed in the same run group....probably white. Or posssibly green...

Trek,
Laguna 1:50--52
th 2:12 +/-
Sears I have no idea probably 1:57 or so

It is those last 1-2 seconds that take lots of seat time and perfect lines.

I will make every effort to run the entire GGR TT series next year.

We will have BIG fun, regardless of the classing.

Using the GGR lap time/MPH calulator is a real eye opener.
Just picking up 3-5 mph overall average and I'm a pro?

Those last few seconds are elusive.


KT

The lap record for a 2.2L 914-6 running 7 inch wheels with 225 Dot Rs was a 1:48 at Laguna a couple of years back...that was Larry Sharps record...with his old blue car.

That was a very strong lap for that car/motor combo.

Yes, and remember I'm on 205 rubber



KT

Fastest lap ever at Laguna from GGR on 205s was Hank Watts in his old 911S motored '72 911. He did a 1:48+

Thats about as close to pro driver as you are going to get

I did 49s and 50s in my 914-6 2.7RS on 205s (not a professional driver )
That was a street legal car that still had full interior and CD player, heat and was driven to and from every event.