I couldn't resist creating this anonymous poll!

I wonder if you will get any responses Grant?

An interesting poll considering all the discussions we have had lately about rules and classification...

nope, class me w/ the regular 2liters...

I think you would get a lot of votes for:

I use creative interpretation of the rules.

Nope...no need to cheat for me...no amount of cheating would overcome my lack of talent.

As a driver....I suck!....

What's funny is I build pretty good relationships with mechanics who work on my car. I hear about all the stuff that goes unreported in our region. I have been encouraged not to report some of the modifcations on my car by several mechanics saying everyone does this. I refuse to knowingly under report modifications. I recently realized that last year I misclassified my car due to not properly classifying conversion (I started with 914/6 base rather than 1.8), but it wouldnt have changed my overall classification last year.

I know in talking with many inexpereinced GGR particpants that they under report. Many people just class their car on base points when they infact have suspension or tire mods. I even know of a certain 997 driver who classed his car as a Boxster at an event last year!

Example of a creative interpretation?

I know a guy with a '98 Boxster with a factory 996 (3.4L) conversion...car used to belong to a factory rep...
the new owner knows about the motor but still classes the car as a stock 2.5L.
He is a smart guy....doesnt he think anyone he has told about his car looks at the points? Go figure.
Every mechanic in this area can tell you some pretty interesting stories. Especially from the late '80s and '90s.
Even some local machinists have been known to tell you about some tricks.

Problem with our current points system is that some folks are making an honest attempt to point their cars but there is so much interpretation out there that you can completely mis-class your car without really meaing to....like the engine swap/increase section.

not intentionally. takes the fun out of it, somehow ...
Andy

naw.. just build a bad ass car, label it as "stock until proven otherwise" and have your oponents go at it..

Let em figure it out..

cheating at the club-level (especially AX/TT) seems pretty fucking retarded.

You would be really surprised Nathan...

really? wow, that surprises and disappoints me. -- there's NOTHING on the line. no $$$, no sponsorship, no career -- at best one would get some local attention.

hard to flat-out cheat in the kart world. won't make it past the scales, won't make it out of parc ferme. engines can be ripped open at whim. that's not to say that there aren't some gray areas that people are happy to exploit...

amazing what some folks will do and spend for a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

We don't cheat, we just might have a few things not covered anywhere in the points system or rules...

that is certainly an interesting comment...if they are not covered by the rules how about just filling us all in?
Maybe we can all learn something

that makes sense to me. there are a lot of suspension tricks and weight removal issues that are not covered in the rules.

That would be breaking the NDA.

I'd just say our car is the result of an meticulous attention to detail. Many small things like chiseling out every single scrap of body sealant from the floors, doors, underside, engine bay, front trunk, probably a good few hundred hours of work lightening every scrap on the car, isn't something counted anywhere on a rules or points sheet.
There are many other little goodies there, more than I can count which all add up to make it such a complete package. Anything that can be lowered in the car has been lowered, everything that can be moved towards the middle has been moved towards the middle, however we take nearly the same points as the 914 owner who took out his passengers seat and floor mats.
Take Andy's car for example. Last I remember his street driven 914 had nearly the same number of points as us because when he took a couple pieces out of the interior that counted as "stripping the interior" or somesuch.
That's the kind of thing I mean.

and that is exactly what is wrong with our current rules....
too many loop holes when it comes to lightening.
Only 20 points to strip your interior....
no padding, no door panels, no back pad, no carpet...20 points
to do what you folks did,,,,,20 points.
there needs to be more granularity with respect removing weight, DOT R tires, and a few other items. 100WR RA1s should not get the same points as 710s.

removing your windshield and or the entire windshield frame should be points....but it isn't right now.

It helps when you (royal you) has a major part in writing the new rules....doesn't it?

...NDA

Booyah!!!

What about stiffening, last year my class it was +1 now +3, this is NASA TT/x but the system works the same, just closer point spreads. But I used the most gray area in stiffening. Which continues on to this day. I have to carry 2150 lbs., but I can weigh in at that weight so the goal for me is use it the best I can. Lower it, replace it with stiffening, or other beneficial parts.

I am tearing through the final rules today, and we will find the Grays and exploit them.

I push the limits everywhere, not just in racing. Cheat no, I take all my points, but I use them to the best of their specific abilities. So stiffening for 1+ lead to rear arm pickup stiffening, sway bar reinforcements. And an egmann kit, now a roll bar with a few well placed added bars to make the chassis that much better with out breaking the rules and taking more points. I also max my points out for my class. If you going to run run hard, run long, and don't leave anything behind.

Kart people are the biggest cheaters. There is a whole industry of ceramic bearings that are made to look like standard bearings so people can cheat. Most kart cheaters are so good you can't tell.

Do you think I run X prepared because I am dishonest?
I could run D Street Prepared and litterally kick ass over everyone. You don't get to beat your friends by cheating to many times before they take it personal.

I am building the fastest car I can. Class it wherever I'm in it for TTOD cuz PAX is for slow kids.

You guys have done a great job making a super competitive car. And it goes without saying that it must have taken a huge amount of work to get it all done.

I, and I know Bill as well, have always thought your group showed great team effort. Very impressive.

so true -- but that's not flat-out lying about the big numbers and such. the important things are hard to get past inspection -- the details are "gray". want to cheat? go vintage racing!


back to blyholder/hamilton, the little blue car team has their shit together, no doubt. they've deserved every one of their wins.

There's just a group of us this year that are going to make them work harder for that win.

The competition director for our local POC got caught cheating just before the last event. He ended up resigning his post. I don't know why but they still gave him the class championship. He's in my class, but I don't care, I'm a backmarker to him.

Rather ironic that he was the ''competition director" don't you think?

the guy who is supposed to help administer the rules for competition...at least in our region of PCA

Guys.

Get some old pictures from famous race cars of the 70's.

Note. IMSA, SCCA, etc. are NOT allowed any sort of front spoiler. This means formula-1 spoilers all the way to tiny lips on the bodywork.

'Nother note. They all have them.

Cheating isn't just wrong. It's tradition. Carry the flame, men.

EDIT: Just running a higher displacement and not telling the officials is retarded. It's way too easy to catch, too simple, and it doesn't even necessarily benefit you at all. Cheat smart, not cheap.

at the end of the day, the fact remains that very few people at the club level are really going to bond your car and tear it down.

When I built my car I built it to the rules. Later they changed my rules and I was cheating on 1 point, but I never changed my car to fit the new rules. Now they changed the rules again and I'm legal again, so I'm not a cheater anymore.

that is the real problem a constantly moving target.

Amen to that brother you are preachin to the choir

I read somewhere in a magazine where a few "old" SCCA racers where taking about that. I really got a kick out of one "old" chaps comment... " what do you mean ...cheating?...I thought we were racing?...and not trying to go to heaven.." One point of view...

Racing is all about cheating.

There are more production "F" class cars that should be in GT3 or even GT2 class than you can count, maybe all of them at any given PCA Club Race.

Our little 200 hp 2000 lb 914 however, has to run in GT3 where it is TOTALLY uncompetitive. GT3 is full of 2000 lb 500 HP cars that can pull 9000 rpm.

That is why we only do DE stuff, and go as fast as we can, and work on beating our OWN lap times (IE improving our driving skills).

Winning races (especially ones with no prize money, or even a trophy) at any cost (ie cubic dollars and cheating on the rules) is all about ego gratification, not competing fairly.

Remember Vince L.? "Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing", and "Show me a good looser, and I'll show you a LOOSER".

Heck yeah! PAX is for the slow kids like me! It gives us a fighting chance against the crazier cajuns. C stock baby. I can't wait for the 24th! how many other people can start their season this early?

Not intentionally... Mr. Baker pointed out that I had missed a few things when I classed my car on the GGR site. I reclassed it the next chance I got. It doesn't much matter to me though... I am more interested in beating the 914's and not really aware of who is in my class. I really gauge my performance by how close I can get to TTOD which is usually Steve N. in my little world. SCCA is a different feeling though. I seem to be in a class with Miatas and apparently inexperienced Miata pilots because I have beaten them pretty consistently.

Anyone know what kind of additive they used?

http://www.showbuzz.cbsnews.com/stories/20...in2480661.shtml

I have no idea what the additive was, however my opinion is that the whole thing must be fake or set up or something. It just doesn't make sense that someone with as much experience as this guy or his crew would imagine for a minute that they could get away with this.

A few possible scenarios:
1) He was set up by whoever put it in to make him look bad.
2) He was actually stupid enough to think they wouldn't check his gas ( VERY unlikely)
3) It's a fake publicity stunt, and NASCAR is trying to ride the "performance enhancing drugs" media craze. This isn't impossible since, if I remember correctly, NASCAR is owned by one of the companies that does Pro Wrestling.

weird - I don't think it was directly in the fuel. They said a tech found it reaching in the manifold to check for loose parts (which btw, what does that mean? There are no parts inside of an intake manifold) so I guess that maybe meant they pulled the carb/spacer/plate or whatever and he was reaching in to make sure he didn't drop a nut down there or something???

Anyway, he found it in the intake, which implies to me maybe it is some sort of "putty" with octane boosters in it that when the fuel/air mixture passes thru the intake runner it blends a little bit in at a time... and wasn't directly in the fuel or injected into the manifold. I mean, you really wouldn't be able to inject into the manifold as that would be almost impossible to visually hide anything on those "spider" intakes they have now unless they machined something into the bottom plate and had lines running on the underside of the manifold/internal to the valley area.

He seems like a pretty standup guy so I really can't imagine he had anything to do with that. Toyota crews just knew they were gonna suck and somewhere some guys got a dumb idea. You can bet Toyota is TICKED over that and the other teams that got caught.

edit - oh yeah, and on the point of cheating, IMHO I don't care about rules as much as what is basic to all on a human level = respect for others - if you are knowingly cheating you are an asshole and scum of the earth. Period. And you know who you are. You have no respect for your fellow racer and I have no respect for you. May the gods of kharma put you into the wall and leave you with a C2 fracture. I understand if someone makes a mistake in classifying their car and fixes it and moves on, but if you knowingly do that, you are shit.

On that note, I race to have fun and enjoy company of others with that same passion, so win or lose, I just want to have a good time and maybe that is why cheating is just so far out of my realm of reality.

PCA Parade Auto-xs I have seen peiple loose postions due to protests. And I know people who have protested in hopes of bumping up to grab the trophy. It was a low ball dirty move I did not like it then and still don't, PCA tech shoould catch these things in stock classes. True you can't tell all of them, but this was an EFI system, that was never offered on a 914. But that is okay in 93 I had to give a 914 concours judge a little crap for saying his car was a 914-6. It took me two seconds to bust that bubble, lets see a 1971 914-6 with out the proper S/N number Just calll it what it was a conversion and move on, it was a nice looking conversion, but to try and pass it off as a real -6 give me a break.

Unfortuantly cheating happens at all levels.

And it seams fame, and greed get a lot of people wraped up.

When I was doing AX every other month with the riverside region PCA, the little kid in me thought "I could just class myself as A stock and get a little advantage." But, over what? I'm the only 914 that runs in A class. After adding swaybars that bumped me to... A stock. Great.

Now with the soon-to-be-rollin engine, I will be bumped to C prepared, a class where I have some competition. So it actually benefits me to classify my car accurately.

The kid in me thought: "I can get a bit of an advantage by not claiming some points."

But the Man in me thought: "Why not be honest and have some real competition?"

Cheating truly takes away from the skill of a driver. It shows that the person doing such really mis-spent their time looking for loopholes or playing with their pocketbook than being a better driver -- and to me that's what racing (TT/Club Race/AX/Daytona) is all about, who is the best driver?

with my 2056 build with stock D-jet I could have continued to class my car as last year....lets face it. It will look totally stock from the outside.
But the honest part of me jumped in and said why not class it with some very high HP cars and still whip there butts....

So, I have bumped up 3 classes in GGR/Zone 7 PCA classifications. It will be a little more challenging this year. Boxsters on M030 suspensions and DOTRs will be some of my competition.

Demick's car isnt much different than yours and he has placed in top ten when he drives GGR events with his 2056cc with stock injection. You shouldnt have any problems going after similar times as him.

If those Boxsters do beat you I'm going to be worried about you losing your driving sharpness.

we should be pretty comparable

my car has Mahle cylinders and KB pistons, I think Demick used the Chinese P/Cs and he runs SSIs and muffler where as I have Eurorace headers.
I believe he runs an off the shelf Webb cam where I have a Raby 9550.
he runs 6 inch wheels I run 5.5s
he has an adjustable front sway bar and I have a stocker.

but overall the cars should be pretty even.

now as to the drivers.

I generally abhor cheating.

But I will probably cheat when (if) I run AX this year. The PO put in hydraulic lifters and a cam. I believe that puts me into SM2 per the SCCA rules used by the local club.

I'll justify this because I’ve only been to one AX before so I’ll just be giving points to whoever I run against. Here the more people you beat the more points you get.

The biggest reason I’d cheat is I’d rather run with and work corners with the other 914 owners, X-19, and MG owners who run the historic class than the Corvette C6 owners in SM2.

Matt don't worry about it, that Hyd. cam is doing you no favors in the performance arena so I don't think your going to be in trouble. Now if you where running a 2270 with stock EFI, or aftermarket EFI disguised to look like the stock EFI then that would be bad.

Kind of wierd, in some PCA regions/zones they don't specify the points for injection. Here it used to be if you went from carbs to FI, you got some points. But FI to carbs... no penalty. Changed this year to go both ways.

BUT there is no clarity on switching from one FI system to another in my area... FI is FI appearantly.

I'm not worried. I won't get protested becuase my driving will suck and they will get extra points for beating me.

But technically I'll be cheating. And it has the "hot" hydraulic cam that works with stock FI.