Dr Dodger? What the...? ..youre not going to help me prove T4's suck? Man! What a trader! Its a lonley road I drive trying to talk some sense into you T4 fanatics. FYI its going to take more than Steve's car and a roller cam to jump on a hot Califonia track and beat 914-6 in a day long test of reliability and top end power.

I like Nathans idea if you all think Raby roller cam T4's are so great, pool your best T4 drivers, your money (lots of it) and drive the NASA 25 hours of T Hill. Guess what? It will never happen as Jake wouldnt risk everyone seeing the reality of a cooked T4 motor so early in a race. FYI a real Porsche motor powered car won the 25 hour event last year. ...Let me see ...do I want to race a car with a German engineered motorsport engine or some hopped up VW motor with roller cams bult in a barn by some kook in Georgia? If it was my money I'd bet on the Porsche engineered six motor having a chance of winning a 25 hour race. Seems to me all the proof in the world shows Porsche six cylinder motors winning real professional races as opposed to a couple T4's racing in silly amatuer fly weight SCCA stuff where skill levels are suspect at best.

Maybe in ten years Jake will have a real motor with some actual accomplishments behind it in professional motorsports, but right now its just a bunch of puffy chested talk from our overall clad buddy. I still say no way no how is a V Dub T4 with roller cams a substitute for a well developed six cylinder Porsche motor with its far superior racing heritage and pedigree. Its going to take some proof to change my mind. I have tasted the sweet refined nector of the Porsche™ Six and I cant say I'm willing to go back to the T4 bathwater swill any time soon.

Mark has got the right idea!!!!!!!

Yep! Dont go crazy on me though. ...What? You want me to put a Raby RPG motor in my Porsche? I'd rather burn in hell for eternity or have fire ants eat my eyeballs or dip my feet in molten lava.

Grant,just wondering if you saw this??

LOL! What you think I have actually driven any of the tracks I talk about? Thats certainly not my MO.

I have driven Laguna Seca twice. And Infineon 4 times. Cant remember my time as times are fairly irrelevant to me. Think I did something in the 1:50ish range on Laguna ...maybe less?

Geez Grant, take a history lesson. Porsche AG did all the design engineering for the type 4 engine for VW. Yep VW did mass produce it but its a 4 cylinder design that was done a few years after the six was designed. Porsche has poured tons of money into the six engine design now for 40 years and Jake has done alot of out of pocket engineering in his backwoods shack for 10 years taking the 4 to new levels. Why dog him???
They are both freakin engines and who cares what the hell is stamped on the valve covers like is means anything magic.....
With Nikkies, roller lifters and CNC heads I know a type 4 will last your so called "test" as it will have all the advantages a six has.

No my fair weather T4 freind you need the history lesson. Can you list any factory backed professional motorsport campaigns by Porsche with the VW T4? ... .... ... ...Crickets chirping.

T4 is a fine little street motor. Lest I remind you I have put over 250,000 miles on them over the past 25 years and think the world of them for the street. Its when Jake starts spouting nonsense about T4's being a good racing platform that can out power a six and have even better reliability that I call BS.

And the name stamped on a motor means a lot to me. It tells me I have years of motorsports engineering excellence behind me as opposed to cheap reliable street transportation hopped up by a back yard mechanic.

You come off as some elitist with references to Jake as if he is nothing more than some country bumpkin in coveralls. Like he is beneath you in some way. He works harder than just about anyone, to better the aircooled arena for all of us. His enthusiasm is unparalleled and his knowledge is above many. He walks the walk and talks the talk. I have yet for you to tell any of us what you have built or contributed with your own hands to the group as a whole. Or would that hurt your manicure?

Obviously you also have to use witty euphemisms to try and make your candy ass feel superior. I'll bet you were born with your pinky in the air. Does your mommy powder your shorts for you before each race , to keep you from chafing?

I'd like to get eyeball to eyeball with you also. I'd love nothing more to give you a unforgettable reminder how to respect people. Obviously your parents seriously failed teaching you courtesy. If you have nothing to say good..then say nothing.

classic case of "puberculosis" ...
Andy

actually, yes, there was ... just ask Rich Bontempi about that ...
Andy

I don't get threads the fall apart like this. I mean, come ON! You want it, then great GO BUY IT! You can have an RSR and go real fast for a real long time.
Now for a 35 + year old car, anything goes, you no like? bugger off then, already!
Jeebuz, I just don't get some peoples kids!

I'm afraid youre mistaken.

by all means, don't take my word for it! ask him next time you see him ...

back in the day when Scott Yeaman was working Pit-Crew for Rich.
i'll let him tell you how he was approached by porsche and asked if they could sponsor him. and they did.

but like i said, Rich is much better at telling those stories than i am, so go ahead, ask him ...
Andy

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Dr. Dodger!!! Don't remind me. I have to be Dr. Dodger for 7 straight days starting Friday in Florida...

I don't disagree with you at all. I have both a 4 and a 6 and they both have their strong points...

Jake is doing something no one has done in years with methods no one had when the engine was contemporary. Although one could argue that the engine was contemporary in the 1940's when Dr. Porsche designed it and a compromise when it went into the 914... Jake is developing the TypeIV using modern technique and methods that have been proven in other areas of the automotive world. As a business practice, that is insane. His customer base is dwindling. He needs to develop Honda engines for ricers to make business sense.
Let him do it... The 4 cylinder cars are so nicely balanced and not nearly as brutish as their 6 cylinder cousins. I like both.
Everyone looks at the world through their own eyes. Those eyes are always looking at things differently than yours. Our worlds are always colored by our experiences.
I like the thought that Jake could make a TypeIV that could compete with a flat six. I would no more tell him he was a fool than tell A. Graham Bell that the idea of a machine that could remotely communicate was impossible. Let him create. Cool thing about Jake is that he tries to break it once he makes it. I don't doubt he would take that challenge...

In the mean time, if I recall correctly Tupac had some holes put in him by Biggie... ALEDGEDLY... So you two both tone it down.

Thats not a factory campaign based professional team in a real race series. I think this says more about the T4 when this is the only example you can sight. Geez. So sad.

At around the same time Rich Bontempi was approached and supported by Porsche there was another autocrosser in Northern California approached by Porsche. Dwight Mitchell was a factory supported autocrosser. This gives credence to Rich Bontempi's story that the factory was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Dwight Mitchell's old orange 911 is still around Northern California. It is so clean and sexy people want to lick it... Still fast too.

Ah but Dwight's car be a trick slick Six...
and Rich's effort was SCCA I believe.

Yes. Dwight's car was a six. My point was that Porsche was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Sure they were Rob, they were way into all forms of racing then, and were using it to sell more cars....race on Sunday, sell on Monday.




I have seen Dwight's car driven in anger by Dwight himself years ago before he sold it and the shop.

No Dr. Dodger. Dwight was sponsored by a local Porsche Audi dealership and his car was not even close to a profesional factory Porsche race team car. It was an incredible amatuer racing car effort.

You must have forgotten I was at AX and SCCA races he competed in back in the 70's. He did kick everyones butt in AX.

Creative history rewrite however!

I didn't write it or rewrite it... That was that German guy... I simply heard it and chose to believe it. I am skeptical of salesmen but in general, I try to start from the premise that other people are truthful. I heard the story from someone other than Rich.
I remember Paul Newman's Trans Am effort back in those days didn't look all that professional either. Other than the RV Newman was in for the weekend, and the white team shirts, they were just good old boys.

and you would know that how? sniffing too much looking at that crystal meth ball again?

you seem to have no trouble trash talking things you don't know anything about.

like i said above, ask Rich about it. i doubt you will ... just a hunch ...
Andy

Guess its the same cluesless crystal meth ball that makes you think there was a Porsche factory based 914-4 race car campainged in a professional race series. When you find out where and when that happened let us know I'm sure the club historians would be very interested in this incredible revelation from our "resident expert".

I'm guessing Grant is laughing his ass off about how worked up you guys sound.

Anyway... a big ol' from me.

Like moths to a flame it is. LOL! OK enough fun and games. Jake, lets hear more about the roller cams.

like you is some factory backed race team......

The T4 was never meant to be a race engine, just VW's modern workhorse replacing the T1. Since the muchco special 914/6's didn't sell for shit and sat rotting on the docks, Porsche did a rush engine program to build a 4 banger replacement, the 2.0L type 4.
Porsche also dropped the Factory 6 race program then as all the racing didn't sell cars.

The fact is Jake and a few others are taking the type 4 to a new level, sorry you can't see that.

Mark hit it on the head.

Grant is sitting at home laughing at how worked up everyone is getting.

He has been playing Devil's Advocate and you guys keep going for it.
You have to admit he gets everyone thinking about it, now, doesn't he?

Its funny how you don't think lap times are important. How do you test or make changes to your set up and know there faster.

I'm laughing, but not at home. I have been stuck at the office late on a few very boring confrence calls with Asia the past two days. You guys kept my eyes from glazing over talking about company integration strategies.

had to check in on the drama.....again..........
nite nite.....
nite jake
nite grant....
and every one inbetween

I havent touched my setup in two years. People keep telling me to corner balance, etc, but I'm too cheap to have somone do that. I'm more about having fun. I really dont focus on car setup much. I just set my hot tire temps and dont touch the car for the rest of the day - I just drive around issues that crop up.

Do you think if I keep track of times it will help me get faster? Maybe I'll give that a try.

I love it when all the "experts" get together and have all these inane arguments. Hey! 6, 4, V8. Who gives a rats ass. If you like it, drive it. I have a 4 and a six and there are things I like about each. To say that one is better than the other is horse $hit.

Cheers, Elliot

I purposely laid off this topic yesterday to see what would happen, the thread went from an informative one about technology that has NEVER been utilized in the TIV engine before to just another 4/6 debate with the same old players jumping in.

First off, let's establish the fact that Grant's posts about my engines are unsubstantiated, he has never purchased an engine from me, but we did chat and go over pricing and etc over two years ago. He has never driven one of these engines and is using his inflated opinion to degrade my work.

The next point: I have never specialized in race engines, I FUCKING HATE to build them, I hate them so much and the issues that they can cause that Len and I decided to build our own car to use for R&D work and to race our engines so others didn't have to. We all know that the ability of an engine on the track is utilized by those in my world to further their product awareness more than anything, generally when the cars and engines that are being raced don't share much at all with their streetable counterparts.

In my experience, racers are not tuners- when people look at a failed engine that occured during competetition one must realize that the builder had a role in that engine's life, but that the tuner/installer had much more to do with it. Some of the dumbest mistakes we have ever seen have been made by racers, some that have been racing for over 20 years and still don't know what a lean engine smells like, how to tune by EGT or how to flush an oil system and pre oil an engine before restart. ALL my work can literally be wasted by one stupid oil system routing choice and no matter how much I preach about set up racers don't listen until they have a problem.

These reasons coupled to the fact that the amount of effort that is necessary to build a race engine correctly are the main reasons why I turn down most every race engine I could build, we now only support two racers and our own effort due to this.

Of course we have built our own car to campaign in SCCA, F production. Len and I have teamed up to divide the cost and responsibility and he is going to be the driver. My entire responsibility is to build and tune the engine (s). I am doing this because I have to, not really because I want to, gathering the data from this is important to my program development. As always the old slogan "Win on Sunday, sale on Monday" comes into play, this is the job I love and one that I want to do and continue to grow for the rest of my life so I must sometimes do a few things that I don't like to be able to continue this.

When we are at the track I won't be there to joke around, have fun, bullshit or drink beer- from the minute I pull into that gate I consider the event a combat zone with every single competitor the enemy, combat is not a social event. If anyone ever passes by our paddock I'll warn you now that I won't be up for much conversation, I'll shake your hand and get back to work and thats the extent of what you should expect to get from me because I'll be in my zone with one objective on my mind and that objective won't be making friends.


As a final point I want to bring up something that Grant said earlier about my engines being used in professional motorsports... Well, that is never going to happen, everyone we deal with are enthusiasts, some more serious than others but none on a level anywhere near being professional. Last I checked professional's didn't race 30+ year old cars for anything more than to have a good time.

I have much more fun and have developed my program especially for the street car enthuisiast that just wants to have good reliable fun. I could care less about championships, race wins or anything else involved with competition. What makes me happy is designing an engine that develops 100HP more than it did in stock form and can be driven 3,450 miles at an average speed of 76 MPH and maintain COOLER than stock head, oil and exhaust gas temps in every climate from Georgia to the midwest and through the desert. Doing these things and never needing a wrench placed on the engine for the entire trip is what I consider an accomplishment. Going from one side of the country to the other while doing these things and being able to accomplish a 94 MPH 1/4 mile pass on a 95 degree day just tops that off.

Someone earlier mentions that "Jake is a country bumpkin"... I'll proudly take that title because I grew up on the same piece of property where my facility is located today, I could have stayed in California but I chose to get back away from the crowds, stupid laws and etc. Call me a country bumpkin all you want, but I'll take my freedom and the things I appreciate from it any day over what I experienced on the west coast or any of the 19 countries I visited while serving the country that we all should be proud to live in.

I personally like walking out the back door of my shop to hear crickets and watch the 8 point white tail buck that I have been trying to get in my sights for the past few seasons.

So.....I'll continue doing the things I do and people like Grant will continue inspiring me to do these things, develop these engines and get the job done. It takes time, money, perseverence and enthusiasm to overcome the challenges that I face daily with this type of development and that all equates to months and years of effort and I love every damn minute of it.

I appreciate the criticism and moreover I appreciate the extra little bit of drama that Grant tossed into the thread that kept people coming back for more- nothing get us new inquiries like a promoter like Grant and it's entertaining!

Well said Jake, keep up the good work. I have been following this thread, I think you took the high road by laying off it.

Well said indeed
I think that all of us (the 6 fanatics included) should appreciate the efforts you have made in developing the Type IV engine. That work has the potential to make a car that is a blast to drive on the street and on the track and yet has a reliability the same or greater than the original. The more improvements we can make on these cars, the more of these cars will stay on the road year after year. And that is really what this club is about, right?
It's about the people, sure, but it's the cars that led to the creation of the group.
We all share a love of these cars that has led to long nights, busted knuckles, and more frustration that we thought possible. I daresay also that we all share that feeling when you get behind the wheel and just drive (or in the case of people in the midst of a long conversion, sit behind the wheel and imagine that your car isn't on jackstands ).
But, bicker if you will. And to contibute I suggest adding another topic of discussion (in addition to Type IV, Porsche 6, Other 6, V8, Porsche V8, Subie, Chevy, other 4, and so forth): The human powered 914. It may be slow, but it uses no gas, it complies with even the most stringent of smog regulations, and is good for the health of the person "driving." So make your 914 environmentally friendly. Take out that pesky engine and start pushing it today!

Exactly. The more options are out there, the more diverse the cars can become..

I could care less about comparing engines, all that matters to me is how we get from stock to MassIVe. The reality is a 10% displacement increase can net a 125% power increase on pump gas and thats what I considerl an accomplishment.

I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been asked 10,000 times before but is a billet rocker really superior to a cast one & why? Or is it more economical/practical to make a custom rocker out of a piece of billet over casting one?

People keep confusing roller rockers and roller cams/lifters.. This post is about roller cams and lifters, we haven't discussed the rockers at this point.

God bless America. I'm just happy to you agree with me for once. ..And Jake since when havent I been your best promoter? Take a look at how many views your thread has had since my postings. Dude, I should be on your payroll. LOL! Keep up the great work!

Just figured I'd share the dyno graph we just snagged from a freshly prepped 2056 TIV. This power was made on 87 octane pump gas with only 8.1:1 CR, it was designed to run on this octane, but I onl;y promised the customer 125HP and 120 lbs of torque.

This was made on the very first run, I am sure it still has 10% more left in tuning alone.
Click to view attachment


Keep in mind this is a bone stock (2.0) bottom end with just a set of 96s, RAT 9010 flat tappet cam and LE 160 heads. Not bad for an engine that with 70cc less displacement made 40% less power.
Just figured I'd use this opportunity to share a bit, thanks again to Grant for keeping the thread going strong :-)

That plot is dead sexy. I hope your customer will share some feedback on the new engine once he/she's had a chance to drive it...

This one belongs in a VW thing :-)

Since we are talking about air-cooled engines, these dyno results should include a head temperature plot. A stock 2.0 HT baseline would be handy as well. Blah blah blah lots of reasons it wouldn't be accurate, correct, why it can't be done, etc..., but the bottom line is it would give a potential buyer some kind of reference and give some indication the engine could make that power-- not just across a parking lot before it melts but also hold up for a competitive endurance run. John

Jake, I am confused, but not about rockers. Is not your second post in this thread filled w/ a bunch of pictures of a billett rocker? All I wanted to know was why billett over cast?

What kind of induction? That's sweet power for a small low compression motor. It would be perfect in a Thing.

Stock rockers are notoriously bad in terms of accurate ratio. It take a large sampling and a lot of measuring to find 8 nearly identical stock rockers. These billet rockers will not have the same issue. 8 identical billet rockers, right out of the 'box'.

So billett is superior over cast because of consistancy. Thanks, I did not know this.

technically - he is just controlling tolerances better than the factory did. I am sure he could cast up rockers and also maintain tighter tolerances than the factory did

This goes back to my original question in that billet/CNC is easier, more practical & economical over casting. It has to be easier to get consistancy out of a CNC as opposed to a casting mold. Anyway, no more hijack, back to roller lifters.

On a serious note. Just for clarification my point is that Porsche had years of factory racing expereince with their six cyclinder motors in professional motorsports that they used in designing their production six cylinder motors over the years. Far more resources than you could ever throw at a T4 now - thats my point T4 was never used back in the 70's in factory motorsports programs and it isnt now. That point leaves you with limited resources and data points to develop a true big bore race motor that could compete with a well developed six. A reasonable person would recognize this and not fualt you for focusing development on street motors and a couple special application amatuer race motors. Hell I'd buy one of your motors for a street car any day! Unfortunately when I was looking I was building a track car and your application just wasnt appropriate compared to a small bore six.

There is a reason why the Porsche six cylinder is so well developed in comparison to the T4. Porsche's primary production race car from 1965 to the 1990's was the 911 series with aircooled sixes.

You have done a great job with T4 street motors Jake. I just think its a strech to say a hopped up T4 is going to be as effective as a Porsche six with years of development in racing/track day enviroment. You have always impressed me as a person who knows his limitations and you make great powerplants for those seeking a high quality street/AX solution. And for those luckly enough I'm sure you'll make a nice independent effort to develop a competive T4 for SCCA production class racing.