We are using billet to make the new rockers for several reasons...
One is the production numbers we will see, tooling up to make these rockers from a forging would cost well over 100K, the die alone would be 35K of that easily.

Another reason is for versatility, we can alter rocker design with the drawings, upload the program change and make 8 rockers that are one off- for my style of engine building versatility in components is crucial, so this is a huge plus.

The rocker can also be made exactly how we want it, we can make rockers lighter or heavier and we can make them from Titanium, Ally, Chromoly or stainless steel- yet again versatility is crucial as these could go on a low rebvving hogh torque engine or a 9,000 RPM screamer and both those applications requires a different mindset and different components.
Having 100% total control over a component is a dream world for a guy like me.

the MAIN reason these are being made is the fact that the supply of 1.7 style rockers are drying up, the core cost for these components is approaching the cost of these billet units and with the used set ups you still have to modify them, pick 8 of the closest ratio possible and that takes time and time is a precious commodity.

John my dyno sessions are not about power, they are about efficiency and finding the point where the engine is fully optimized with it's tuning. We always find the sweet spot for CHT, EGT, oil temp and overall power output and generally shoot for the flattest, fattest torque curve possible as well- not the highest HP that we can attain.

I have temperature plots for all my engines, here is 3,450 miles worth of graphs for you to absorb www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry look at all the legs of that trip and become amazed, those temps were derived with my Race-technology 16 channel data logger on my most recent R&D trip crosscountry in mid 2006. Here is an example, keep in mind that was a 2270cc, 170HP engine that was built for the Hot VWs magazine feature story "Type 4 Torquer". Look at the average sppeds and the distance, thats pretty hard to do in a 40 year old Beetle with a 4 speed tranny.



here are some temps, pay attention to the temperature average as well as the delta between cylinder head temps, my biggest CHT variance over the entire trip data logged was 18 degrees


I take this same approach with all our new engine base combinations, we know more about these engines than a Heart Surgeon knows during a bypass surgery if we are on the new dyno expanded with our data logger in place- no joke. I am a data freak that builds engines that run COOLER than stock while making double the usable power and thats all in the combo!

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

Yes, I take thise as serious as life it's self and know when we create a combination and tune it that it can't be done any better, by anyone.

I've got to quit drooling on the keyboard....

Jake- OK, yeah that is what I would call comprehensive data! Thanks for posting it. John

I don't post here often, but I couldn't resist. I must say that this has been enteratining. Jake...for a minute there I thought somehow you might have become related to or actually turned into George Hussey....

I applaud Jake for his work to make the Type IVs a better powerplant, even though I think it costs way too much. Given the money it would have cost me to go to an oil-leaking six, or as Grant says an RPG, I decided to go with proven power and reliability, the Subie WRX.....blasphemy... However, for the purists, nobody I know of has the smarts to squeeze the hp / torque out of these engines for street cars than Jake does, IF you're willing to pay for it. I considered it, but it wasn't for me. None of the 3 (or more) options is cheap.

Grant.... not that it matters, or is relevant to this thread, but I doubt seriously that your 2.4 six could outrun my 914/WRX down the back straight at Sebring....or for that matter anywhere else. I can drive it all day over 100mph and it will not get over 190 degrees, and get 30mpg but that's a different topic.

Almost forgot......Jake...do us all a favor. If you're ever within arms length, give Left-Coast Grant a good 'ol Southern Devil Dog punch in the mouth, would you? I have a son who's a Marine, and anybody who insults the Marines or the military around me is likely to get their ass kicked, whether they mean it or not. Grant deserves a whooping even if he wasn't serious.

AND.....Grant...just so you'll know, many of us here are "country bumpkins" too. I'm not from Georgia, but Tennessee, AND I have been known to wear OVERALLS when I WORK ON MY OWN CAR.

Anyway...thanks for the entertainment. Added a couple of years to my life (laughter).

Ed aka W9R1
1973 914/2003 WRX power

By the way Jake...that wasn't a slam on George Hussey (AA), or you either. I've done business with George for over 10 years, and I personally think George is a great guy. It's just that I've never seen anybody else get blasted like that on this site except for him. You should both get "He Hate Me" shirts.

Still laughing...

Ed aka W9R1

Ed, thanks for the post... As we have stated a few times in this thread the performance for most "sane" engines built via MassIVe theory have been dropping a tad. Most of the items that run the ciosts up are not internal engine parts, a good example is that ne wWeber carbs now cost around 1K bucks, etc, etc.

Some of my engines are just insane, i sometimes look at the money that some people are shelling out on an engine in disbelief, some of the cars these engines are going into are 85-100K buck Beetles believe it or not! ^Today a good running, restored early VW Bus starts at around 25-30K and they are selling like mad!

What we have done is oncrease the performance for the cost, since inflation keeps us from dropping prices at least we can add power, which reduces the cost Vs output aspect. Mycomplete engine prices have not went up in 3 years, but todays 2270cc engine makes 30-40 HP MORE than it did even 2.5 years ago- at the same cost.

A good example is this 2056 I have pictured and described. This engine could easily be sold in kit form for just over 4K bucks with CNC heads, all necessary components for a complete longblock. Keep in mind that most Porsche shops are building BONE STOCK, totally undeveloped engines for 6.5-7K today, one particular 914 specialty shop is now getting 8K for a bone stock rebuild- for 8K we can get 160HP in complete trim, so if you do the comparisons what we are doing is CHEAPER and SMARTER than most everyone thinks.

Oh yeah...I know about what stuff costs. I'm working on completely rebuilding my 3rd 914. That's why I do most of my own work. The guy that had my car spent $7000 on a "used" stock swap from a 1.7 to a 2.0 by one of the local shops here in Tampa in the mid-80s, and they really "rigged" some of the stuff, if you know what I mean. No question that if I was going to stay with a Type IV with big HP yours is the way to go. How about oil leaks on the 2056?

Dang....I wish the prices of the 914s would go up like the buses...

Ed aka W9R1

The only thing that causes oil leaks is improper sealants, inadequate preparation or lack of crankcase ventilation.

IOf an engine leaks one drop of oil on the dyno it doesn't leave my shop, we have had engines wth pushrod tubes start lleaking oil because the engine was so dry underneath that the tubes actually rusted through!

Oil leakage has never been an issue for us, even my tired old 5 year old 130K mile 912E engine will only leak a spot the size of a quarter after being parked for 2-3 weeks or longer.

In the Mid 1970s the BMW motorcycle Importer Butler & Smith fielded a trio of
R90S racers for the Superbike series - flat twin engines - not unlike the VW 4 engines.

Udo Gietl fitted these pushrod motors with Roller Lifters sourced from Harley Davidson - machined the cases for the Harley Guide Plates - had Chase Knight @ Crane Camshafts come up with profiles & cut roller camshafts for the engines.

DAYTONA 1975 had 1-2-3 being the BMW flat twins winning against the 4 cyl. Kawasaki monsters of the era.


Since you're crafting your own cylinder heads - think of providing some 'Rev-Kit' springs between the lifter and rocker arms.

This will keep the lifter in constant contact with the cam lobe - and control the weight of the lifter rather than having to run heavier valve springs.

What are you using to control 'cam walk' - ?


Compliments on your efforts !

"Dang....I wish the prices of the 914s would go up like the buses...

Ed aka W9R1" -[end quote]-



The 914 are what the 356 were of their time - cheap - allowing enthusiasts to participate - whereas the 911 rules out anything but cubic money.

I am very glad the 914 prices are Not escalating - elsewise - I'd go back to working on my AMC Gremlin

Grant, do you and Jake chat offline and laugh about this $hit??
Wow. This is always entertaining.
Grant: Arr.
Jake: I'm glad you keep putting up with Grant. He can talk all he wants. There's no arguing with your results.
Grant: Wait, what if Jake started building sixes? Hmmm. Wait, never mind. Next one's on me. Woot. This is fun!!!
Hey, I have an idea. We should all work out a deal to put a RAT motor into a "Team Pirate Racing" car. Whoah. Never mind.

Actually our "Rev kit" will be used to control the lifter, much like a V8. When we get to that point.


Absolutely, just like the "rev kits" found in V8 engines.


We haven't experienced any cam walk issues to date. The proprietary bushing and it's insertion tooling align the lifter exactly perpendicular to the centerline of the camshaft and thats the key to avoiding "cam walk".



We are no where near finished yet.. To date we haven't had positive results with our bushing materials and have continually hit brick walls with this aspect of the development.

The New Year will bring a 5th material change that should solve the issues. If this desn't occur we'll have to rewsort to a different lifter, different insertion method requiring CNC case machining and that will add a lot of expense.

I have been on this for 20 months now and have been stuck at the same point for the past 16 of those months- thats just part of working to get it right.....

The good news is that our cams and lifters have zero wear and all the critical aspects of camshaft end play that we were worried about have not been an issue at all..

What would be really cool is a road course version of "Pinks". Best three out of five for three lap timed runs. How about an East Coast four against a West Coast six?

After my TV experience earlier this year with the "pinks" crowd I don't want to even hear that name..

Having competitions isn't the way to prove anything, there are oo many variables and the engines are so vastly different that they can't even be compared with the same scale.

Plus, we have nothing to prove, the TIV is successful enough in other venues and convversion cars that it wouldn't hurt us much at all if I never sold another engine part to be used in a 914 application

Just as long as that last statement happens after my UPS delivery.

I guess I will have to start lying to you.

"hey it's going in a sand rail" or a beetle sumpin.

We are no where near finished yet.. To date we haven't had positive results with our bushing materials and have continually hit brick walls with this aspect of the development.

The New Year will bring a 5th material change that should solve the issues. If this desn't occur we'll have to rewsort to a different lifter, different insertion method requiring CNC case machining and that will add a lot of expense.

I have been on this for 20 months now and have been stuck at the same point for the past 16 of those months- thats just part of working to get it right.....

The good news is that our cams and lifters have zero wear and all the critical aspects of camshaft end play that we were worried about have not been an issue at all..


--------------------
Jake Raby




Ok - try this:

source a Harley Davidson mech. roller lifter & guide .

source from Chase Knight @ Crane Cams > lifter buttons.

Udo had the tops of the Harley Lifter EDM 'd - after removing
the adjusters - then pressed in the lifter buttons, the 'seats' that the
pushrod tip rides in.

I did this to a set of solid lifters as the BMW 'chilled cast iron' units fractured - had the bodies centerless ground as well...... not a big deal,
a machine shop locally did work for IBM - semi retired - has the EDM machine :

LT Carbide in Walden New York, owner is Lou Toth.
Great work - inexpensive - could do runs for you easily & inexpensively.

The H-D guides are a hardened material - so will end your bushing problems.

Once you set up for CNC - the cuts required to press in the H-D guides are minimal.

Give it a shot - I know it works and parts are available over the counter which could lower your costs as well.

Udo Gietl is in Calif. - formerly with HONDA ROADRACE - motorcycles - in the 1979 Freddie Spencer years - 'Oval Piston' road racer engine - etc.

Track him down & have a chat - great man & an interested party.


Brien Tourville
new york

That won't solve our issue....

You'd have to see the problem and the way the failure occurs to understand.

We will get it, the idea is to keep costs down and keep install simple enough that it can be done in an hour or less with NO CASE MACHINING.

For what it's worth...I used to have a 77 Pacer. Brown...ugh. What was I thinking. It was like driving a microwave.

Ed aka W9R1

AMC Pacer is collectible car in Europe. It was imported with success in France in the seventies. It has the right size for our roads, garages and parkings. BTW I love the design of theese.
French importer used to make very smart advertising



Sorry for polluting your thread ...

a Pacer was just as hot a car as the 69 Barracuda Fastback and the 924 with the large rear glass.

this is interesting. I just started reading. I am on page 9 but I can't read any more until I see Grant post some track times. what real racer forgets his track times? I know what I post in my 2.0 at Streets. I bet Jake knows what times his sponsored cars post at SCCA venues

PS. I'm glad the thread went back to the roller cam talk

So what is the basic problem, Jake? just excessive wear in the pressed in lifter bushing?

No,
we are not having any wear issues!

The issue is dislodging of the bushing in the case... Its an expansion related metallurgical issue.

There are ways to permanently solve it, but all of them are 4X as expensive as the current method, making the development too expensive to apply to all but the craziest of my engines..

That wasn't the goal.

Just let me know when it is time for the first long term road test!

somebody tell Grant that there was a profesional race series that used the type 4 engine for several years and featured many future indy race drivers. It was called Super Vee and it raced at every venue that there was from Mexico to watkins Glen to Ontario CA and it was sponsered by a major auto mfg.

there are some fantastic epoxys out there....Hilti makes some with great PSI capibilites..

or machine in a retaining ring?

I know this is old and I guess it got solved long ago. How did the race come out. And did the new alloy bushings stay in?