Hey Guys,

As I'm nearing completion of my fuel system resto on my teener...I'm faced with the choice of tires, as the first stop for me is going to be discount tire for a balancing; as the car shimmies when I get around 65 mph, then a trip to gashead motorworks for an alignment, as it pulls to the right. I was thinking, since I'm at DT, mayhaps I should put some new shoes on there.

I HATE the tires on the teener, they are 185 65 R15's from god knows who...they say HR metric. They have ZERO grip and I've almost spun the car twice because of their utter lack of traction...and my utter lack of skill


I'd like some recommendations from you guys...I was thinking of some Falken Azenis in 205 50 r 15's, but I've found on here that they are so small the engine is really revved up on the highway, and I would like to take the car to galveston a few times, and screaming engines on the highway would get annoying, as houston highway speeds are in the 80's.


Any recommendations for me that DONT involve flares, 5 lugs, or prayers to Ra, god of the sun?

Having a somewhat accurate speedo would be nice...
I'm running stock 15X5.5 Mahle's with a 2 inch drop.
This car is unlikely to see a whole lot of track time until I put my dual 40's on it...

for cheap fun 195 65x15 kumo keeps the speedo accurate sticky not good for the rain

Thanks dr914, I dont plan on EVER driving this car in the rain, but being houston you can never plan on that....How bad in the rain are we talking? The tires I have are downright hazardous when wet...

I have Pirelli P6000s as street tires that have served well on the track for my 914 currently. I have never tracked in the rain, but twice have been caught out and didn't have any troubles. Mine are in 205-60/15.

Last fall I scored a set of Fuchs to use as track wheels and I've put Azenis RT615s (205-50/15) on those. From others that I know, I am told to not drive on these if water is pooling on the road surface (ie heavy rain) as these do not evacuate water very well. But in the dry, they are supposed to be fantastic performance for how much they cost. YMMV...

I'm leaning towards Bridgstone Potenza G009's in 195/60/15

Besides the name, the reviews state that the 'ride quality' is great and road noise is low. http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/findTireD...02047&ar=60

Judging by american tastes in cars' rides...does 'improved ride quality' mean squishy and loose?

Besides the cool name, what do you guys think of that one?

I've got the Khumo Ecsta ASX's, at 195/55/VR15. They also sell them as 195/65s, if you want to keep the speedo correct. They are an all weather tire, but they still have pretty darn good dry grip, and they aren't that expensive at all. As I 'understand' it, they use a pretty soft compound, so they won't last as long as some other street tires. It depends on how it'll be used. I've been happy with them. That's all I can say.
Mark D.

BMX, are these the ones you're talking about?
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/readRevie...rd=15&ar=65

A lot of people bitch about how long they don't last, but as this is a fun car...I could give a shit, as long as they handle well

I have been using Hankook RS-Z212s for a while and I like them. Lots of grip, cheap, and available in 195-50. Yes it increases the revs a bit on the highway, but its not THAT bad and keeps me under 90 mph for the most part

Just recently I put a set of Azenis on the front and they are even stickier.

-Tony

Okay (stand on soap box)
I have been a road racer and auto -x er since the '80's...I also work for a tire manufacturer....for the last 12 years and here's the poop!

You get what you pay for.

Michelin and Bridgestone are the ONLY companies that spend billions of dollars on R & D. Some companies follow in niche areas and may even have a decent performance tire...but nobody, nobody is at the cutting edge like the BIG 2.

Having said that...you now have to figure out threough all the marketing as to whaich tire in the multitudes produced will suit your application.

Those who aren't very good drivers, or have never experienced a truly good tire will tell you about the good looking "miracle tires" cheap...stay away from the Hankook, Falkin, Nitto type stuff...looks good (but it ain't)

Toyo and Yokohama both make a decent tire for the street...Kumho used to produce low volume lines for BFGoodrich (michelin) and copied their old technology so the V700 is a decent tire. The Goodyear F1 is a nice tire (at least they make one)...Hoosier (General) make good race tires...stay away from continental and Dunlop.

Sport tires are different than Touring tires, but can have a similar speed rating and good performance while remaining quiet and smooth (you give up "turn in" responsiveness)

The Bridgestone G009 is a decent low cost street tire for a psudo sporty tire the RE960 is much better. but if Bridgestone is your brand and you're a street only guy look at the Turanza touring line...Turanza LSV ...right at home on a sports copupe like a beemer...If you want the other end the Potenza RE-01 is a great choice.

Michelin Pilot sport cups are also rated highly.

Tires are as individual as paint...get the ones that are right and you'll love them forever.

(get off soap box)

I bought Michelin Pilot 195/65/15 and like everything else I've bought for my new car, I haven't yet put them on. Mounted them on Fuchs alloys.

Car came with steel wheels and they have 165SR15 Kelly Metric's.

Paul

Thanks for that awesome response, woobn8r. What I understand you to say is that the big two are pretty much a safe bet for a tire for this car? I'd like to get some nice tires that are good and streetable. I'd like a tire that's good for the street for now as my car is not track worthy just yet (weber progressive, not good enough harness mounting, mystery meat engine with hydraulic lifters, possibly a bus engine)


You would say I'd be well served by the RE960? It would be nice to put some decent rubber on this car, as I think the stuff that's on there came from wal-mart and are best used as bumpers for tugboats...

woobn8r,

You say that Hankook, Falkin, etc are crap, but you don't really say why? Care to explain? A friend of mine that has owned a wheel and tire shop for 20 years loves the Hankooks, and has been running them on several of his Lotuses (Loti???). And he's been racing and autocrossing since he could drive, so he might now a little about tires.

I personally don't know the difference between good tires and bad tires, but I know that a lot people seem to like the Hankooks and Falkins.

Oh boy, what have I started

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just curious as to why the cheaper brands are crap. I'm in the same boat as you purple, And I've been leaning towards the Hankook RS-2s because of my friends recommendation, as well as several 914World members.

Let you in on one of the best kept 'open' secrets around.

FUZION HRi's cannot be beat - the wet traction is astounding, the road noise about completely vanishes away - they wear like iron when the alignment is in - and they are only 45 bucks each from tire rack.

How do i know?

1. I am an ASE master tech with Toyota and this is what we are turning our customers on to - they are PROVEN!

2. I have them on both my teener and my pontiac everyday driver - they are quiet and grip like a cat on carpet.

3. I have 52,000 miles on my pontiac ones and still have 63% tread remaining.

4. I live in SoFl where a rain storm means 2-4 inches will drop in about 30 minutes and I have NEVER had a hydroplane issue - NEVER

5. They are a new company formed by Bridgestone - after the firestone debacle Bridgestone took all their best talent and formed a new company "FUZION" to rebuild firestone (lost revenue cause everybody does not trust them anymore)from within, by providing the baddest ass tires at the deepest discounts imaginable - they succeeded!!

6. Just go to tirerack.com and read what 1000's of others have to rave about these tires - I have some posts on there as well ---

One of the very few best ever investments I have ever made. I took a chance on them when they first came to market. I was very low on funds and had fingers crossed - never looking back. Every car from here on out will be equipped!!

The ZR series are "SUMMER" only and have nearly zero traction when freezing, snow, and in many cases, wet. They are a ultra performance DRY tire only.

Thanks J, I'll take a look at these when I can. I need only summer tires anyway since i'm in houston.

purple

Usually by this time, someone chimes in about how they love those ugly ES100's.

I have the Fuzion ZRi in a 205/55 - 15, which lets you retain near stock profile in a 205. Not many manufactures carry this oddball size. They are a decent tire for the money, I AX with them, not a hardcore AX street tire, but they stick pretty well.

Tire Plus carries this brand if you have one local.

Fuzion ZRi

Well guys the Fuzion ZRi is a Bridgestone RE750 with a different mould...Bridgestone offered them to the tuner market to compete with low priced tires as well as to build loyalty with a newer generation....they didn't want to spend $$$ to R&D a less expensive tire...so they "borrowed" a current casing and by calling it a new sales channel (with less of a budget and not a new company...same people too) made the best secret in the industry value wise....Although your "Firestone" story was amusing...BTW Bridgestone is the Largest Tire and rubber company in the world and recovered from the voluntary recall shortly afterwards posting profits exceeding everyone in the industry...some others are still losing $$$.

MtM...The cheap tires are not new technology, the smaller companies just cannot invest the money in R&D that the big 2 can. Also their engineering is not upgraded...ok maybe a cosmetic face lift, but the casings are years out of date and nowhere near state of the art....(with the V700 victoracer proviso).

I venture to say that your dealer friend sells Hankook ...probably a few so he'd better stand behind them...but if he's a competitive auto -x guy I bet he'd get lower times with Hoosiers, BFGs, Toyo Ra1s or any other decent R compound tire....

Trust me, (I'm not making any money here) Tires to your car are like speakers to your audio system....if you go cheap it lowers the quality of the whole system...but if you have never had a good system or can't tell the difference you'll be happy with crap...and some people are.

Purple, If I were you I'd go see these tires in person...the RE960 may be too much tire for your application...I dont know if you want a soft ride or a firm one...if firm, how firm? You probably want a tire that looks good too...I think the Turanza LSV is a great touring tire for a street driven narrow body where comfort, less noise and performance are all of importance...if you want the sporty look you also get better steering response and more noise. Shorter sidewalls must be stiffer and transmit more "road feel" (all of this is in general terms of course)...I'm guessing by your original post you are looking for a balance...tires are a personal thing IMHO.

Anyone that can quickly reccomend a tire for you from the multitudes on the market without playing 20 questions first just wants your $ and doesn't really care. Car enthusiasts whether they can tell the difference or not usually care.... and in time will come to learn what they like in tires as others learn what they like in wine (it comes with experience).

But it still holds true...you get what you pay for.

It seems you save quite a bit of money buying the tires from Tirerack. For instance, the price I was quoted for the Fuzions was 58.99 from the local Firestone. Compare that with $44.00 each from Tirerack plus about $10 shipping per tire and you come out ahead. Then knock off the "road hazard" they always try to sell you. Anyone ever have any trouble getting the tire shops to mount tires you bought somewhere else?

That much I can agree with. I do, however, disagree with your comments about the Azenis. I don't know if they're on top now, but 8-12 months ago they were the grippiest hard-compound tire you could buy. If all you care about is dry traction, they are absolutely fantastic!

Perfect? No, far from it--they are a set of compromises in the shape of a donut, just like any other tire. (And anyone who tells you there are "no compromises" in their tire also doesn't care and just wants your $$.) The Azenis are heavy, particularly when compared to other "street-class cheater tires" or R-compounds, they're quite noisy (you can even hear them over your 914!), they don't tend to last an awfully long time, and they're not very good in standing water and absolutely undriveable in the snow. They tend to get greasy when you put a good amount of heat into them, too.

That happens to fit my needs quite well, as does the reasonable price. [Holy crap! They're now over $90 each in 205/50-15? That's almost double what it used to be! OK, scratch the bit about "reasonable price"... ] But they still fit my own needs. As far as my car is concerned, they absolutely kick the living crap out of the RE-930s I used to have. That was the wrong tire for the wrong application.

Anyway, the Azenis is a tire that is all about gripping dry pavement. There may be better ones out there now, but even if someone has outdone them in that department, they are still pretty close to the top of the heap.

--DD

You're only saving $5 per tire. Hardly worth the trouble.

But you can still get the same deal - most big shops will match the price. So just go in and tell them the tire rack price, and they will usually match it (including shipping of course).

Also, tire prices and other costs are always negotiable. The tire guys will try to get as much as they can. If they match the tire price, then they will try to charge you more for stems, balancing, installation, etc. If you bring in tires that you ordered, they will usually charge you more for mounting and balancing than if you bought the tire from them.

But it definitely pays to do your homework. I usually go in and do the pricematch thing. I think that's the best way to get a good deal.

Also, check www.discounttiredirect.com to see if they have the tire you want. They seem to have very good prices. Shipping is included. And right now they will give an extra $25 off a set of 4 tires. That's probably a better deal than the shops will match, so that might be worth doing a mail order.

Demick

So if I am running 195/60/15 right now on 6" Fuchs, would a 205/55/15 look pretty similar, and would it fit? On my tightest rear fender, I can fit my pinky.

I have a set of new Yokohama AVS in 195/60. $60 each plus shipping PM me if you are interested.

There is a real nice graphic in the "914 info" section of this site. It will show you relative sizing....fun too.

PLEASE NOTE...a 205/55R15 from one company may have different dimensions that the same size from another company (or even a different product line).

Just because somebody had a particular size that fit from company "X" it doesn't follow that the same size from company "Z" will fit also....this is due due to different construction, shoulder shape, cross sections.etc....

Best advice is to check the specs published by the manufacturer.

Let's see...hmmm

dry grip,...Yup
rain...nope
mileage...nope
unsprung weight...nope
r-compound...nope
Quiet...nope
ride...?
Greasy...yup

Why do you like these again...?
The wonderful thing about technology is that it lessens the compromise you must make by raising the level of each characteristic...and different models of tires lean the compromises toward different areas...ride and comfort vs. pure performance for example....

Do you think for your hard earned $$$ that you could find a tire that did more than your Azenis? Would it be worth it if they cost a little more but performed in more of the mentioned categories? Maybe 8-12 months ago these were the grippiest hard compound you could find for forty bucks...but I doubt they are on a true performance/value top 10 list of available products.

I think if you look a bit you'll surprise yourself. Then again if you're happy with this product why switch? Some people actually like driving Hyundai Accents...

BTW: round, black and holds air describes a commodity...it's the performance characteristics, value and yes, style that discerns one tire from another. Because these are all different tires are never "just like any other tire" and are not a commodoty.

Cheers, Sean

These statements you make are causing you to come off brash - and insulting, think about how you said some of this stuff dude----I and others should be able to make a recommendation w/o you calling us cheats...

To be perfectly honest guys, I'd like to see what this car can do with a tire that wasnt meant for football training... I'd like a tire that has excellent dry grip, isnt hazardous in the rain, has a firm ride, good turn in, and keeps the speedo relatively accurate.

The re960's seem nice, the hri's seem nice too. the fact that the fuzions are 1/2 the price of the bridgestones leads me to believe that something may be amiss with them. I'd also like to be able to go to a tire shop and leave with new shoes the same day. I'm just so sick of the trash tires on this car, I think that ANYTHING would be an improvement.

Thanks for all the input guys! This is awesome!

If the tire shop scratched you rim while mounting the tires would you expect him to refinish/replace your rim...If the tire is out of round (or defective) and the car shakes who will fix your problem?
From the dealers end the risk at $10-15 an install is not worth it. Most dealers prices are higher as they include install, balance a new valve and warranty the workmanship. Tire Rack does not have the expense or exposure to liability that the dealer does....I don't blame them for not installing what others sell.

Well if it came in the proper size the Bridgestone RE-01R is "THE" tire to have if you wish to stay in a street tire class.

Not good milage like less than 15K before you are buying a new set. Grip is awesome.

For a street tire that doesn't ever get pushed on, then what does it matter. Black, round, don't rub. DONE.

I have had the Hankook Rs-2 on my 914 and am quite happy with them. Autocrossed 8 runs on them They were decent but not near DOT R tires. as expected.

You sound angry...you should chill and not take things so personally...that means don't put things in other peoples mouths....nobody called anyone a "cheat"...
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No-no, not angry - and not taking things personally - however you did make mention that people chiming in w/o asking 20 questions are 'cheats', it was inferred - intelligent people know the difference -sorry, you did. And just because you work in the industry, well it is obvious you do not work for bridg / firestone or you would have claimed to. To know that much about another companies secrets which are kept on the order of national type secrets is worth pondering -

I work for a global manufacturer who is moving very fast past everyone else and has the deepest connections within the tire industry as a whole - and as a master tech I am privy (by Toyota) to alot of things most people(99%) are not - this is how I am able to do my job of keeping the public safe and continually improving on the stellar brand of Toyota. A vast majority of company improvements come from the field from guys and gals who do the work like myself - like it is said "an engineer cannot build squat, only point the way for the technician to shows it's deficiencies and make it work better". Do you see how we can be in the same "operation" and yet one know much more than the other --

BTW - all those manufacturers you claim to use firestone as an oem are false, way, way false, checks those facts again - especially Toyota - they will not touch firestone with a 10 foot pole hanging from your hand - and who really cares if they are big in the ag. industry - really.

The Fuzions are much more inexpensive because like it has been pointed out - they use a proven base which has been in production for many years w/o fault. The youngsters with bright ideas designed the new improved tread -(Some came from firestone some from bridgestone, some from other places) The engineers who made up the fuzion brand do not simply wash thier hands and start on another brands latest and greatest - they continue working for THAT same brand. The compound has also been tweeked - this was direct response to the firestone fiasco - and yes the tires themselves were not at fault, a human being was. But who's responsibility was it to monitor that human being?? Firestone????????


This is good candor -

What it comes down to is some believe in order to have quality you must pay out the ass - -

Others are anti-thetical to this belief with data to back it up

I'm sorry I created a pissing match...I just wanted some advice I hope you guys can find your way to bury the hatchet here.

I like tires...

Purple there is no pissing match here....it is words typed on a keyboard, no facial expressions, no verbal tense, no hand gestures, just a group of guys having a grown-up conversation, some agreeing, some disagreeing, some neutral. To disagree is not bad, it is good!

Do not ever feel like you cannot speak your mind or stand up for what you believe, especially here. I spent 16 years in the military defending this right of ours and I know all too well that if one lets themself be pushed around and talked down to it only gets worse for them. Believe me, there are a few members here that I am convinced would commit murder if they had a chance in hell to get away with it --

Take this conversation for what it is WORTH! Here you have a group of guys telling it like it is. Even better, you and everyone else has a guy affiliated with tire manufacture and proclaims that cheap = poor quality and a guy affiliated with evaluating these same tires on a continuinig basis and letting all know that you CAN get very high quality for less than most!!- it does not get any better than this dude. Plus you have others chiming in about thier chosen skins -even better


This is prime opportunity to see more than two sides to the coin and make an informed decision

I love this site - it has always been this way and always will...

This little fact gets lost all too commonly by a few who seem to live in glass houses and take every little comment as an attack - Believe me, you will get attacked someday by a blithering ass-hole who will stop at nothing to berate and badger and bad mouth -it always happens. This is the difference with typed words -

So it is all good Purple, it is all good--

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=26994&hl=

Thomas, and anyone else - follow the link above and you will see pics of my teener with the Fuzions - Thought I would never find it, but I did..


J

I dont care what anyone says if I have already tried something for myself
teh Fallkin Azinis are the best bang for teh buck if dry spirited driving grip is your goal.
tires, colors, flavors...pick teh one you like. ALOT of fast Porsche drivers like teh Azinis. I like my new Toyo RA-1s too but they would not last long on teh street

Like the other guys said in the thread....why's it look lifted?

195 65r15 fuzions look like what i'll be doing. just gotta find out where to find them in houston

thanks guys

I had the Yoko ES 100s in 205/15-50 and really like them.

Good Grip in the Wet & Dry.

Come on dude - no engine - no trans - no interior - no gas tank - Stiff springs, etc etc...



When you break yours down to redo it - it will look the same, trust me

hehe, looks lifted like my old miata did...from the factory, well, that actually looked like an infinity fx

Dry-pavement grip--as stated. No other hard-compound tire beat it.

Remember, the Azenis spent the first couple of years of the "street-tire" autoX class existance completely dominating at all levels. It's not a perfect tire by any means, but there is no such thing as a perfect tire. That one happened to be designed to do one particular thing, and do it very well indeed! Better, in fact, than any other comparable (hard-compound) tire.

It didn't hurt that, at the time, they were about $50 each in 205/50-15.




Doubling the price certainly didn't help their value quotient, that's for sure! But they are still near the top of the hard-compound tire pile. In fact, less than six months ago Grassroots Motorsports did a street-tire autoX test, and the Azenis came out on top again. The difference was much smaller than it had been, and apparently some of the "amost as grippy" tires were better in some of the other categories I mentioned. If I were willing to accept less grip, I could have some of those other things. But that's not what I am interested in.




Very true indeed!! Tires are, as most things are, a set of compromises. Do you want long life, or high grip? Do you want low noise, or superior water evacuation? Do you want feedback from the road, or a comfortable ride? Do you want to drive in the desert, or in snow? They all have different trade-offs that have been made in the designs.

With time and research, they do get better. You can get longer life for the same grip, or more grip with an equivalent lifespan. And so on. But there are always other ways to trade things off... And the biggest companies don't necessarily make the best tires for each specific application, because there are so many possible applications.

Making a blanket statement like "all XXX tires are bad" is nonsense--especially when you have people with first-hand experience that at least some XXX tires are good for some particular purpose. Most especially when that purpose has an easily-measured metric (e.g., lap times) and the XXX tire has consistently been the best.

--DD

With respect to the Azenis...I really would like to put those on, but they affect the gear ratios too much because of their smallness. Can anyone here tell me how fast the engine spins when you're going say 70mph(my default cruising speed around here)

You can make these comparisons here:

Tire size calculator

DD I agree with your statements...and if the Azenis suits your particular needs that is great...that's why tires are all different...I'm going to assume you auto -x in a class where "R" compounds are prohibited....my original comments to purple are directed for selecting a tire apropriate to street driving in more varied conditions.(see, I should have asked you more questions)...lol

To clarify, I never said "all XXX tires are bad" ...my point is that smaller companies cannot produce state of the art tires as they cannot afford the R&D.

In the case of the Azenis it is possible to have a small company produce a tire that does 1 thing well, heck, mabe even 2 but modern technology allows designers to produce tires that do everything better...of course that does not mean that the designs have held "dry grip" as the overriding priority...especially in a non "R" compound.

And I supose my priorities are different from yours so I would expect more from my street tires.

jw. Glad you are not angry or taking things personally...

But be very clear on this...I did NOT say or infer anyone was a "CHEAT".

The statement about asking questions revolves around professionalism....there are many tires on the market, there are many cars in the market, there are many different driving styles of people that use their cars for different things.
Having said all of that if a tire professional is reccomending a tire to someone to purchase...to get the PROPER application you must ask the end user a lot of questions to find the right tire(s) to present.
people selling tires often find a size and give the "cheapest price" or reccomend what they have in stock, or what they make the most margin on...these people are not "cheats" they just do not have the end users best interests at heart. Also, just because a person has found a "value" tire that suits "their" own needs does not mean that that tire is right for the next customer through the door. You should not manke assumptions on a customer's needs...better to ask and be sure.

As for my employer, well, this is a PUBLIC board...and I am not representing my employer. I share my knowledge and experience as a 914 enthusiast and ex racer. Please don't assume who I work for or what information I am privy to. You don't have to believe me as we have never met and this is just electronic communication, but I am telling you (and everyone) how I see it. I suppose it's worth what you pay...

Regarding the O.E. fittments...I just pulled a book from the shelf in my office for FIRESTONE passenger and light truck Original Equipment 2007. It reads TOYOTA Sienna, Firestone Affinity P215/65R15 amongst all the others I stated. I may be wrong, but then all of FIRESTONE is using the same book...you decide.

I am happy you like the Fuzion tires so much. They are designed, sold and made by Bridgestone Firestone (again you don't have to believe me...but you should)...In the context of the original posts it again proves that smaller companies cannot build cutting edge technology tires...in this case Bridgestone Firestone decided to take some market share where these smaller companies usually play...and offered a great tire at a fantastic price.

Please note that throughout this discussion I have not mentioned "quality" as any manufacturer using old or new technology can build "quality" tires. For example COOPER tire, a US tire manufacturer has a reputation for QUALITY made tires (made in the US) although they have extremely outdated technology. So if their product suits a particular persons needs it is a good tire to consider. Don't confuse "quality" and "technology".

I'm thinking of getting either of these two in 195/60/15:

BFGoodrich Traction T/A

Bridgestone Potenza G009


I also like the Fuzions, but I am not sure if that sort of thread design/sidewall would work appearance wize with Fuchs.

So now I have a little problem...I jacked the ass of the car up yesterday and found that my right rear has rubbed in the past, dunno if it still is. I think it's because the car has been lowered.

This is with 185 65r15's, wont 205 50 r15's rub MORE? or 195's?

I realize these bodies were handmade and have some variations, but would putting new wider tires make for more rubbing?

Be careful! This same thing happened to me, turned out to be a rotted suspension console!