So am I a bad guy for outing a ripoff, if the guy doing the ripping is popular here?

There are least two products that I know of, what or who is next?

Do I spill the beans?

I remember not too long ago, no one, NO ONE could say a bad word about Bradholio, without being chastised.

I don't want to be shunned for shedding the light here, but this stuff makes me mad!

If someone were about to rip me off, I'd want to know about it, whether he is popular or not. Truth is truth.

So long as you state facts and not opinion I see no problem with bringing forth your accusations.

you can't resolve i privately?

it's been just a short time since the club exploded you know, & i'm not sure this forum is right.

maybe start throwing the soil in the sandbox and if peer pressure doesn't fix it there, then work another forum?

my 2¢ and prolly worth about that much!

Please do make sure you have all your duck in a row. Is the product exactly the

same or simular. If the product was reengineered to 'Make it better', and is, thats

America. But if it is a rip off I would like to know.

I agree as well. It is one thing for Mr. Stromberg to copy and paste entire sections of someones website onto his own in order to sell a similar product. That is plagerism. But it is entirely different to sell the same product, a product that is maybe not as good but cheaper, or one that is better. That is competition.
I would walk softly on that...

Send he/she/it a private message expressing your feelings about what they do and leave it off the board.

or

Just refer to the product(s) and just mention they are copies, not improved, of someones' product. Leave names out .... we're smart enough to figure it out.

Same exact product. Photocopies of the exact same instructions created by the guy who was ripped off. They even have his (the guy ripped off) initials and date on the instructions!

Years ago I would have called this out without hesitation. But the internet has created a unique atmosphere where jerks, ripoffs, crooks, and shady dealers get insulated and protected.

I know this particular individual has done some entirely fair and square deals, and helped guys out. That doesn't give you the right to steal from somone else though.

PK,
When you have to ask before telling what you believe to be a truth, the venue of this or other forums has become tainted.

Your reputation, which in my opinion is pristine and above reproach, is always at stake and there will be those who don't know or care about squat who will dilute your comments with their own opposition when you have something to say.

Tell it like you see it shows character and not someone always wanting to just please the crowd.
Just my own opinion but it is mine.
Mike Cooley

Well there you go... That is definition plagerism.

I think you have to say what you have to say. This country's free speach lately has been wildly supressed, not by the governement or big business directly, but by peer pressure. The last few years, everyone is terrified to say anything that might be unpopular. It needs to change.
As mentioned before, I think you need to state the facts of your experiences, and leave your opinions and suspicions out of it. I would try to solve the matter privately if possible, but it depends on the nature of the problem whether you can do that. Bottom line, if you speak up, there's gonna be a lot of people who don't like it because "that's mean". Some people would rather be silently raped by a businessman than have someone speak up and disrupt their little coccoon. Anyone who's been screwed by ANYONE before will thank you for the warning. My $.02
Mark D.

Why ask us? It's a free world. Post it and let the chips fly. If you feel like it, do it here or in the sandbox. I'm sure the admins will comment if it's out of line.

As to Bradhole, even prior to the meltdown, there were posts whacking him, Mike Z and other admins.

No one is immune. Go for it.

Political Correctiveness is for whimps.

Yep... Mike Z even deserved it a few times.

Hey Perry - I know you're a responsible guy. If you have all your ducks in a row, post your concern.

Yep, lets hear it . . . plagiarism isn't cool.

I agree with the above; if its been redesigned/changed but bears resemblance, thats one thing. But straight-up copying the original is wrong.

I for one would like to know what it is, just so if I ever was to be in a position that I needed this product I could buy it from the original creator (Slits has the right way to go about it in his #2 option).

I take exception to those comments. I rarely weigh in here in "Admin" capacity. This group of admins that have landed in your lap are some of the best and fairest I've ever worked with and yes, I work with a "lot" of moderators and admins.

Some areas of the Internet maybe, however; we do not harbor jerks, rip-offs, crooks, and shady dealers and never will. Our venue hasn't become "tainted" simply because someone isn't clear about what they should or should not post (generally speaking) online. This topic has come up before with classified transactions that haven't gone the way the seller or buyer have liked, which, I "believe" is why Perry posted in this instance. Those conversations are best resolved privately. I've personally gotten into lengthy discussions with sellers who were selling used items at prices over retail. The bottom line was; this is a big family and we don't treat our family members this way.

Perry... As Paul suggests; do you have your ducks in a row? If so, I'd say "let'er rip". If you don't, it will play out here. If you do, it will play out here.

Final note: Many of the vendors here do what they do for the love of the vehicle and the family/camaraderie here. If they added up the hours in their garage/shop into the margin of the goods or service they sell, they would be bankrupt. To have someone come along and plagiarize their designs and offerings is basically stealing from those who have come to help us.

Perhaps this "plagiarist" has permission from the originator to market his products. There could be other scenarios. You might want to confirm your suspicions with the "plagiarist" before making the accusations public.

If you have something to say, say it...just make sure you have your ducks in a row.

For instance, the other day someone was slagging a guy for "ripping off" Rich Johnson's engine mount. That mount was originally made by George Vellious who was /is apparently a lousy business man (his 915 rear cover is another example...now made by Wevo) and Rich made some much needed improvements (as did Wevo).
Both of these vendors now supply a better part in a timely mannerand George is SOL. We all want our mice dead, eh?

Unless there is a copyright/patent for a product there is a risk of....ah....copies.

That said, Perry, you have enuff credibility in the 914 community to be able to speak your mind.

It's a free country (last I checked) so speak your mind. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.


brp986s ,

not taking sides but im about to make a few member purchases and more in the future and i'd just be curious what the product was..

i don't like to get

Adminstrator or not has no bearing on what another can say as long as rules are adhered to. However, If you want to quote a comment made by another person, please don't cut off a part of the complete line to suit your own opinion.
This is the exact quotation:

"When you have to ask before telling what you believe to be a truth, the venue of this or other forums has become tainted."

If you want to lock out all others who have a different opinion from those expressed as cordial, just come out and say so instead of waving a badge as Admin.

Ditto, welcome back.

Dont confuse your idea of right and wrong with what is legal.
You may not like it.
You may not buy it.
You may even think its an insult to a nice person.
But its not wrong to enter a market that you think you can perform well or better in.


Really the only person who should be pissed is the guy who made the instructions and/or holds patent to the item. Everything else is a moral quandary.



Pirates invented capitalism.

Slits didn't post this .... you can guess who did.

It really isn't worth calling someone a bastard in a public forum ..... like I said before, tell us what the product is, without prejudice, and let us ferret it out ... several people have been indicted by the forum to no avail other than a bunch of bullshit name calling ..... Pat Harvey comes to mind .... he was bashed for actions in the open and at that time the concensus was that he shouldn't have posted ..... what the fuck is the difference here?

then again, if its an artist gettting ripped off i'd kick the persons ass and leave a few nice 24" sable brush handle welts across their backside.

I hate it when people steal from the poor.

Ok, I've communicated with the person who ORIGINALLY developed the product, Ed Villela; and he's not happy about this.

Funny thing is that Ed traded one of his rear trunk shock kits, for a Euro turnsignal kit, which was (unbeknownst to Ed) ripped off of Rich Johnson's Euro turnsignal kit, that he came up with about eleven years ago (or more). Several weeks later Ed sees his strut kit sold as the "original" rear lid kit. Product ring a bell with anyone?

So I order a rear lid kit from Camp914, half curious to see for myself, and also because Ed's pretty much thrown his hands up in disgust and let his interest in continuing to sell these lapse. To my total shock, here's Craig's "original" rear lid strut kit, WITH ED VILLELA'S PHOTO COPIED INSTRUCTIONS!!!!! It even has Ed's "ECV2000" right on it.

Points made by JP and Eric are well taken.

Eric, I wasn't taking a potshot at the Admins as a group or individually. It's my hope that the situation with the prior website, will prevent any sort of similar situation. Surely ou must acknowledge the validity of the point however.

JP is spot on with his points regarding business practices, etc.

Taking someone else's product, calling it your own, and using their exact printed word is wrong. I won't duck behind the couch either!

I realize that. I just want you and others to know that's not the way things work around here. Situations on the past have definitely altered the way we do things here. The admins had issues like that first and foremost in mind during the hiatus.

What if he had made his own instructions?
Still wrong?

Resolved

How does making his own instuctions make it his!!! give me a break

It's Evilled's design Camp914 copied it and is making profit without Ed's consent!

Awhile back, there was a similar issue regarding Targa seals, the rear ones for the top. Between the top and the targ bar. Easy cheap repro if you knew how to do it.

Sammy Gore made them, called them Sammy Seals. A guy back east started doing the same. There was a flame war between the two on the old clubsite.

Who won? Who knows, but using the same instructions is a bit bush league.

Well, this is interesting because I bought my rear trunk shocks from camp because they were the one offered by a club member (I presumed he developed it). There was one offered on Ebay that was of a different design.

My 2 cents. Out market him and out sell him.

So I was planning on marketing a sway bar set that I build. It's based on the Weltmiester bar. Maybe not exactly like theirs but close. If I can build these and sell them cheaper than the catolog pricing is that wrong? How many do you think I will sell in a year? Probably not enough to make it worth getting hassled over.

Yep.

Are you going to include a copy of Weltmeister's instructions with your bar?

Ed

exactly my point.

How long ago was this? I bought a rear trunk kit from Craig close to 8 years ago? I know I've never had a problem with Craig in any aspect. I've done quite a bit of business with him too. I'm sure he will chime in & work everything out. Let's not bury the guy before we hear his side of things.

The instructions came from a set of shocks that were purchased from Pelican parts many years ago. They discontinued the item, so I researched the product, found out where to buy the items needed and that was it.
Craig C. Laughlin CAMP 914

I agree that we should have Craig chime in, and I'm sure he will.

In the meantime... here is a cute animal photo.

//edit - there he is! //

You know what would be the right thing for Craig thing to do:

1) Admit he ripped Ed's kit off!

2) Stop selling the kit that 's not his!!!

3) give Ed a monetary settlement based on how many kits camp914 sold!

Nobody is getting rich making and selling 914 parts. I have a few friends who are developing, manufacturing, and selling parts either as an improvement for a part that regularly fails, doesn't perform well enough, or is NLA. They do it for the money, of course, but it's not that much money. They do it because they love 914's and want to help keep them alive.
If Ed's part wasn't patented, Craig didn't break any laws and according to our legal system doesn't owe Ed anything. That doesn't make it right. If he's doing what this thread says he's doing, it's a major dickhead move for several reasons. Most have already been discussed here, but ther'es one that I'd like to bring up now. There is a finite number of people building parts for our decreasing number of cars. Craig wasting his resources to produce an exact copy of an already available part does this community no good at all. If he had used his time to develop a new solution for one of the 914's problems we'd all be better off, but instead for a few dollars he decided to rip off a guy who developed a product that he saw that we needed.
Now Ed's pissed, lots of people think Craig is a dick, and nobody is any better for it.
I would rather see something that benefits us all happen than this.

Resolved

OK, Craig and I talked off line, this has been worked out.



Ed

Edited:

Nice tutor in these lessons between 914 parts vendors and the behavior involving logic and the reasoning behind each one.



Mike Cooley
Remember, no matter which pan it ends up in, a chicken ain't nothing but a bird.

Nay, I don't have a copy. I don't even have one of their bars. I've seen a couple of pictures and stayed at a holiday inn express once I'm sure. I'm making a simalar part. I'm probably violating someones idea someplace along the way. If I do I'm sure someone will let me know about here before I have the opportunity to work it out. If I put any anti-sway bar companies out of business I'll let you know. I'm sure I will be able to retire off this idea. I quit my job already in anticipation of the imense wealth I will have.

What? not going to share the resolution?
what a rip!

middle men are funny.

This is exactly why we have the U S Patent Office. The term "patent pending" would have put a completely new light on this issue, and put the originator of the design in the catbird seat!

I'm glad to know there has been a resolution.

This is IMHO, a matter of credibility.

I doubt that making a piston style support for a 914 would ever be patentable...I think it has to be a new item, not just a new "application"....but since I've never stayed at a Holliday Inn......