I am facing a suprising dilemma.

I have come across a pristine '76 2.0 with many of the track car trimmings I desire for my future DE/AX/Weekend car. It has accusump, safety devises cage, Chassis stiffening kit, front oilcooler and aux guages. Turbo Tie rods. 140lb rear springs. 19mm master cylinder, Larger (21mm?) Torsion bars, lowered, solid battery box and longitudinals. Stock seats. Red over black. Emissions equipment removed. Stock FI. Stock 4bolt wheels/brakes. Absolutely no rust. 2 owner car with 95K miles

The other one? a '74.. completely "rotissoried" and rebuilt with 80's SC 3.0 liter converted to webbers. 911S front brakes. 914 Six rear brakes. Stiffening kit. No Cage. No fAux oil Cooler. 6/7x16s with 205s. Beautiful black over black. No rust here either. Stock interior, Sideshifter conversion. Headers that are "heat" capable.

I know its not a bad dilemma to have For your consideration, my last 914 was a '70 1.7 that i added a cage, 5 bolt conversion (Carrera brakes), stiffer TBs and rear springs; 2056 motor, oil cooler and tracked and DEd for a number of years, only selling to get a 911, which has since been sold.

Any feedback as to which you might choose and why would be appreciated.

No brainer.
6

Edit: OK, you asked why. Probably the main reason you were looking to buy a 911 was the engine. This way you get the best of both worlds. As long as you own a four you'll always want a six. Go big or go home!

I know the arugment has been beaten to death.....

No push rods....I can go on and on....

Go with a six and don't look back

I think it really depends on what you want to do with the car. You are mentioning things like "track" in your listing. So I take it you intend for the car to see track time. Will it be strictly DE's or do you plan on competition (autox or otherwise)?

If competition with this car is in your future, read the rules carefully before buying. In general a car with a 3.0L six transplant will find itself classed in with the trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters, and you'll find yourself outclassed with a street car. So, rear the rules for whatever club you plan on driving in.

-Josh2

Just to play a little devil's advocate here....

No mention of cost? Is that a factor at all?

Hold out for answers that apply to what you want to do. Don't base a decision like this on answers like "as long as you own a four you'll want a six" or "no push rods." No offense to anyone, but make your decision on factors that really have teeth and apply to your application. The last thing you want is to make a decision based on answers like that and then go get your ass handed to you by a four on the AX course.

I would probably choose the six too, just because I love them, it seems you can go either way, and you mentioned track time. But too many variables are yet undefined. Do you want to be truly competitive at racing events? If so, which ones are most important to you?

I have thought about PCA Club racing. As such, the 2.0L would run in a stock class. As I looked thru all the results from 2007band 2006, I see very few "J" class cars even entered. Which makes Club Racing less appealing and well, leaves me with just a slow (but nice) car for DE events.

The "6" would run as a GT class car for PCA CR and yes, would be completely outclassed as it is still as "street" car. It would weigh between 200-400lbs too much and be down about 80-100hp. Not too conducive to victory

For AX, the 2.0 would run stock.. with maybe only 1 other car locally at PCA events. Not sure if SCCA C/D classes would be competitive either.

For AX the "6" would run PCA Modified.. Our local region hotshoe runs a '73 "RSR" wannabe with a 993 based 3.6. I came close a couple times against him with my 220hp 911SC, but a 200hp 914 with 2200lbs (400lbs lighter than my SC) wouldn't be a bad start either. For SCCA I am sure it is not competitive without shedding weight and growing flares and running in say, XP class.

The reason I did sell my 914 was it was time to either put in a 911 motor or simply buy a 911. I bought the 911 and built it up over the years. Fun car.. but I think I prefer the 914 "twitch" at the limit vs the 911s "pendulum" predictability.

As for price? The advertised prices were close.. and the "selling" prices are close. Not deal breakers, but yes, the "6" is a little bit more.

Ouch! I sold my last 914 to buy a 911 and never regretted it. The sound of the Porsche flat six is a symphony. If you want a 911 for the styling, hold out for a 911. If you want one for the engine, get the 914/6. If you're tired of the NARP syndrome, wait for the 911. If you want to compete, get out the rule book.

I don't see much NARP syndrome out east here.. these cars are so old and so rare, not many folks know what they are.. Around here, 944s are the NARP cars

Personally I would go for the 6, but that's mostly because I'm in California, where the 76 would need smog every other year. I also like the fact that the 6 is a 3.0. Good motor, hard to kill.

I am currently doing a /6 conversion useing a 3.0 so you know my vote. The 3.0 is a excellent motor.

6. 95% of your time in the car will be on the street, the 6 will be way more fun and more reliable.

I sold my 911 to get a 914/6 and never even thought about regretting it. Go with the 3.0 conversion.

This isn't 1982.

The development of the /4 engine no longer makes it "unreliable" unless it is misconfigured or assembled by someone stick in "1982".

Yea and it was just my luck to have both happen to me in 2004!

I'm a 6'er kinda guy.

You are getting good advice here; if you are building a car for competition, you need to build it FOR the competition.

If you are new to competitive driving it could take you a couple years before the amount of power you've got will actually matter. So to that end a car more toward the momentum end of the spectrum may improve the learning curve.

As said before... It really just depends on what you are wanting to do. I have a six, and I love it more than any other car I have had. I sold my 911 so I could do more to my car. I am about to buy a 2.5l 6 for my car, and I can't wait to do so. That being said. I am really looking forward to buying another 914 and getting a Jake Raby engine in it. He is getting a lot of hp out of the 4, it is reliable if it is one of his, and it is much lighter than a six. Then I would have two kick ass 914s in my garage.

Thanks! For the kudos.. We have come a long way in the past decade for sure... We haven't taped into the full potential yet, even though most everything we build is now 180HP+... 2008 will be the biggest year yet with the roller lifters being completed, the porkies heads completed and etc..

Ppickerell, Yeah you had quite an experience! Did you ever get that straightened out?

I was thinking about this dilemma as usuall and the question I kept asking for myself was why not get a 911 if I want the six. However, you've done that and now you're going back. What made you go towards the 911 and now look at going back to the 914? I haven't had a lot of time behind the wheel of a 911 just got to drive an sc for about and hr. I wasn't that impressed, but there is something about the styling of a 911, I don't know what's your opinion?

Oh and if I was in your place I would vote 6. I just can't help but admire the sophistication of the motor.

From someone who's had both a 4 (my first ) and a 6 conversion (as well as a 928, 911S, 356 S90 with Rudge knock-off's and a 356 SC) - the 914 6 (whether a conversion or not) is by far the most "experiential" of all. the sound of that six with webers or not - right behind your head is something else!

the 6 is almost better than sex..... almost

[b]
Go with the $ix

I think that for practicality of racing the 4 is actually a better engine unless you have unlimited resources. To build a 2.0 6 that will be competitive in say the 2.0 challenge or GT5s you are looking at some serious coin. The people that I have talked to running twin plug R spec engines in those classes have spent about 20K just building the engine.

Now figure you need to freshen it up once a year and OUCH!

If racing is DE / lapping then just build what ever suits you best but if racing is racing it would be far cheaper to build a competitive 2.0 4.

I love the sound of a 3.6 I have one in my 74 911 and one about to go into my SC. However, for my race car I made the decision to run the 2.0 IV due to economics, weight, and being able to perform just as well as a 2.0 6.

Lastly, as mentioned by someone else 3.0 is another animal for a race class. A street/race car would find the back of the pack a familiar spot.

944 gets the NARP designation here in the East. 914s are very rare.
I would go for the "4" and put a stronger engine in it. (notice I didn't say "6".) Maybe a built 4 would be fun.

Something about the 2.8 rsr motor that I love. I hope to have one in the next 2 years. BUT I would also like to get a 550 replica with one of your motors Jake. One thing at a time though. I was really tempted to buy the 550 you guys had on your site awhile back. Did that ever sell?

I refuse to comment on these threads so I won't.

I'm happy to have one that doesn't drop a cup-o-rust on the ground over every bump.

I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm as I know this topic has been beaten to death.

I love the sound of an aircooled 911 motor.. I loved the torque of my 4. But, running in the Red/Black run groups, it's a lot of work keeping up with 964s, 996s and GT3s and Cup Cars. While a 914-6 will help, it is far from being the be all end all at a DE event.

Still though, I love the David and Goliath tails and the ego stroking of beating people with only 100hp as they learn they have been outdriven handily

If I had the patience to wait a year or two for one of Jake's very popular 2316s or hot 2056s I would buy a local rust free(ish) roller I know of with 5bolts, cage etc and go that route.

Seems the consensus is pretty clearly leaning towards the six.

I think if AX was your primary focus, building a sub-1800lb 200hp four would be tough to beat. (Hmm.... Dang though... That would be tough to beat period! ) Pretty damn sweet cost-to-performance package! But aside from that, most will choose the six. (Just don't go talking to Jake about that sweet six symphony. )

Rebuilding the 2.7L after 7 years of AX flogging. The only major upgrade is these 10.4:1 Mahles......total cost (DIY) bout 4k including the NOS P/Cs. If I was using Jake's dyno it would prolly get 300 hp.

I think it comes down to what the motors were designed for a Six was designed for a sports car and racing the type 4 was.......a station wagon and a bus.

Not knocking them I have had them all 914/4 buses 914/6's all were daily drivers except the 6 and they are great cars and all but when it comes down to dollar for dollar a six is the only clear choice.

6

There is just something special about a 6.

I think there are a whole lot of people running lola's with type IV vw engines that would disagree.

Please dont take this the wrong way but your 2.7 would have to be one serious engine to make 300 hp. If you are revving it to 8500 rpm and have the most incredible flowing heads and intake I still would have doubt about 300 hp. If you were twisting 8000 rpm there is no way the engine would live for 7 years. Factory racing 2.8 RSR engines made 308 HP at 8000 rpm. However, I am pretty sure they would not do that for 7 years.

I think he was @ Jake with that statement....IMHO

MY TURN!



Wonder which one makes more power per liter?

Wonder which one makes more power per pound of engine weight?

Cute, I wonder which one is more reliable at 400 hp.

Looks impressive

That one saw 27 hours in the lab under boost the whole time and didn't even have more tha 2% leak down hot... The highest oil temp it was was 217 and the highest head temp was 320 which is about 30 degrees cooler than a stock 2.0 makeing 1/3 the power..

It has dry sump oiling, billet rods, billet cam, Nickies cylinders, CNC heads and basically all the typical failure points for the TIV removed..

The main fault that the TIV has had that leads to failure has been misconfiguration and corners being cut in design and application. We haven't had a catastrophic engine failure in almost 4 years on the street, on the track or in the lab.. It might happen tomorrow, but it's been 60 engines since it happened last.

Wow! that's about 1500 miles at 60 MPH! No 6 Cyl could last 1500 miles.

Hell, according to the common thoughts displayed by most members here the /4 couldn't last 5 minutes at 300+HP.... No way it could last 27 hours under boost!

My point was that after that amount of time under boost none of the symptoms of a failure or wear existed.

There are + and - to both sides. Figure out the cost and the maintenance and what you can afford and go with that. Which ever way you go, you will have fun.
Do the brakes and suspension to what you want first. It is great to go fast, but you have to turn and stop.

I've been there when Jake has a motor on the dyno. He Flogs the sh*t out of em. No way I could emulate it on the road. I can guarantee you, you would wear out first unless you were in incredible shape. He's on em all the time, finishes a pull and then, blips the throttle about 3 times to bring down the head temps and then he's all over it again.

There are breaks to change things like jets or stuff, but when it's running it is abused.

I would say that would be more like 700 miles of hot lapped 1/4 miles. 20 passes at a time with 1/2 an hour or less in between.

Mine saw pulls to 7500 rpms, blips the throttle and then it started over with loads at 3500 and on up again. I tell you I was proud my engine held together for a day on Jake's dyno.

Jake thats amazing, and i do appreciate what your doing, please keep taking it to the limit. But there are limitations to the type 4 and you and i well know that your not gone to be able to build one that will match a big turbo six engine. 930 engines can support over 700hp you show me a type 4 thats not built like a grenade with the pin pulled that can do that.

My engine at around 420 hp will be a dependable daily driver and should hold up for many years and as many miles as a stock type 4.

Six - Six - Six

700HP is possible with these on a 2.8L engine and moderate boost.... It should be running by this time next year IF things continue to go well.

You forget that the TIV has the same metallurgy as the 911 aluminum crankcases and that it has a shorter crankshaft.

With the same parts that are used in the six making 700HP the same longevity should be a capability with a roller cammed, billet headed, Nickies equipped TIV.

Of course at this level it's not a Type 4 engine any longer- it's just plain MassIVe.

I do know of a 2366cc TIV from Europe that has been drag racing for 7 years making over 500HP and it survives..

So what do you feel is so weak about the engine that makes it unable to support the power it can generate?

Longevity is something we have never had a problem with, the only time things break is when the wrong jackass with a wrench in his hand become a catalyst. That jackass is the biggest enemy that the TIV has.

ooooooo...car porn.

It's time you sponsor a 24 Lemans car. WOW!, If you can get a 2.8- 4 to crank out 700 hp with mild boost and run full boost all day long, you have my vote for the Nobel.

I helped build and prep a 2.0 type 4 that was racing at Rennsport III it is cool car but we are at the point to be more competive we need more grunt do you spend 5-8000.00 on a type 4 or do you go with 2.0-2.5 Six it's a no brainer.