Has a 2.0 with webers. Sounds like some kind of fixit ticket. Do 1971 teeners have to smog? How would a six ever smog since those came with carbs too?

Do we have any california law experts here to explain this?

has nothing specifically about the carbs, it is about changing from stock equipment.
Obviously this CHP officer knew something about 914 4 cylinder cars and that they all came stock with EFI. Just because the car does not have to be smogged, does not mean that all the proper smog related equipment does not have to be present.
This is one of the reasons I put D-jet back on my 2056 when I built it.

Why did he get pulled over to begin with?

Got pulled over for having an old car with a crappy paint job really. The thing is all primered right now while he decides what kind of fenders he's going to put on it. You'll see it tomorrow at Alameda.

So the stock equipment, how does that work? Does that mean all of the 6-cylinder and v8 conversions are illegal?

if they can not pass a smog test, visual and actual.

must have been some reason why he pulled him over....

oh well.

yes, alot of 75 and older cars (including Porsches) are illegal by the letter of the California smog laws.

I'd like to see the CVC or other code it was written under. BTW, unless he opened the deck lid himself, they need a search warrant to look under the hood....

Any bets he asked the driver if he could have a look under the hood? Once you open the engine compartment to his/her review, all bet are off. The officer no longer needs "Probable Cause".

And the truth is, no longer is "Probable Cause" a requirement. It has been supplanted by "Reasonable Cause"

In over simplified terms, probable cause exist[s] where the known facts and circumstances are sufficient to warrant a man of reasonable prudence in the belief that contraband or evidence of a crime will be found, Ornelas v. United States, 517 U.S. 690, 696 (1996); Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213, 238 (1983).

Under a similar gloss, reasonable suspicion is a standard, more than a hunch but considerably below preponderance of the evidence, which justifies an officer's investigative stop of an individual upon the articulable and particularized belief that criminal activity is afoot, Ornelas v. United States, 517 U.S. at 695; Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. at 235.

If the car blew the slightest bit of visible smoke the officer already had cause. Visible smoke is a criteria for failure for emissions.

That's what I was going to say. If yer smoking the officer has probable cause. The search is on even as a saftey precausion. At the least he can safely assume you have the start of an engine fire. If he finds other evidence during the search..well your history.

Is there some way for those of us here that have improved 914s to legally drive our cars then?

I don't understand why some guy with a 30's roadster can put a blown 426 cube hemi in his car, but I can't put aftermarket EFI on my little 4 cylinder.

For an excessive smoke violation or visible emissions citation you look at the tailpipe......not for popping the hood.

I trained these guys to go after Ricers doing intake mods using parts w/o "executive orders" markings. Visible emissions, they go to smoke school and are VEE certified and rate smoke to the US Mines Ringlemann Scale.

They can't pop the hood unless the driver agrees to do so...

I'm not from the gold coast, but I would think if your car is not required to get inspected any longer, just be sure it's not sending up any flags.

I had always wonder about this very same thing…
My car is ‘street ‘ license / insured- but I never drive it on the street –because I DON’T
Want to get hassled for a fix it ticket like no front plates and or wipers.

Can I put those things on sure, but then I can’t drive it like I want- thus I putt along in my 83 320i

How many of you have left your wallet at home and discovered it later. Did you

drive home? That was illegal. Point? 1983 I put webers on my 914. Drove it as a

DD for years. Not one problem. I thought this and Mike's statement fit the best.


If you do get pulled over, and you have more money in your car than a laywer would cost, then refuse to open it. Insist on a search warrent.

I know police officer's are supposed to enforce all law's but come on, this guy had SO much time on his hands to pull over a 914 for probably "a puff of smoke", then decides to investigate and write a ticket because the engine is not stock, even though its a pre-smog car?!

99% of the time I'm pro-law enforcement and know they have a tough job but geeze, this guy needs to prioritize his time

Back in the day, I got yanked over by some rookie CHP in my lowered 56 ragtop. He wrote me everything under the sun, including failure to notify the DMV on an engine change.

The reg was for motorcycles, I also wrote down his comments and had a talk with his Supervisor....he just happened to have taught a traffic school that I recently attended...yeah surprising, I had a speeding ticket....

Anyways, the ticket was taken by his Sarge and I later heard the shitbag got a weeks unpaid vacation.....never even had to fix that ticket....

Just because it's written on a ticket doesn't mean it's valid.

That's why I suggest posting the CVC or other reg he wrote him up for. I'm pretty good at this stuff as I do it for a living....

Time for a diatribe and state some facts about smog laws in Calif;

Most of this I know from working on modified Hondas (which the cops like to target)

All smog laws apply to our cars! You can not legally modify any smog related items unless you are using items that have an EO number issued by the state.


1975 and older are not smog excempt! The only break is that we don't have to have smog checks in order to register the car.

EO numbers are certificates that are issued to a part by the state. In order for a manufacturer to get an EO number for their product, they have to pay for extensive testing (BIG bucks) to prove to the state that using that part will not increase smog.

ECU's can not be modified in any manner.

Engine swaps are legal but the rules are extensive and can be tricky. The engine has to be from a car, not truck (a Honda CRV engine is considered a "truck" engine and couldn't be used). The engine has to be from a newer (or same) year car. ALL of the smog related items from the original car have to be included in the swap. Even the orientation matters. If the source engine originally was mounted transversly, you couldn't mount it longtudinally (a VW VR6 only came transversly mounted and as such, you couldn't mount it to a 901 transmission and be legal)

If you had an original 914/6 and put in a latter 911 engine, you would also have to have all of the smog equipment that came with that engine.

How do I know all this shit?? Well, my last project car was a 89 Honda Civic and I swapped in a 95 Acura Integra GSR motor.

To do the swap and be legal, I had to convert the EFI to the OBD1 system used in the Integra. I then had to go to the state Referee Station to have the swap "certified". Once the swap has been totally checked (and a smog check is performed), a label is attached to the car (by the referee) stating that future smog checks are to be performed as if it's a 95 Integra. Any aftermarket parts have have EO numbers that apply to the original source car (the headers were DC Sport, with EO numbers for the Integra)

The big thing however is that the cops like to check out the Honda guys. Us 914 guys are more "respectable" and less prone to get checked.

All that said, I'm planning on putting an Audi V6 in my 1975 914. I've kept the idea of having to pass the Referee process though all of my planning, should it become an issue.

Wes Vann

Just curious.
A pre 1975 car never has to open the hood for an inspection, visual nor smog?
If that is true, I would always ask for a search warrant.
If a 914/4 shows up with a carbed 914/6 motor, that probably produces more smog...that is ok, considering it would have all the original "smog" equipment...meaning none..??

Rich

All 914/4s have at least some smog equipment. See the list at the bottom of my webpage:

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Emissions.htm

From his list.

A slight clarification: The smog rule is that the equipment has to be correct and complete for either the engine or the chassis, whichever is newer. You can put a '32 Ford engine in your '72 914, but it has to have functional D-jetronic EFI, evap, vacuum controlled hot air riser, vacuum controlled spark advance and retard, and an oil bath air cleaner, and it must pass tailpipe emissions testing as appropriate for the area in which the car is registered. Conversely, you can put that 1.7L teener motor in the model A, but it has to be equipped as it was when the engine was certified for sale in 1972. As was mentioned earlier, the test exemption is just that: a test exemption. The state may, at it's discretion, compel you to have it inspected for both equipment and for emissions levels.

The Cap'n

Unless you can get it dismissed by the guys Supervisor or it's written under the wrong rule, yer basically fucked. While the law is rarely enforced on smog check exempt vehicles...it's still on the books.

Yes, you see 57 Chevies with blowers, dual quads, headers and such....but I'll bet he has a PCV in there some place....

Kind of like the sodomy laws in the Bible Belt....moral of the story, don't pop the hood unless your a stocker or the guy has a warrant.....

I can only guess, the driver failed the cops subjective "attitude test".....I've had that standard used against me...go figure....

AGAIN, post the reg that the cop wrote him up for.

I know someone (a close friend) who has a 1973 914 with a 1989 3.2 six installed. A member of the California Highway Patrol and a member of the Orange County Auto Theft Task Force came to my friends house, looked the car over, "blue tagged" the car, provided paper work for the new engine and not a word about smog.???? Are these laws arbitrarily enforced?

In general, the CHP has nothing to do with smog enforcement, nor the emissions laws themselves. Any time you get a ticket relating to smog equipment, it's usually triggered by excessive smoke, a demonstration of your car's HP, noise, or acceleration/speed attributes, or you pissed the cop off. At that point, you may have aroused an interest in the history of your car, your engine, the condition of your brakes, lights, horn, ride height, tires, or your driving record. This can occasionally rise to gargantuan and truly annoying proportions, involving the BAR, the CHP auto theft division, the DMV, and the EPA people. Might not be in your best interests to display behavior and/or attitude to draw this kind of attention.

Unless, of course, you ride a Harley, where being loud and annoying is 110% (actually, 150%) American, and consequently exempt from the rules.

The Cap'n, trying to have a nice weekend despite the invasion of thousands of Harleys for some kind of obnoxiousfest.

I don't agree at all! (I know you are just using that as an example)

In my talks with the State Referee's, they are real clear on this.

Even if you could get the original engines EFI to run the engine, they would simply state that it's not as the manufacturer designed and got through the initial smog certification.

Wes

The ricers have been dealing with this stuff for years. My neighbor had a riced out Honda with big wheels and stickers on it, he got pulled over leaving a car show for DWA- Driving While Asian, they had him pop the hood and wrote him a ticket for a non-CARB approved air filter. The car was stock under the hood except for the air cleaner and of course the coffee can exhaust tip. He said 100 people got pulled over and ticketed for similar offenses trying to leave that rice-fest.
They should be pulling over those loud Harley assholes!
BTW, don't EVER piss off the cop, you'll never win unless you're a lawyer and I'm not. I've found that a pleasant, cooperative attitude and a sense of humor go a million miles farther with a cop than trying to prove that you're right.

Another thing the cops like ticketing on the Honda guys are aftermarket fuel rails!!

If it doesn't have an EO number (and none of the aftermarket ones do), it's illegal!

We have it good in that we don't get looked at like the Honda guys are.

Wes

Huh? The factory emission label above the relay board indicates the emission standards for that particular 914, as it was manufactured, at the time it was manufactured. The labels all indicate either 'EPA' or 'California' compliance or both. Is it true that same 914 today would be required to comply with different or even stricter emissions levels? It seems hard to believe that the same car would be held to a more stringent standard than when it was manufactured. That could lead to 'unlawful seizure of property' with a quick change of the laws.

As with a lot of police officers, a little less attitude and a lot of "how can you and I make this fly?" works wonders with referrees. BTDT. A good percentage of them are "car guys", and a little "can you work with me on this" can lead to a little interpretation of the rules. Not "breaking" them, but sort of "finding in your favor".

The Cap'n

a lot of us are gambling that no one will ever peek into the engine bay ...
Andy

Believe it, Jeff.
In our county, They've tightened way up on the NOX requirements.

Hmmm, I doubt that. The CO and NoX are the same as they were when the car was manufactured. it's just that they look for the emissions at different rpms and do it under load.

As to the equipment....well there I DO have an issue. A lot of the 70s add on stuff were one off designs and no longer available. New cars since 1990 have 100K warranties on smog equipment and the manufacturers are required to keep parts for 20 years....

Reading through most of the situation here, this is why my 2056 upgrade engine will be disguised under stock injection. To any inspector of the state it will appear as a stock 1974 (1974 model year car, 1975 ship/license date) to have the OEM equipment and emissions control. Sans the catalytic converter, but I can slap one in place if need-be.

I believe the letter of the law states that even though a car may be exempt from annual or bi-annual inspections and testing, it must maintain the original equipment, or if replaced with a later model engine or different engine, maintain the OEM emissions control equipment from that year/make/model for that engine.

OK, so the answer to the question is this.
I was parked behind this car at the GGR AX today and it blows a huge cloud of smoke at start up and does a pretty good James Bond impression during decel.
The officer had all the probable cause he needed to pull him over and write him a ticket.
Had nothing to do with primer, wings, carbs or anything else.

the car is belching lots of oil smoke and deserved to be tagged....

it wasn't the cop being a butthead or anything else ,and again it has nothing to do with "smog testing"

It has to do with visible POLLUTION

should have said it was a diesel.

I totally understand how they can complain about it, I'm just trying to figure out how the law with regards to old cars works.

His car isn't running great right now, but when it does run well we'd like to avoid future problems.

The car is currently in an unfinished state, but it has a lot of money in it already, and we'd hate to have something like this screw up the plan.

like stated above.
just because it doesn't have to be smogged every 2 years anymore does not mean the correct anti pollution devices and correct engine pieces can be moved or changed.
if you upgrade to a newer motor, it is supposed to have all the pollution devices that were part of that newer motor's package.
So yes, there are a lot of older teeners in California that are illegal by the letter of the law.
If his car was running clean, he wouldn't have gotten pulled over for the smoking, and he wouldn't be looking at a big mess. Depending on what the ticket states, he may have to have the car looked at at a "Referee" station and they will be looking for all the proper intake and smog related stuff from 197X for his year. Yes there was smog equipment even on a 1970.

I would bet the next step in the process for this car would be to find a stock motor and install it for the fix-it ticket. Otherwise, you're probably screwed. I don't see a referee being ok with some upgraded project engine. They are looking to give exemption to older cars that have their stock motors in place and can't pass.

I am shocked that the CHP officer went that far. Must have pissed him off somehow.

I am not sure the "consent search" argument holds water. I see the CHP inspecting engine compartments all the time. I have a Fri.- Sat. Rice hangout a half-block away. Occasionally some ass-hat starts drifting in the parking lot and CHP will swoop in and clear the lot and BBQ the ass-hat... They have even used a helicopter! If these ricers didn't have to open their hoods, I doubt they would. I'm no lawyer but these guys get themselves hassled all the time as a result of their own behaviour. You would think they would know enough to say no when the officer says "can you open your hood for me?"

A smoke ticket is NOT a reasonable cause for a smog ticket.

No 1974 model year car should have a stock cat and so it should not be required equipment for that car ever.

I knew a 914 owner years ago (remember Miles Julihn?) who had a 49-state 1975 2.0L that did not have a stock cat, but he ended up installing one to pass emissions testing that were required back then.

this is what you say.


I'm sorry officer but I do not consent to any searches.



Any search he does after that is then done without your consent.
If he still orders you to open the hood you repeat the same phrase.

keep repeating until he asks you to step out of the car.
If you have balls you will lock your door on exiting.

sound like fun?

To stop the speculation, you might want to tell us exactly what the ticket says. Like the descriptive phjrases ans the CVC cited. Just for grins. We can then determine exactly what the alleged offense is and what needs to be done about it. I can find out with one phone call ............... The Cap'n

I'll find out as soon as he gets home. Thanks.

That was my suggestion in post #4.....38 replies ago.....

scan the freakin ticket already yur drivin us nuckin futs!

So what happens to a 914/8 conversion in a similar situation?

"Please open the hood" Yes, officer (open the front hood).

So far the verdict has been that it's illegal?

edit: I'm still waiting on that ticket info

A V-8 conversion can be made legal if you follow the rules, and be smog compliant for California Smog Laws. Some time ago I built a Chev V-8 conversion using Renegade Parts, donor 1987 engine complete including the fuel system, and exhaust mufflers. I even went into the car harness to retrieve a transistor that was needed on the electrical side of the house. I built this car before Scott owned Renegade and used documentation from Rod Simpson (or whatever was available at the time which was very limited). The idea from the start was to build within the law and then have a referee certify the car for compliance. I even put a catalyst on the the car which was a 1974 year. I was so clean that it made water in the tailpipe. The engine had 70,000 plus miles.

Insured the car, temperary operating permit, and took it to the Referee who would not certify the car at that time since it had a catalyst on it. Took the car home, removed the catalyst and subsequently passed the Referee Certification and Smog Check.

The reason I had to remove the catalyst: Not required on the car; belongs to the car side of the house, not the engine side.

This build was done in Santa Clara, California and the main items are to build within the law, know and build with complete engine requirements that are going into the car, know what the Referee is looking for and what the exact engine smog equipment requirements are, and make you engine as clean as possible. Work with the requirements of the State and get it Referee Certified. I could have even run cerfified headers with appropriate mufflers and passed the Referee as long as the engine was sound and clean in meeting the required year smog requirements.

Currently I am building another 1974 Porsche with 1987 Carrera engine (3.2) and will use all the engine requirements for smog etc with anticipation of meeting California State Smog Requirements. The only area I will be at risk will be the exhaust where I am running aftermarket headers (not required Catalyst). I am doing the building in Flagstaff, AZ which does not have any required smog checks, but I do live part of the time in California and I also expect Smog Laws every where will be similar to the California Requirements over future years.

The very basic reason I build projects this way is to minimize expenses and potential hassles. I find by understanding the rules and working with the people I can achieve these objectives and enjoy a higher performance car, rather than using non certified parts.

Incidently, both cars where shells that I recovered from going to the "crusher" and became running 914s again.

I think the Smog Requirements are explained very nicely in the thread. Now, we need to see what violation is on the ticket.

Steve Hurt

Interesting to see if the BAR would actually inspect an engine swap on a pre 76 car. Note to self: Call BAR Monday.

While driving back from Our Lady of Mulholland services with Howard, CHP pulled me over. The car looked just like in this pic. If he'd wanted to, he could have kept me there all day while he wrote a book. I got my well deserved speeding ticket but nothing else. Life's a gamble.
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