You guys done yet? You never need to replace T4 flywheel bolts unless they're damaged in some way. The oil from a leaking rear main seal isn't gonna get on the clutch unless it's just pouring out. The F/W o-ring is a more common source of engine oil migrating to the clutch. However, in this case, it' looks like it may be tranny oil.
The flywheel is on its last legs. It's been cut far enough to require the heads of the F/W bolts to be cut down, and that means it can't be cut again (it probably shouldn't have been cut the last time!). If you leave it alone, maybe just break the glaze, it may be OK for a while. With the F/W cut as far as it has been, you need to make sure there's an extra washer behind the ball stud for the release arm. The washer to use is one of the ones under any of the tranny cover bolts. Put something else there in its place.
When removing the tranny, or the complete drive train, it's FAR easier to remove the 4 8mm bolts on the tranny mounts than it is to remove the 2 large bolts, and you'll never have to remember (or ask) where the washers go ..........
Now back to your regularly scheduled program ............
The Cap'n
Full Version: Do you have to pull the engine to change the clutch?
The Cap'n knows best. Do as he says. It is his business to know this stuff. Most of the rest of us just play at it.
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ May 5 2009, 06:17 PM) 
You guys done yet? You never need to replace T4 flywheel bolts unless they're damaged in some way. The oil from a leaking rear main seal isn't gonna get on the clutch unless it's just pouring out. The F/W o-ring is a more common source of engine oil migrating to the clutch. However, in this case, it' looks like it may be tranny oil.
The flywheel is on its last legs. It's been cut far enough to require the heads of the F/W bolts to be cut down, and that means it can't be cut again (it probably shouldn't have been cut the last time!). If you leave it alone, maybe just break the glaze, it may be OK for a while. With the F/W cut as far as it has been, you need to make sure there's an extra washer behind the ball stud for the release arm. The washer to use is one of the ones under any of the tranny cover bolts. Put something else there in its place.
When removing the tranny, or the complete drive train, it's FAR easier to remove the 4 8mm bolts on the tranny mounts than it is to remove the 2 large bolts, and you'll never have to remember (or ask) where the washers go ..........
Now back to your regularly scheduled program ............
The Cap'n
Thanks Cap'n. = )
Behind the flywheel looks very clean. Are those 2 open holes supposed to be like that? Should something be covering them? I do think its more the tranny leaking than the engine. The engine looks fairly clean. The tranny when stood on its end leaked fluid but not from the breather but rather the shaft (I think - I didnt see a trail from the breather per a suggestion a few posts back - thanks). So is that an easy seal to replace?
Thanks again everyone.
ERic
The large amount of sediment on the inside of the bellhousing makes me believe the front seal on the tranny is leaking.
The stripes on the back of the flywheel makes me think that the rear main seal is leaking.
I am also concerned about your galley plugs on the bottom of the case...those dont look right..maybe someone used JBWeld on them....not really sure what it is, but it does not look right.
Rich
The stripes on the back of the flywheel makes me think that the rear main seal is leaking.
I am also concerned about your galley plugs on the bottom of the case...those dont look right..maybe someone used JBWeld on them....not really sure what it is, but it does not look right.
Rich
QUOTE(r_towle @ May 5 2009, 06:42 PM)
I am also concerned about your galley plugs on the bottom of the case...those dont look right..maybe someone used JBWeld on them....not really sure what it is, but it does not look right.
Rich
Rich,
I wonder if there was a leak before and the way they fixed it was with JB Weld. I agree it looks like it. That would account for all the oil all over the tranny and clutch and fly wheel and and and. They open it up, fix the leak, clean it up and put it back as best as possible. It held for awhile until the clutch failed...?
So I will change the RMS and the Tranny main shaft seal. What else?
Thanks.
Eric
See if someone can give you Greg Robbins number in Phoenix. I gave him a couple of flywheels and if he has an extra that is good (not cut), tell him Ron Meier told you to call and ask for it.
If you get and use a "newer" flywheel you will need to confirm your endplay.
Get new flywheel bolts if your's are cut ( if you use a "newer" flywheel).
If the throwout bearing is smooth in rotation, you need not replace it.
Check the plastic bushing under the clutch fork arm as Cap'n Krusty suggested.
Get a new or good used clutch assembly.
As far as your galley plugs, well they seem to be holding with the JB Weld or whatever epoxy it is.
Well, that's my shot at it ... Ok, John, you can jump in again.
Edit: Here is Greg's number .... 602-291-3525
If you get and use a "newer" flywheel you will need to confirm your endplay.
Get new flywheel bolts if your's are cut ( if you use a "newer" flywheel).
If the throwout bearing is smooth in rotation, you need not replace it.
Check the plastic bushing under the clutch fork arm as Cap'n Krusty suggested.
Get a new or good used clutch assembly.
As far as your galley plugs, well they seem to be holding with the JB Weld or whatever epoxy it is.
Well, that's my shot at it ... Ok, John, you can jump in again.
Edit: Here is Greg's number .... 602-291-3525
Wouldn't a leak from the oil pressure sender over a period of time work its way into the clutch area? 
I would do as Cap'n said, and you might as well just do all seals, replace the F/W, PP and the TOB "WYAIT" (while you are in there)!
I would do as Cap'n said, and you might as well just do all seals, replace the F/W, PP and the TOB "WYAIT" (while you are in there)!
QUOTE(Jeffs9146 @ May 6 2009, 08:14 AM)
I would do as Cap'n said, and you might as well just do all seals, replace the F/W, PP and the TOB "WYAIT" (while you are in there)!
What is the F/W? PP? and the TOB? = ) Do they come in the kit? A kit?
Thanks
Eric
F/W = Flywheel
PP = Pressure Plate or clutch cover (your choice)
TOB = Throw out bearing
Only thing you left out was friction disk .... what goes between pressure plate and flywheel.
And yes, it all comes in a kit and from Automobile Atlanta, I believe you can get a kit that includes a resurfaced flywheel.
PP = Pressure Plate or clutch cover (your choice)
TOB = Throw out bearing
Only thing you left out was friction disk .... what goes between pressure plate and flywheel.
And yes, it all comes in a kit and from Automobile Atlanta, I believe you can get a kit that includes a resurfaced flywheel.
QUOTE(SLITS @ May 6 2009, 09:11 AM)
And yes, it all comes in a kit and from Automobile Atlanta[u], I believe you can get a kit that includes a resurfaced flywheel.
Part Number: r91411600001
Name of item:
914 19 PIECE CLUTCH PACKAGE KIT (NEW FLYWHEEL, rebuilt plate & disc)
It looks like the full kit can be had for $556.22 and $100 dollar core at Automobile Atlanta.
Description Of Product:
Our 19-piece clutch package contains everything we use in our shop for a perfect clutch replacement. Beware of lesser kits, you will need all of these parts! Included is the clutch installation manual. KIT INCLUDES: Rear main seal, Throwout bearing, 2 Throwout bearing clips, Flywheel (NEW), Front trans. seal, 2 CV joint gaskets, Flywheel O-ring, Ball stud cup, 2 Muffler gaskets, Needle bearing, CV joint bolt, Clutch alignment tool, Flywheel crush washer, Felt washer, Pressure plate (RBLT), Clutch disc (rblt.), clutch installation manual. CORE CHARGE $100
To Purchase:
Price: $556.22
________________________________________
From Pelican its $539.10 but without a flywheel.
New Pressure Plate
New 911 Clutch Disc
New Throw-out Bearing
New Pilot Bearing and Felt Ring
2 Throw-out Bearing Guide Clips
New Throw-out Fork Bushing
2 CV Joint Gaskets
2 Muffler Gaskets
New Flywheel O-Ring
New Flywheel Bolts
New Flywheel Metal Crush Gasket
Clutch Disc Alignment Tool
Flywheel/crankshaft seal not included - check yours first before ordering.
914-CP-1000AN 914-4 20 Piece Super Clutch Kit, Without Flywheel, 914 1.7/1.8/2.0 (1970-76), Each [More Info]
$539.10
________________________________
I guess I need all these items, its just a lot of money. Can anyone put together a used kit cheap? Not crap parts but I know I have good used parts around my shop that would work for other areas of the car. Maybe someone has a good flywheel, clutch, pressure plate setup they want to sell? I know. New is the way to go... but I doubt I can afford it at this time.
Thanks again everyone.
Eric
QUOTE(Cire @ May 6 2009, 11:08 AM)
I guess I need all these items, its just a lot of money. Can anyone put together a used kit cheap? Not crap parts but I know I have good used parts around my shop that would work for other areas of the car. Maybe someone has a good flywheel, clutch, pressure plate setup they want to sell? I know. New is the way to go... but I doubt I can afford it at this time.
Thanks again everyone.
Eric
LOL I still need 2 tranny mount kits. Am I going to need Engine ones as well if the tranny ones are bad? = ) Dominos.....
Eric
Gave you a phone number to call ... don't ignore it.
QUOTE(SLITS @ May 5 2009, 07:37 PM)
See if someone can give you Greg Robbins number in Phoenix. I gave him a couple of flywheels and if he has an extra that is good (not cut), tell him Ron Meier told you to call and ask for it.
Edit: Here is Greg's number .... 602-291-3525
I gave him a call and left a message. = ) I will cross my fingers that he doesnt think I am a nut. LOL Think he has any Tranny Mounts? = )
Eric
QUOTE(Jeffs9146 @ May 6 2009, 08:14 AM)
Wouldn't a leak from the oil pressure sender over a period of time work its way into the clutch area?
I would do as Cap'n said, and you might as well just do all seals, replace the F/W, PP and the TOB "WYAIT" (while you are in there)!
The oil pressure sender might as well be on the other end of the car in terms of getting oil on the clutch ................... The Cap'n
Here are a few more pictures of the clutch, flywheel and pressure plate. Anyone see anything else bad that hasnt been caught thus far? = )
Eric
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Eric
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Aside from the fact that things are oily and the disc looks pretty rough, I don't see why the clutch stopped working entirely? Have you figured that out yet? Maybe others can see more than I can.
QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ May 7 2009, 11:41 AM)
Aside from the fact that things are oily and the disc looks pretty rough, I don't see why the clutch stopped working entirely? Have you figured that out yet? Maybe others can see more than I can.
That is my issue. I dont see where it failed. It just stopped working. When I had someone sit in the car and work the clutch, the arm on the tranny moved most of its length. To me, this means the shift tube did NOT come lose and that something in the tranny went bad. Someone told me that throw out bearings can go like this. = ) Well, the throw out bearing looks good. Dont get me wrong, it was a mess and needed some attention, however, I dont want to put it back together and still have an issue. = )
How can I test the shift tube with the tranny out? The cable was connected and working normally through the pulley. It just didnt disengage the clutch enough to allow it to go into gear (grindddd).
That clutch is bad. It has some cracks going with the grain of the disc. Could this have been the issue?
Thanks team.
Eric
Mine was doing the same thing unless I had the adjuster nut on the cable tightened all the way down to where the threads stopped. Even then getting into 1st was a hit and miss. There was almost no travel from the pedal fully depressed to the engagement point. I wasn't getting any noticeable slipping when going up hills or when accelerating, but shifting was rough.
My clutch disc disn't look very worn when I took it out. My pressure plate had the same wear marks from the throw out bearing that yours has... which of course is normal. Fortunately I didn't have any engine or tranny fluid leaking problems. My guess was that the pressure plate was just worn out, and it seems on my car I was correct. With a new throw out bearing, pressure plate, and clutch disk the system feels perfect.
This was just my experience though and doesn't mean it is the exact same situation as yours, but hopefully it will be as simple as mine.
The Cap'n a PRO at this stuff and will have the best diagnosis so go with what he says.
My clutch disc disn't look very worn when I took it out. My pressure plate had the same wear marks from the throw out bearing that yours has... which of course is normal. Fortunately I didn't have any engine or tranny fluid leaking problems. My guess was that the pressure plate was just worn out, and it seems on my car I was correct. With a new throw out bearing, pressure plate, and clutch disk the system feels perfect.
This was just my experience though and doesn't mean it is the exact same situation as yours, but hopefully it will be as simple as mine.
The Cap'n a PRO at this stuff and will have the best diagnosis so go with what he says.
From the first page pictures it looks like the pivot for the throwout fork is loose and leaking. It would have been shimmed (remember the washer discussion?) to make up for the surfaced flywheel. I think the rear of the motor was leaking as you said and repaired. the clutch disk appears to have been "formed conical" to get it to work a little longer by some evil person maybe.
The flywheel will not pass as a core probably, save the shipping charges.
You might ask if t4 bus clutch parts will work and be cheaper.
The last thing you want is to miss the leaks and mess the new disk up.
In Waco we have a forever old flywheel, pp and clutch place that rebuilds everything (they got the specs on everything) but they really need to know what they are doing are you will get to do it over and over and over till it's right.
The flywheel will not pass as a core probably, save the shipping charges.
You might ask if t4 bus clutch parts will work and be cheaper.
The last thing you want is to miss the leaks and mess the new disk up.
In Waco we have a forever old flywheel, pp and clutch place that rebuilds everything (they got the specs on everything) but they really need to know what they are doing are you will get to do it over and over and over till it's right.
QUOTE(charliew @ May 7 2009, 12:25 PM)
From the first page pictures it looks like the pivot for the throwout fork is loose and leaking. It would have been shimmed (remember the washer discussion?) to make up for the surfaced flywheel.
Whats it take to fix it if its leaking? Do we need anything special or is it the main seal for the tranny? I went back and looked at the pictures. You are right, it looks like its leaking right behind the fork.
Thanks. I guess I need to take a look under there. = )
Eric
Remove the throw out bearing and lever. There is a ball stud which the lever pivots on. The stud should have been shimmed when flywheel was resurfaced (cut). The shim (extra washer) is to keep things in the same relative position as before the flywheel was "thinned". Also, there is a plastic busing inside the lever which acts as a bearing between the lever and the stud.
The ball stud is screwed into the transmission and if not tighly sealed can leak gear oil.
Again, the Cap'n and others know much more than I about this stuff. You may not need to shim the ball stud if you use an uncut flywheel. But do be sure you do what is required regarding shims/crank endplay when installing a different flywheel.
The ball stud is screwed into the transmission and if not tighly sealed can leak gear oil.
Again, the Cap'n and others know much more than I about this stuff. You may not need to shim the ball stud if you use an uncut flywheel. But do be sure you do what is required regarding shims/crank endplay when installing a different flywheel.
Howdy all,
I pulled the throw out bearing arm off and did some looking around. The first thing that happened was the little tab fell out. The little tab that goes under a bolt (which one??) and has a nut welded to it... Its in my pictures. Anyway, so I picked that up and continued to remove the arm. It came off without much of a problem. I got it off and the first thing I noticed was that the ball/nut thing was lose. Yeah.. Not even finger tight. I take it that there is tranny oil behind that ball/nut? It had one washer behind it as well (as seen in the photos). Do I need another one since my flywheel is ground pretty low? I got it all apart and cleaned it up. Surprisingly, it was pretty clean under there. The plastic cup that goes over the ball/nut thing was white and didnt look used at all. The throw out bearing spins freely without any snags or bumps. The plastic 2 end pieces look good.
What was my problem? = ) Was it the little thing that fell out? Was it the oilly clutch?
Here are the photos.
Eric
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I pulled the throw out bearing arm off and did some looking around. The first thing that happened was the little tab fell out. The little tab that goes under a bolt (which one??) and has a nut welded to it... Its in my pictures. Anyway, so I picked that up and continued to remove the arm. It came off without much of a problem. I got it off and the first thing I noticed was that the ball/nut thing was lose. Yeah.. Not even finger tight. I take it that there is tranny oil behind that ball/nut? It had one washer behind it as well (as seen in the photos). Do I need another one since my flywheel is ground pretty low? I got it all apart and cleaned it up. Surprisingly, it was pretty clean under there. The plastic cup that goes over the ball/nut thing was white and didnt look used at all. The throw out bearing spins freely without any snags or bumps. The plastic 2 end pieces look good.
What was my problem? = ) Was it the little thing that fell out? Was it the oilly clutch?
Here are the photos.
Eric
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The retaining clip with the nut welded to it secures the release arm to the pivot ball. I would replace the retaining clip with a new one while you have the car apart as it can fail due to fatigue, as mine did.
ARGGGG Well, I am trying to get the seal out and am having a hell of a time with it. Here are some pictures of before I started and where I am at now. I read 5 or 6 other posts about removing the seal. Captn says to use a screw driver. Someone else suggested drilling a hole in it and then pulling it out that way. I tried to drill it... Did I get to close to the edge? SHI*!!! How do I get this out?
Eric
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Eric
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Now after my attempt to remove the seal...
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I have had that problem as well. Pushed it farther in while trying to get it out. A professional who worked at an independent Porsche shop and was once a dealer P. mechanic, advised me as follows: "Back in the day, we used to just drive them back in on the shaft. Never hurt a thing spinning there. Then install the new seal." That's what I did.
QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ May 9 2009, 09:53 AM)
Pushed it farther in while trying to get it out.
Is that pushed in? Thats the way it was when I opened it up. Look at the big gap between the shaft and the seal... Is that correct? But thats where its been... It hasnt been pushed in. = ) Or at least by me. Whats one supposed to look like?
Scary to push it in if its meant to come out...
Eric
I agree that it was "scary". I had managed to get it so far back in that I would never get it out without disassembling the trans. Looks like your seal is already a bit farther in than normal, but I don't think it matters much. I think you just seat the new seal flush with the edge of the case.
As to the clearance between the seal and the shaft, the sealing surface is on the inner edge of the seal so some space on the outer edge is normal. Yours does look larger than I recall however. Others who have responded on this thread know more than I do. The Cap'n will probably get real "crusty" when he reads the "drive it in" solution!
As to the clearance between the seal and the shaft, the sealing surface is on the inner edge of the seal so some space on the outer edge is normal. Yours does look larger than I recall however. Others who have responded on this thread know more than I do. The Cap'n will probably get real "crusty" when he reads the "drive it in" solution!
Ever heard of a "seal puller"?
And yes, a lose pivot ball will leak oil.
Get a new flywheel as yours is on it's last leg anyways ...
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Andy
And yes, a lose pivot ball will leak oil.
Get a new flywheel as yours is on it's last leg anyways ...
Andy
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 9 2009, 10:49 AM)
Ever heard of a "seal puller"?
And yes, a lose pivot ball will leak oil.
Get a new flywheel as yours is on it's last leg anyways ...
AndyOrder a new pilot bearing too.
QUOTE(So.Cal.914 @ May 9 2009, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 9 2009, 10:49 AM)
Ever heard of a "seal puller"?
And yes, a lose pivot ball will leak oil.
Get a new flywheel as yours is on it's last leg anyways ...
AndyOrder a new pilot bearing too.
Where is the pilot bearing?
Eric
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 9 2009, 10:49 AM)
[u]Ever heard of a "seal puller[/u[/color]]"?
= ) Is there a particular brand or will the one at the local pep boys work?
Eric
Not sure about seal puller but local parts store should have something. May just be a tool with a hooked end to get behind the seal.
Pilot bearing is in the flywheel, shown here. I think there is a felt ring that goes with it as well.
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Pilot bearing is in the flywheel, shown here. I think there is a felt ring that goes with it as well.
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QUOTE(Cire @ May 9 2009, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(So.Cal.914 @ May 9 2009, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 9 2009, 10:49 AM)
Ever heard of a "seal puller"?
And yes, a lose pivot ball will leak oil.
Get a new flywheel as yours is on it's last leg anyways ...
AndyOrder a new pilot bearing too.
Where is the pilot bearing?
Eric
In the pic above it is in the center of the flywheel.
Here is the tool that I bought... It really didnt work. Its to long to get in there. So if you are taking on the task of changing out the seal DO NOT BUY this one...
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Here is what the seal looked like after it came out. SHOOT ME TWICE!!! Its not all there. I have no idea where the rest of it is. It looks like its just rubber thats missing but it still doesnt sit well with me. Is this even the right seal? Wow. What a mess...
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And now the climax... No good deed goes unpunished??? Every idiot has his day??? Wow... I guess the only I can say is that I would NOT drill out the seal unless you know EXACTLY What you are doing. If you are off, if that head moves a bit, if the rubber bits and pushed the head of your drill against the edge... You are done. I didnt even know there was an edge past what I could see. Make sure you know what you are doing... If the tranny is out take it to your local porsche guy.. It would be worth the 10 bucks to have him pull it.
Can it be fixed? Do we pull a gun out and shoot me in the leg?
#$%%^$%&^%^*^&(^&($#@#$@@!!!!!!
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Wow.... Since I am not driving... can I drink? = /
Can it be fixed? Do we pull a gun out and shoot me in the leg?
#$%%^$%&^%^*^&(^&($#@#$@@!!!!!!
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Wow.... Since I am not driving... can I drink? = /
Sudjestion? JB weld, keep it as close to the original machine work as possible. Then clean it up with fine (400-600 grit) sand paper. Its worth a try, I have fixed M/C cases with the stuff.
It looks as though you could drive the new seal in until it is almost past the "slot". As long as the outside of the seal gets at least 1/2 on the smooth bore it should seal OK. Do some measuring first so you don't go to far and lose the seal.
If you try to fill with epoxy/JB Weld be sure it is sanded/filed so that it is even or below the surrounding surface. If you leave it to high you will have a leak for sure.
If you try to fill with epoxy/JB Weld be sure it is sanded/filed so that it is even or below the surrounding surface. If you leave it to high you will have a leak for sure.
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