I've thought about doing a Megasquirt for a while now to replace my carbs. I have a Mallory that works great, so to keep the initial cost down as well as keep it simple, I want to do fuel only, but have an upgrade path available for ignition later. Ideally if this could be done for under $500 that would be fantastic.

So...

What is the easiest, cheapest, most simple solution for induction parts? Throttle bodies, injectors, TPS, etc...? Which MS unit has the flexibility to do fuel now and ignotion later without starting all over again with a different ECU?

Engine is a 2056 that is built on a 1.8 case and heads with a 2.0 crank, rods and P/Cs. Currently running dual Weber 40 IDFs. (my own note: 40 IDF 70 9A, Italy)

Just buy the TEC 2 Engine Management System I have and you will be ok.

Tell me what exactly you're talking about and maybe I will.

this is something I've thought about doing later, myself... I have most of the stock FI part, but no MPS, also with a 2056, running 40 IDFs...

I am interested too, would love to lose the single 32/36 on my 1.7L parts car and replace it with FI...

Come on Gint .... Electromotive TEC 2 Engine Management System. Uses mostly GM sensors, etc. Total programable engine management .... fuel & ignition.

You could be the "King of Bling"!

This is an important subject as our injection stuff gets old and parts go NLA.

So, I've been thinking about using something off if a Jap 4 cylinder. I think with a little reverse engineering a setup off like a Geo Tracker or one of the Kia engines could work.

No idea exactly what you're pimping though. Complete setup, half the parts, etc... But it's probably out of my budget anyway.

Back to the original subject...

Help me figure out what parts to use gang. Who's BTDT?

Megasquirt is pretty cheap and easy, and you can use most of the stock parts. On mine, I use the stock injectors, pump, Intake Air Temp, Cylinder Head Temp, and relay board. The manifold pressure sensor is built into Megasquirt, so thats all you need.

I've BTDT! It can easily be done for $500.

If you use MS1 for fueling now you can downoad MS&SE later, this will give you spark and fuel.

Wire harness is about $60( i suggest you go with a new harness).

TPS, $15-20, on the cheap.

It's possible to use the carbs. as TB's and get manifolds with injector ports or go back to the stock induction setup.

A relay board is about $60 suggested but not required

HP fuel pump and regulator are needed.

There are deals on used stuff, you might be able to find an assembled unit for a good price.

Go to the MS forums and check out some of the vendors.

There are lots of options, but it can be done for $500

My thoughts:
The ECU setup is going to eat up most of your budget, so you're going to need to use as many stock components as possible. The TPS is not compatible with any new system. Throttle bodies will be out of your price range, and without a bunch of R&D, stock FI setup will be your best bet.

You're not going to find a 'bolt on' setup since the TPS isn't compatible (as mentioned) and the injectors are low impedance and most new systems use high impedance injectors. You'll need to fabricate your own wiring harness, and I've found that this is the most PITA part of the setup. Wire crimp integrity is important, as well as wire routing and length.

My best recommendation would be to get a 'junker' motor that you can fire on a test stand with the FI setup. Get it all working reliably before you make the swap, then sell the 'junker'. I always hate to see a running car get relegated to the R&D cycle. Things will go wrong and cause problems. Driving your car while you're figuring it out is obviously preferable.

Good Luck!

Actually with the Megasquirt, the TPS isnt even necessary, you can run without it as well. You could do the whole system for less than $500 is you have access to all the stock FI parts.

Avoid the hassel of building it yourself,, go with a pre-built unit if you don't solder too well.

this place sells them pre made

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...2b053517d64063f

MS1 is the older version of the DIY FI there is less resolution in the maps,, slower CPU

MS2 is the newer version of the above chip,, faster and more memory blah blah.

Both of the above, MS1 & MS2 chips plug into a "motherboard" for the FI. Either version 2.2 or version 3. V3 adds some additional ignition control with an onboard VR sensor.

If you plan on running a Distributor with your CSOB FI,, you can get away with a V2.2 MS1,, this will run fuel only with only a wire to the coil for RPM.

Aside from my lack of patience/success with my super hacked rotary MegaSquirt project,, I do believe it's a good reliable FI system, with a really slick user interface.

-Rob

While you are shopping keep in mind that the coil on plug will be the ultimate ignition. Try to see if that can be brought in at some point. There is nothing that helps more than really good consistent spark and timing control. I too think the fuel is the first but as soon as that is under control the spark should be included and not put aside.

I like McMarks test engine idea. Hey, So am I off my nut to suggest using a modern FI off some 1.8 or 2.0 four banger? Find something with a blown up engine and strip the whole thing off including the injectors. Peel back the harness and strip everything that doesn't make spark or fire an injector... Transfer the guts from the distributor of the donor engine. I bet some crafty 914'r could make their engine run. Retain the test port in the donor harness to read and code errors.

I'm putting a 1300 GTI twin cam Suzuki Swift engine in a 1959 Austin Healey. I stripped the harness of all the crap that doesn't make spark or fire the injectors or run the distributor. I'll let you know if I can get it running. It's a slow process for me. I aalways have too much on my plate.

Junkyard Subaru parts look interesting...

Most modern fuel injection systems are tuned to the engine that they were built for. This would make it a bit more difficult to fit to a type 4. Also most newer fuel injection uses a mass air flow meter, instead of manifold pressure. This would mean that you would need to bring the intakes from both sides of the engine together, and feed them through 1 MAF. It could be done, but I think you would spend far more time and money trying to get something from the junk yard to work than to get megasquirt or something similar. Keep in mind that any fuel injection system will need to be tuned, and even a junkyard system may require a $250 programmer, whereas the megasquirt can be programmed with just a pc.

what cam are you running?

i've been thinking about this too...

if you have webber manifold then bmw bike throttle boddies work great.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-K100RS-...sQ5fAccessories
k100 throttle boddies. similar spacing to webber and around about 40mm from memory. will flow better than carbs as they have nothing inside them. injector ports built in but injectors will be too small. generaly find something with similar size engine and power to what you have now and you will get cose to the mark. junkyards never charge much for them anyway.
couple of guys here in aus use Gotech efi which has close loop control of fuel system which makes it much less of a hassle tuning. they are a south african company who started doing vw golfs and have a fair following of aircooled stuff now which is handy for base maps.
other brand ecus include Microtech, haltech and autronic. have to give the local produce a good word dont i.
if you run electronic poinst replacement then it is easyish to trigger but crank/cam trigger can be more accurate depending on how it is done.
many options out there.
cheers
edwin

Hey Edwin - do you have the center-to-center spacing and outside diameter? I'd imagine I'd need to find someone with a mill or water cutter to make an adapter plate.

One of the main points of this exercise is to eliminate the expensive stock parts.


Yeah, I know. The major expense seems to be the intake and TBs.


No idea and the cam was the only thing I couldn't find in PO doco was cam info. I assume it's stock though. Sure doesn't feel too wild.

vw (jetta, golf, sirroco, etc) CIS. ed morrow used the system (audi version) on his turbo car. you can prob pick up a complete running car for your target price rather than piecing out of a junk yard. on the 85' jetta we had, the f.i. never gave us one ounce of trouble in over 270k miles. don't know the excact mileage as the odometer quit.

k

Again, your carbs can be used as TB's, change the manifolds for a pair that has inj. ports. Or sell what you have to buy TB's

A stock induction can be had for a fairly low price a will work fine.

you can get away with NOT using a TPS but they are cheap and easy to retrofit to the stock TB.

There was a suggestion to get an MS2 they are great units but that drives the cost up almost double.

For your app. , the MS1 is more than plenty and will give you the opputunity to run spark later. ask me how I know( MS1,V3.0 running MS&SE with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a Ford EDIS coil, BTDT, it's in my sig.).

Your original goal is to do it for $500 or less, simple answer is , yes you can.

Manifolds for 1.8 heads with injector ports? Where exactly? And cheap...

BTW, once again this is on 1.8 heads, not 2.0 units. Some of the talk here about using stock parts seems to be related to D-Jet and I would need to use L-Jet stuff if I wanted go that route.

not necessarily... the 1.8 heads have the same bolt ups as a 1.7, so a 1.7 Djet's parts would bolt up to your 1.8 heads...

I thought I saw someone take carb manifolds, and mount taller towers on them and mount the injectors in the manifold, using the stacks as the throtle body. looked pretty sweet, too, looks of carbs but running of the FI...

if the Megasquirt replaces the MPS, I might be able to figure it out.. maybe next year tho... I want to DRIVE my car this year

Wayne, you mean something like this?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=93207&hl=

Doesn't the type IV have a single TB to common runners now? Replace it with the TB from the junker along with the injectors, MAS, O2 sensor and ECM,Transfer the dist guts and fire it up. If you use everything, the sensors on late model stuff will fatten or lean the fuel via the O2 Sensor right?

Maybe..?? I'm an old school carb guy. Give me three Holley's or 2 center squirters and I can make it run in the 12's. Injection...

If your just replacing injection with injection and the cam is correct for injection, (short lift long duration) I can't help thinking this would work. There are some very smart injection systems built by really smart guys for mass production autos. I think as long as the distributor works the rest of the system would self adjust.

Forgot about that 1.7 junk. D'oh!

There isn't a readily available manifold that comes with injector ports. I just replied to Andy's ad though telling him I'll take the ones he had made. Kinda spaced that too until now. As for using carbs for TBs, of course it could be done. And the pics you saw could have been something like Jenvey TB's also which are very expensive. I recall someone on the board here with a set of them installed.

Edit. Like this: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=53733&

megasquirt with some motorcycle throttlebodies

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93207




Btw, i also have a spare set of 40 IDF dual webers you can have. I already started to take off all the fuel related parts so i could use them as throttle bodies.

That way, you can use readily available air cleaners and a good linkage. All you need to do is plug all the fuel related passages.

Andy

Tanxalot!
Got your PM. Done. Throw 'em in the box with the manifolds please.

yep... I think they had tall towers and didn't use the carbs... but it's been a while, and I'm old

YES! those were the ones I saw... I knew I didn't dream that!

They're not carbs though. They're expensive TBs. I think Andy's stuff will work out OK. We'll see.

Just spoke with a mechanic friend. He has a complete injection on a Saab Turbo. drum roll please.... Price.... Free He confirmed this should run any 4 cylinder and also mentioned there are a ton of these and Volvo units in the salvage yards so parts should not be an issue. A hall effect distributor and block temp sensor are a couple of the items he mentioned that would need to be added for the system to function. I have a 1.7 under the bench just waiting for an experiment like this...

CIS injection from a VW GTI w/ Bus runners , plenum and trottle body and KKK-26 turbo from a Audi 5000 S very reliable going on 9 years now

Keep 'em comin gang! This is great.

My initial plan was to use a common plenum with just one throttle body like on modern FI systems.

I took a 3.2L plenum and it's almost a perfect match to the intake runners pictured above. The bolt holes are only off by a bit.
The plan was to cut off two of the six runners from the plenum and weld it shut and use the stock 3.2L throttle body.

However, the 3.2L plenum proofed to be expensive, so i decided to try the individual TBs instead using 40 IDF webers ...
Andy

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

That's cool!

The problem with using watercooled stuff is exactly that.. It is for water cooled, and assumes that the engine is considered warmed up at 170-180 degrees. This is still pretty cold for an air cooled motor. You would still need an O2 sensor for the system to work, but since they only use narrowband sensors, and have limited adjustment for the fuel map, you would quickly end up with a check engine light (if you bothered to wire one in)

I've got a couple of Megasquirt 1 kits. You can have one if you want to go that path.

That would be awesome James. I can't take it for free though. I'll send a PM to discuss.

Sorry to thread hi-jack... I'm a newb, but I have a 3.0L that has been converted to carbs. I'd love to be able to convert it to a modern FI system, but wouldn't have a clue where to start.

Anyone have any links that would get me started? Should I be looking in the 911 forums instead?

Thanks.

You might want to start a new thread on that topic...

I'm no expert on the Porsche flat-6, but you need to find out (if you don't already know) what cams are installed on your engine. I'm pretty sure that CIS cams are different from cams that would be used with carbs.

A little more specialized and I'd like to keep this thread focused on the 4 cylinder.

I've now worked with MS1, MS2 and SDS. I've now run all tree for quite awhile over the years and all three have survived long road trips (2000 + miles each). The cheapest is MS1 and it will work pretty darn well. I ran it doing fuel only and used a Pertronix triggering an MSD 6a for ignition on a 2056. I enjoyed that. I felt it had more low end torque but, I couldn't prove it. I did have it dynoed and the guy who did that coaxed a couple more hp out of it so, I think road tuning probably leaves a little performance on the table.

As McMark said earlier, the harness is the real challenge with either MS. When I had failures and I did like crapping out in rush hour traffic a couple of times it was always harness or connector related. Once I broke a wire and the other time the connector came loose. There is shielding that needs to be done and I think MS is more susceptible to electromagnetic interference than SDS, but, it can be overcome.

My only complaint with the system is the correction for intake air temperature. It is extrapolated from 3 resistance, temperature pairs and I found that the air fuel mixtures varied with temperature because of that. The intake air temp in my setup would really vary as the sensor was in the plenum in the stock location and it was subject to heat soak. So, whether the correction was off because of the location of the sensor or the table generated by the program, it was off.

MS, either one, is a tinker's dream. I found I was always getting my laptop out and messing with it cause there was always something new to try. That's not necessarily bad but you got to like that kind of stuff.

If I wanted cheap, I'd find a 2 liter intake, get 1.8 injectors cause they have much better connectors and new connectors to fit them are available (they will put out plenty of fuel). I'd move the intake air sensor to the snorkel. I'd go to a pick and pull and find a workable TPS. I'd use the stock AAR for warmup. I'd buy a MS1 kit and a relay board and start soldering. Then I would schedule a bunch of time to tinker with it and tune it. It will cost more than you plan on unless you work with someone who has done this before. Plan on some dyno time with a tuner if you can.

I think the trade off is your money or your time. I think MS works and probably just as well as most systems, I just think it is way more work.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Harness huh... I've heard that twice now. I hadn't thought about it that much yet. Hmmm...

I can be anal about wiring. I don't love it, but I can do it. At least if I'm building my own I'll know what I have.

Thanks for starting a great thread. Long overdue in hindsight.

How about the MicroSquirt system

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html

Contact Autosport Engineering in Stow MA.
A porsche shop.

They have designed and built a bolt on setup to bring 911's back to FI.

Rich