I usually get stupid on the weekends...

I'm not quite sure what the flasher relay looks like. Are you saying chattering box has a connector with a plug? How many wires are on the plug and do the wire colors match the wire colors in the schematic?

Here's what I'm referring to. This is what my fuse #9 looks like:
Click to view attachment

The flasher relay (the one that now chatters me crazy, and also makes the normal turn signal and 4 way flasher clicks) is a rectangular metal box that plugs in the horizontal part of the dash that the knee pad attaches to. I need to go get a mirror, but there must be a plate attached to the dash there, and the relay simply pushes down into the plate for contact. Very hard to get to and almost impossible to see in there. Heading out to Harbor Freight right now for a mirror to help me see in there better.

Nice pic of the fuse. The side with one wire is the hot side. The side with the 2 lugs is the protected (by fuse 9) side. This is the side to measure. Here we'd be looking for any jumping of the voltage caused by other loads.

I think the flasher relay is a little metal box. The wires should be in either a connector or somehow attached to the plate. I've never taken one apart so I have no experience with dissassembly.

If there is a connector, we can still work with that. What we wand to do is this:

1) Check the voltage into the circuit on pin 49. This should be stable for all loading (lights, radio, wipers, etc)

2) Check the ground wire resistance on Pin 31. This should be very low resistance. Like 0 to 1 ohms.

3) Find some other electrical path on pin 49a that causes the load that causes the chatter.

Yeah...the chatter box is a rectangular prism, silver in color, and is mounter on one of those round rubber bases just like the relays on the back of the fuse panel. I guess I need to not only pull the relay but also remove the base to get to the wires. Are tjose nipples easy to get back in? Any tricks in removing or reinstalling?

Dude, your a guest, behave like one.

Rich

I concur...guests and "hosts" should treat people decently.
Ken

I didn't think i stepped on your toes. Did i?

If so, i apologize!
Andy

Not at all. Already thought I made that clear. I have nothing but appreciation and good feelings about you !

Just checked out the voltage on the "cold" side of fuse #9. My voltage meter is an older analog one, so we're not talking exact readings here, but I'm getting 12 volts with no load on it and even as I add on other loads. When I turn on the headlights I get a very small drop, that then recovers...almost imperceptible. I'm guessing this is normal ?

Out to pull the flasher relay.

As to check point 3 below...pin49A, the BLK/GRN/WH wire, only goes to the turn signal switch and the four way flasher switch. Others were saying that any item on the same ground circuit could be activating this flasher relay if they were not properly grounded...juice could be coming in through the ground?

P.S. Gave up for awhile on getting this damn relay out of it's socket...very stubborn little bugger.

Got it out...off to test the hot and ground. I'm starting to understand this crap.

OK...pin 31 (ground) is excellent. Pin 49 is getting 12 volts and it's not fluctuating with the different loads. This seems wrong though...as soon as I turn on the ignition, the flasher relay is getting 12 volts, but it's not making any sound. I guess it's quiet until it gets a signal from the flashers through one of the other pins?

Yeah...after looking at the schematic, I think it's normal for the red lead to be "hot" as soon as the ignition is turned on. Seems the flasher relay is good as is its ground and power source. My rookie guess is till that something else is wrong and is powering up the relay through the ground wire.

Significant evidence seems to me to be:

When I took delivery of the car, the problem did not exist. The brake light switch on the brake pedal was so far out of adjustment that no brake lights went on. I fixed that. Unplugging it does not eleviate my current problem. The handbrake switch was screwed up and did not work either. I freed that up now and it works. There was no bulb in the multi gauge for the handbrake light / brake failure. A PO had[i] to have removed it because of some electrical glitch that had it on all the time.

When I took delivery of the car, the turn signal indicators were screwy. One of them would flash correctly (can't remember which one), and the other would start to flash on its correct side, and then both arrows would start to flash at the same time.

My memory on that is a bit hazy, but i have seen a lot of 914s do that. It's either a bad switch or a ground problem.

I fixed it on my car by adding an additional ground to those bulbs, but that's a bandaid.
I think they are supposed to be grounded at one of the switches.


But like i said, it's been years since i worked on this the last time. Maybe it's time to whip out the good 'ole search function because i also vaguely remember a solution posted here a while ago.

Andy

Never had any luck with the search function on this site...not sure why.

Did some searching and found that others have hd simiar problems with many different solutions. Found this:

>I noticed the other night my turn signal relay just started clicking when I was out driving around. My turn signals still work but the relay continues to click.

Do any brake master cylinder work on the car lately?
Is your brake fluid level getting low?
The relay circuit includes the brake warning system.

Two weeks ago I replaced the master cylinder in my 914. First time I fired it up with the new MC, the turn signal relay started clicking none stop[the relay drives every light that flashes] . The brake warning light would flash occasionally, but the relay kept clicking constantly.

Drove me crazy for two weeks. Bled the brakes a few times, but that did not satisfy the brake warning system. The brakes felt & performed fine.

Problem solved:
The new master cylinder came with a single wire sensor, the old MC had a 2-wire sensor(Gnd & signal). So I installed the old sensor on the new MC when I first installed it. It turns out the new sensor's plunger length is shorter than the old sensor's, by about 1/8". So I shortened the old sensor's plunger to match the length of the new sensor's, and now no more flashing brake warning light, and no more signal relay clicking.

Moral of this tale?
Since you probably don't have a mis-matched master cylinder to brake warning sensor,
your brake fluid warning system may be about to trigger.

When both flashed together, were they 1/2 brightness? This seems to be a common failure of the flasher relay. Look at the schematic and imagine what happens if the center connection of the indicator lights doesn't connect to pin 49 as the schematic shows. If the relay on pin K doesn't close when the turn signals are on, both lamps will light and will split the voltage 6v across each lamp.

Like Andy mentioned, if the center connection of the indicator lamps is disconnected from pin K and connected to ground, then each indicator will flash as desired. The bulbs will have to be reversed in their sockets since the right indicator is connected to the left bulbs and the left indicator to the right bulbs.



You can check this in 2 ways. Disconnect the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to chassis. This measurement should show less than 1 ohm.

Second way is to measure voltage on the brown wire to chassis when power is applied to loads like brake lights, radio, wipers, etc. This measurement should show zero voltage if the wire is ok.

Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything.

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.

On this part should I be powered up and trying items other than the 4 ways and flashers?


[/u][/i]Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything.

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.
[/quote]

No power on this test. You are looking for something that is an electrical load on the flasher. The electrical load may present itself as a resistance to ground.

Something is loading the flasher such that it tries to turn on all the time. There may be a path of resistance from pin 49a to ground that we're looking for.

In general, the flasher is a simple circuit. It only has 3 real pins (discounting pin K):
o Power pin 49
o Ground pin 31
o Output pin 49a

If power pin 49 is ok (no wild voltage swings during operation) and ground pin 31 is ok (no noticeable voltage on the ground pin during operation), then that leaves just output pin 49a.

You can check this in 2 ways. Disconnect the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to chassis. This measurement should show less than 1 ohm. PERFECT

Second way is to measure voltage on the brown wire to chassis when power is applied to loads like brake lights, radio, wipers, etc. This measurement should show zero voltage if the wire is ok. PERFECT

Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything. [b]PERFECT

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.
[/quote]

So, if the flasher relay passes all of these tests. Where do I go from here? Since even just using that circuit the way it's supposed to be used , like using the 4 way flashers, causes the relay to go crazy, doesn't that indicate that the relay itself is bad? Can there be another explanation? If there's no load going into that relay at all and the using the flashers or 4 way flashers causes it to go crazy, what else could be the explanation other than a bad relay?

OK...decided to run every possible test on the relay itself for resistance. Here's what I found:

49 - K = ∞
49A - K = ∞
31 - K = ∞

49 - 49A = 300
49A - 31 = 1900
49 - 31 = 1800

I'd say buy a new relay or try one known to be good from a friend's car. That
will either solve the problem or eliminate the relay as a possibility. You could
also try tracing all the wires involved and look for shorts, cracks in the insulation,
bad connections, etc.

You could also try taking out all the fuses except #9 and see if the problem still
exists. If it still exists, the problem is in this circuit. If the problem goes away,
try adding fuses back one by one. When it comes back, then there must be
some interconnection in the circuits that is causing the problem. Having hard
information like this is very helpful in finding the problem.

I am no expert on 914 wiring, and this advice may not help, but I know from
engineering that you need to isolate the problem, and definitively rule things out
one by one. Often times the hardest bugs to track down were ones that people
thought "for sure" they had ruled out. Usually it turned out that they "assumed"
that something was good instead of "testing" it for sure. This caused them to
look at every other possibility except the one they "assumed" was ok.

I need to debug my blue car here soon and I am sure I will have similar
issues.

Good luck.

John

Thanks.

The resistances of the relay look good. I don't think the relay is at fault.

Sorry for asking for all the measurements. Troubleshooting from afar is pretty difficult. We're trying to isolate the issue. There is (usually) one thing wrong but it's hard to find. Experiments and measurements will help isolate the issue.

In previous tests, what was the resistance of the ground wire (brown) to chassis that you measured before?

Have you tried this test: remove the 49a wire from the flasher relay and turn the power on. This should remove all loads from the flasher and it should not chatter. This will also confirm your 12V power and ground connection. No lights will flash, but then again we're just trying to isolate the issue.

I have another test in mind but it's really radical. I'll dump this one on you later if the issue still exists.

Ground wire (31) has always shown zero.

Just eliminated 49A and the problem still exists. No lights flashed but the other power sources still got the relay to chattering.

I can't help you with your problem but I see Spoke is here and he helped me fix my problem I was working on for Months. he was very patient and really knows how to trace! Good luck and don't give up.

I read through your ordeal last night and it gave me the boost I needed not to go out and beat up an old lady...saw that you were pretty lost (like I am), but stuck it out and conquered it through these good friends, like Spoke and the others.

OK. This is good news. This eliminates any of the loads (master cylinder switch, ebrake switch, etc.) from causing the problem. We're narrowing down the possible issues. With 49a removed, you are just connected to power (49), ground (31), and the indicator lamps (K).

Try to remove K at the same time 49a is removed. This leaves just power (49) and ground (31) connected. If the chatter continues with K and 49a removed, then just power and ground are connected.

Good stuff here.

I'm wondering about the relay too at this point.

silverteener has an extra flasher relay

Took out all the fuses except #9. Everythiing was fine, so I started adding them back. The final result was that if I have all the fuses in except #8 and #11, all is quiet. When I add #11 or #8 all hell breaks loose again.

Also, if I leave all fuses out except #8, problem exists...leave all out except #11, problem exists.

OK, just to clarify, you still have pins 49a and K disconnected? Keep them disconnected if you have found the issue still happens with them disconnected.

More clarification: When you added #11 with #8 removed, you also turned on the 4-way flasher?

With #11 in with #8 removed, is there a difference with 4-ways on and off?

Just ordered a flasher relay with 1 day delivery...just so I can keep you guys up to date without too much lag time. Is it just me or does AA's inventory seldom match it's catalog (online one at that) as to brand, price, etc.? Yesterday I got a really quick, rude blowoff from their tech guy. I've only been dealing with AA and PP for about two months now, but I always seem to be going back to PP...so much so that I may just go to them consistently from now on.

When I did the "Fuse Experiment" I put the relay back in fully. Also, I never had "K" disconnected...you said remove 49A...nothing about removing "K".

With just #8 removed the problem exists as soon as I pull the 4 way switch on...even with no ignition.

Should I now do the fuse experimetn with both 49A and K removed?

When you pull the 4-way switch with no ignition, are other loads on like lights? The 4-way when pulled powers the flasher w/o ignition on. That is the top switch in the 4-way flasher in the schematic. It gets power from #11 regardless of the ignition switch.

Yes, please try with both 49a and K removed. Just trying to eliminate variables. It will be interesting to see if your new relay reacts differently.

So fuse #8 controls the wiper, fan blower, lighter, and something else that I
can't read on the pelican diagram.

I would trace the wires for these and look for shorts with fuse #11 wires.
What happens when you turn the wipers or blower fan on, I think you mentioned
that somewhere before?

Maybe your cig lighter fried some wiring nearby and melted with it.

John

If I pull the 4 way flasher by itself or with other loads (headlights, radio) on, that makes no difference. Either way the flasher goes nuts.

I'll go pull #49A and K and get back.

What each fuse controls is different wherever I look! The wipers effect the problem as do all devices on the dash. I have no cigarette lighter.

OK...removed 49A and K. No difference. Well, the actual light in the 4 way switch didn't illuminate, but the squawk was the same.

Thinking out loud...this all surfaced after I got the brake lights working again by adjusting the screw on the switch. It was wayyyyyyyy off. I've since tried unhooking the switch to no avail. Would returning the screw adjustment to it's way off position and plugging it back in change anything? Returning it to "as it was" before I adjusted it? Isn't unhooking it good enough? What, if anything, would returning it to its "pre-problem" condition do?

Thanks. 49a also powers the light in the flasher so it would be expected that the lamp doesn't light.

I'm not sure that the brake light adjustment had anything to do with the flasher relay chattering. Since 49a and K are not connected, the only connections are power (49) and ground (31).

You ordered a new relay but if you wanted to try one other thing, you could do try temporarily replacing ground and power to the relay, one at a time.

Get a length of wire say 3 feet long and put a spade connector on it. Tie one end to a chassis point (screw or nut somewhere) and the other to pin 31. This will bypass the ground wire and essentially take the original wire out of the circuit. See if the chatter continues.

If the chatter continues with the new ground, then try the same thing for pin 49. For this test, connect 31 back to its brown ground wire, and connect 49 to the spaded wire. Carefully place the other end of the spaded wire in between the cold side of fuse 9 and its holder. Turn power on and see if it chatters.

Or just wait til tomorrow to try the new relay.

Right now I'm ready to set it on fire. In fact, I already did that. In the hopes that the new relay will be the answer, I started putting some stuff back together. I put the three main instruments back in, as well as the extra temp gauge. Then I took out all of the light bulbs in the rear and front turn signals, brake lights, etc. Tested to see if the relay still squawked. Smoke started billowing out of the dash. I shut off the ignition and was deciding whether to roll it out of the garage for the upcoming car-b-que, because it seemed to be gathering gusto. Well...it stopped. One of the black/blue wires with a bulb on the end of it, for the speedo (which I took apart a week or so ago) had melted all the way down to the copper. This wire had also been spliced into to provide light for the extra temp. gauge. These speedo lights were the same ones that wanted to ignite the other night when they were touching the ignition switch, lit up, and started to cause anther 9/11 in my garage.

I'm very close to flat bedding the car to a "Pro" somewhere and just get my check book raped...I'll wait to see what, if anything, the new relay does, and start working on repairing my harness.

Sorry to hear of your car-b-q. It is unfortunate but not the end game. Don't lose hope now. Wait until the new relay arrives then continue on. If it is only one wire that wire can be eliminated and a new wire run in its place.

This advice might be a bit late but it is a good rule to work by when toying with electrical systems: any time you are messing with a lot of wires or lowering the fuse panel, always disconnect the negative cable from the battery. When you have everything situated, then re-connect the battery.

I hear you...easy to get lazy when you're running back and forth sixty times a day trying out something new...I've learned.

CAR-B-Q MYSTREY[b] ...so what can be the reason for the blue/black wire on one of the speedometer lights frying? The light was installed in the speedo and the speedo had been reinstalled in the dash. Also had a previous lesser melting on the red/black coming off of fuse #12 (could have been from a PO).

Also, to replace the melted wire (blue/black for speedo light)...it's connected to the light socket, so I need to replace that as well. How does one go about that job?

Black with a blue strip is the illumination circuit for the gauges. You probably had the headlight switch pulled, and something grounded one of the black/blue wires. It might be time to find an old wiring harness to rob for parts.

Don't give up, don't take it to a "Pro". You're really close to figuring this out, and since I've had the same problem on mine for 10 years (& had more than one Pro look at it) I'm interested to see how you fix yours.


BTW, there are more place than just PP & AA.

For the melted wire, I think all the illumination lights are powered by the headlight switch. They all come off the light dimmer part of the headlight switch. Go there and look for the fried wire.

Follow the wire as best you can to make sure you have the right one. Cut off the bad part of the wire and tape up the dangling part. Just make sure you have the right wire.

About the light socket, without seeing a pic of it it's hard to tell if it's fried. Anyone with a few extra parts probably has a bunch sitting around for cheap or free. Put out a WTB: ad in the classifieds for one of these. I have a couple but am heading out for a biz trip for a week and don't have time to ship.

Once fixed, try the lights again to make sure nothing else is amiss before reassembly.

Do tell...here or PM.

Click the link in Mark's sig...

Edit: Not a link. Make that... call the number in Mark's sig.