Where is the ground numbered #83 (Ground connection "B") on a 1970 914? It's not the one in the rear trunk, and not the one by each headlight. It's the one that grounds all the dash switches, door switches, fan and heater switch, etc.

Behind the dash, drivers side.

Unscrew the fuse panel and let it hang down and you should be able to see it.
You might have to practice your rubber-neck routine beforehand ...

Andy

Great...out to the garage again...slide in backwards...fight the mosquitoes...and clean. If this doesn't do it...wanna buy a car?

Don't give up Ken!!!

Electical problems are only second to oil pressure problems when it comes to frustration.

Not only can you figure this out, but once you do, you will feel like you have mastered your car.

That is a good feeling.

I was just kidding...I am actually having fun. That connection under the fuse box where "Cupofmeat" sent me is where a bunch of red (hot) wires meet up. I'm looking for the connection point for all of the ground wires (brown) convene for the dash electrics.

Ooops...meant Sir Andy.

its there on the inner fender above the fuse box...its not easy to see.
Its up there pretty high.

Rich

Remove speaker housing and heater pipe for easier access iirc.

OK...thanks guys...here I go again.

There's also one by the relay board in the engine compartment you'll want to clean.

Did that one and the one for that battery yesterday. Dremeled all the paint off at the base...coated with dielectric grease, even polished up the washers and nuts (not mine, but close...not much room to work back there).

Don't forget the ground strap on your transmission.

While you're in there.
Andy

"While you're in there"? I'm under the dash...how long do you think my arms are?

Hey, just remember that there is no "F" in Cup O'Meat!

If you want to know what that is all about check out some of our recent work (as the website is in flux) at

http://vimeo.com/channels/cupomeat

Knowing how long your arms are, you could probably surf the web while fixing the ground problem on both the gearbox AND the fuse panel. I guess, maybe you need 3 eyes... LOL

Watched a bit...still not sure exactly what "Cup O' Meat" is (sorry). Hobby? Business? Art? All three?

OK...ground connection #83 was not that hard to get to...didn't need to remove the speaker cover or heater hose. It's right on the back of the spot where the reds all came together. It was just hiding from my eyes. It was very clean, but I "worked it" even more. Didn't address my problem. I'll do the tranny ground strap tomorrow, but I;m betting its not the issue, based on the following:

Problem didn't exist when I bought the car two months ago, and didn't surface until I started doing work on the speedo and the brake lights. Evidence suggests It has something to do with either the work I did on the speedo ( wihch included taking off the steering wheel), or the brake lights (they wee not working until I adjusted the brake light switch).

Speedo is now out again, and problem still exists. Steering wheel is off and problem still exists.

So, when I turn on the ignition, all is quiet. Turning on signals, radio, wipers, headlights, or hitting the brakes, causes the flasher relay thing (rectangular upright thing behind the dash that mounts in the far left recesses of the dash) to chatter at 10x it's normal speed. If I then turn off whatever device caused it to start this chatter, the chatter continues until I turn off the ignition. There must be some evidence in the fact that any electrical load from any switch causes only that flasher to squawk.

You mention you adjusted the brake light switch. What happens when you unplug it?

My gremlin still exists with the switch unplugged.

Take out all gauges, remove the face-plate and inspect the top of the switches.

Either something fell on to one and is shorting out a switch or one or more wires got lose when you pulled the speedo the first time.

Andy

Hobby and art, but not much business...

The movies don't explain the creation of Cup o'meat, sorry, just what we are.

the name came from a 1993 idea about a bare bones fast food restaurant that never came to fruition. It them morphed into the production company it is now.

"Remove the face plate"...you mean the surround that holds the three gauges?

Do you see any other face-plates with gauges in it?

Yes, the big black thing with three large holes. Once removed, you'll have a little bit better access to the switches.

One of them flexible mirrors comes in handy when working on this stuff ...
Andy

"Take out all the gauges, remove the face plate", could also mean the individual face plates on each gauge. That would mean getting out the dynamite. Doing that to the speedo, sucked! Off to the garage!

I'm not nuts...just stupid (at least about this stuff...for now).

Alright...new evidence. I have all the gauges dangling and nothing is loose or missing that I can see or feel, but check this out... When I turn on the ignition, and make the flasher click like crazy by turning on the lights, radio, wipers...anything, I can make it stop by turning on the emergency flasher! Once the emergency flashers are on, everything else works fine and the buzzing stops.

I'm guessing this is because the flasher relay is getting more juice and Ill just have to ride around all the time with my 4 ways on, or is this some evidence of where the problem lies?

Don't mind Sir Andy.

He has a little chip on his shoulder, and likes to make you feel stupid I think to make himself feel a little better about himself.

Meanwhile the knowledge he uses to do this is fairly trivial, but whatever floats his boat

I love Sir Andy...been a great help. I didn;t really think he was trying to belittle me at all, he just didn't realize how uneducated I am about this shit. No offense at all.

Never mind...It only worked for a little while.

Alright...check this out...everything is hanging all over the place. The speedometer light bulbs, still in their sockets , are hanging down right in front of the ignition. With ignition off, I pull on the headlights, and the bulbs light up if they are touching the metal around the ignition. Is that kosher?

Yes, I like it when people act insulted over the possibility of ambiguous text myself. It is good to know that I always have him there for a reference of those who are better than I.

He has been a big help to me as well! I would not be where I am without him in my project!


Start looking for broken wires and things that could short. The electronics are not only weird in these cars but apparently that flasher relay interconnects to a bunch of random crap.


Maybe you can run without it?

Crack it open and see if it's all corroded or shorted inside?

I assume it just pulls upwards? What a weird spot to put something in that might have to be replaced one day. Even if it were corroded (this car is very clean and was stored for years in a heated, garage) I wouldn't think other devices and switches would set it off, would they?

If i remember correctly, that was *your* chip sitting on my shoulder ...

And you call my knowledge 'trivial' ...

Yeah, it is. Very trivial. Sorry. Just like your existence, trivial with an attempt to make yourself feel superior scoffing at others for almost no reason.


Anyone with wiring diagrams can read them and find it out. In fact I would rather do that than deal with reading some whiney text from you in the internet compensating for something else lacking in your life.

I can only imagine the raging mental internet elitist boner you probably have while sitting there attempting to write snarky replies and roll eyes a plenty.

Must be pretty pathetic living in your world.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but like you said to me, you are nothing special. Plenty of people know how to do this. If you want respect you are going about it the wrong way.


It's nice you want to help, but being a snobbish dick to people while doing so is pretty lame.


It's nice to socialize and share/help, but beating down others to make yourself feel better is pathetic.







PS Ken I have a copy of the 914 & 914/6 group 9 wiring diagrams. It appears to be a complete pdf scan of all the wiring diagrams throughout production.


PM me and I can get them to you offline so you can trace this all.

Or if you are local you can bring it by my place afte this weekend and we can look at it in person.

I promise I wont roll my eyes, turn my nose in the air or act better than you because I might be able to read a wiring diagram.

More "evidence". Pulling fuse #8 stops the chattering. Now, depending on whether I believe the Haynes manual or the owners manual...

Haynes says it controls (brake, blinker, backup lights, wiper, & cigarette lighter)

Owner's Manual says it controls (wipers, ventilator, horn & cigarette lighter)

Guys...you two obviously have some history, but I don't feel attacked, belittles or anything even close to that. I'm appreciating the help both of you are providing...really.

Anyway, just went out and turned the lights on (no ignition) and the lights that were dangling against the ignition started smoking, popping and gt VERY hot. No fuses burned out and doesn't look like anything got fried.

I have all of the schematics for all of the years in the Haynes manual (not doing me much good right now). Helped me to trace the handbrake switch, the brake swt=itch and everything else that's not solving this mystery.

Every haynes manual I have had for every car I have owned has been inaccurate and lacking in wiring diagrams.

This is the factory stuff.

Let me get the PDF to an SMTP friendly size and it will be headed to you!

Thanks.

It makes sense that the 4-ways stops the noise. See below, with 4-ways on, power comes from fuse 11. Fuse 11 powers the 4-way lights, clock and the seat belt warning system.

Fuse 9 (in my Haynes manual looking at 1974 MY) which powers the system when 4-ways are off, also powers the brake lights, backup lights, oil temp gauge, voltmeter, generator light, low fuel warning light, and fuel gauge sender unit. oil pressure indicator light, tachometer, fuel gauge.

Question: Does the noise stop when either turn signal is active?

Question: What is the voltage on fuse 9 when this happens? Make sure you measure the lug opposite where the power comes in.

Question: does the noise happen when the backup lights are on?

WOW, I leave this thread for a commute, dinner, kids time and walk of the dog and not only did we get to see a battle, we have a REAL possible answer!

If only I watched it in real time...

Maybe a savior! I need to go out and perform tests for questions #2 and #3, but I can tell you right now that yes...usuing the turn signals is "usually " the only way to get the noise to stop. I say "usually" because sometimes it does not, unless I go back and forth between left,right,left,right. That being said, the turn signals do seem to be the best way to get the chattering to stop, though not always a "quick" stop.

Some other tests to try:

On the flasher relay, remove ground pin 31. Measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to a nice clean chassis point. This should be 0 ohms or close to it.

On the flasher relay, remove wire from pin 49a. With power off, 4-ways off, turn signals off, parking brake off, measure resistance (ohms) from the wire to ground. This should be infinite ohms (very high resistance; like when the 2 voltmeter probes are not touching anything).

On the flasher relay, remove wire from pin 49. With voltmeter on VOLTS, measure voltage from the wire to chassis ground with lights on, 4-ways on, other electric loads. This voltage should be steady and not jumping around.

A side note:
When doing electrical testing and you remove wires, lamps, etc., do not let the fixture touch metal. The last thing you want is an unintended short circuit and blown fuse or melted wire. If you must remove and keep things off, wrap them with tape-any kind of tape.

Also, if you remove more than 1 wire, mark the wires and where they go. It is so easy to mis-connect wires when putting things together.

OK...just went out to "play". The turn signals will actually cause the chatter after a few seconds. At first they click normally, and then after 2-3 second the chatter begins. A few weeks ago when the problem first surfaced, it was applying the brakes that started the chatter, and a quick flick of the turn signal would stop it. With some experimenting today, use of the four way flasher will stop the chatter, but it often takes 2-3 pulls. Here's an example...

turn on ignition (not to starter), use turn signal. Sounds normal for a few seconds, then the chatter begins. Pull out 4 way flasher control and chatter gets worse...almost a constant buzz instead of rapid clicking. Use the 4 way switch a few more times, and all quiets down.

Question #3. Putting the beast into reverse does not cause the problem. Not sure if my reverse light even works. If that matters I'll close the garage door and see if the light is illuminating.

Question #2. When the chatter is happening, no matter which side of fuse#9 I place my analog, ancient, volt meter, the needle heads south! Goes below zero.

OK...no question #2 I had the wires reversed! My meter might not be spot on accurate, but I get the same reading on all three (+) poles as well as the (-) pole...a little less than 12 v.

OK...here's where I need to get stupid (tongue-in-cheek) again...the flasher relay, I'm assuming, is the rectangular box that's chattering away, and is sitting inside my dash just outboard of the headlight switch? I must be wrong here because this box is just a plug in with no obvious wires attached.

When you turn things on and off, does the voltage change much? Just checking in case there is resistance at the fuse. Are the fuse contacts and fuse box contacts clean? Emery cloth or fine sandpaper will clean them up nicely.

When you say "all three (+) poles", what are you referring to? On fuse #9?