Aftermarket FI options for Type 4 motors 2056 or larger, Who here has gone this route and is it worth it? What options do we have? Options

[rick 918-S]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

@VaccaRabite Zach, I'm controlling idle on my Microsquirt setup using timing advance/retard. Give it 30 seconds of throttle to get the heads warmed up (I'm still working on my cold start up sequence) but then it cores and smooths the idle like a mofo, you'd never know there wasn't an idle air control valve in there.

It's an option within TunerStudio settings and it works really, really well. - GA

EDIT: got home looked it up. TunerStudio, Startup/Idle, Idle Advance Settings, Change "Idle Advance On" to RPMs. Then Startup/Idle, Idle Advance RPM Settings, and you create a table how you want the timing to change based on RPM.

I have mine set to 15.4@700, 6.7@800, 0@950, -11.9@1100, and -17.9@1250. Cores my idle at 950 really nicely.

Note Startup/Idle, Idle Control, Idle Valve Type is set to "None".

Hey Greg! I have no idea what that means.... But I like it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Seriously, I am looking at Microsquirt for our Healey project. running a Suzuki Swift GTI Twin Cam Engine. The heads have builtin port injection and it runs a MAF system. The MAF (Mass Air Flow) system is bulky and ugly. I have 4 Motorcycle carbs I am starting to set up for throttle bodies only. I think it will look more like a carb'd Lotus engine and run like al modern car.

This is a great thread.

What is everyone running for a fuel pump and what do you think of an intank unit?

[jd74914]

In tank is the way to go if you can make it work. Pump stays cool all of the time and you remove an out of tank leak point. My favorite setups for normal engines also have the regulator integrated so you don’t need that external either.

With the ITBs you really need to use timing to control idle…IMO at least.

[ClayPerrine]

In tank is the way to go if you can make it work. Pump stays cool all of the time and you remove an out of tank leak point. My favorite setups for normal engines also have the regulator integrated so you don’t need that external either.

With the ITBs you really need to use timing to control idle…IMO at least.

A lot of the aftermarket injection systems are now running no fuel pressure regulator. Instead, they use a fuel pressure sensor, a solid state relay and pulse width modulation of the fuel pump circuit to regulate the pressure. So no pressure regulator and no return line. The ECU controls the fuel pressure and can increase and decrease it as needed for best efficiency.

I am installing a stepper IAC On my ITB setup. The timing changes can only do so much for the idle control. Think of it as the IAC controls the major idle speed changes. Timing fine tunes it.

[VaccaRabite]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

@VaccaRabite Zach, I'm controlling idle on my Microsquirt setup using timing advance/retard. Give it 30 seconds of throttle to get the heads warmed up (I'm still working on my cold start up sequence) but then it cores and smooths the idle like a mofo, you'd never know there wasn't an idle air control valve in there.

It's an option within TunerStudio settings and it works really, really well. - GA

EDIT: got home looked it up. TunerStudio, Startup/Idle, Idle Advance Settings, Change "Idle Advance On" to RPMs. Then Startup/Idle, Idle Advance RPM Settings, and you create a table how you want the timing to change based on RPM.

I have mine set to 15.4@700, 6.7@800, 0@950, -11.9@1100, and -17.9@1250. Cores my idle at 950 really nicely.

Note Startup/Idle, Idle Control, Idle Valve Type is set to "None".

Interesting. I'm assuming the timing retard jumps as soon as touch the throttle?

I know the engine Eric is building also uses an IAC, and its currently a sticking point as you can't get the bodies they plug into. I wonder if his team has looked into controlling idle through timing.

@eric_shea

[GregAmy]

Interesting. I'm assuming the timing retard jumps as soon as touch the throttle?

Haven't really noticed; I can send some logs if you'd like to look it over? But note there's also a setting in "Idle Advance Settings" where you control at what TPS and RPM it's affecting timing; mine is "below 2%" and "below 1200". Anything above that and it's using the ignition map.

I'll offer that this feature is giving me some minor headaches on the Toyota MR2 race car with radical cams. The engine either just wants to die near desired idle using low throttle body bypass (not enough air) or take off with more TB bypass (too much air) and there's not a lot of difference between the two TB settings.

I had to find a middle ground where I opened the bypass a tad more and aggressively pulled back timing below 5% TPS to core the idle at 1500 and set it to pull the idle timing below 2500 RPM (which is fine for a race car that lives at 5000-8000). - GA

[Gatornapper]

Impecable timing as to this thread - almost as if Phil was reading my mind.

In discussions with DrPhil this year he had told me about his 50nn throttle body for his D-Jet that he had gotten from Chris Foley when I expressed an interest in finding one for my D-Jet that I hope to install this summer on my 2056 rebuild.

I contacted Chris and he told me he got the 50mm TB here:

http://www.highperformancehouse.com/

from Rich and that it had been custom made with the throttle plate actually hammered out to increase its size.

I checked Rich's website and found this under Porsche:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/hosting.photobucket.com-21449-1712624115.1.png)

I never could get an answer at the number but left a message. Over a month later Rich called me.

He explained that the guy who bored out the original TB was no longer around but he did have one 48mm one left that he would let go for no less than $500.00. He also explained how the throttle plate was painstakingly hammered to proper size as Chris had.

$500 for 3mm increase in diameter - no thank you. Made me wonder if a machinist friend could not make one from scratch for that amount from my original 45mm one.

Friends are telling me that my present engine performance with dual IDF-40 EMPI clones is so good that I'd be a fool to go to D-Jet as there is no way it could perform as well. Even cold starts are no problem with 20 seconds of throttle-pumping all that is needed on the coldest days.

I'm going to follow DrPhil's lead on this most likely - depending on his budget. I think his budget flexibility is larger than mine.

I like the idea of using my original D-Jet with a 50mm TB & an AFR gauge which I already have. But if there is a way to get even more power with D-Jet and modern EFI benefits, I'd love to have that - if available at a reasonable cost.

GN

i started looking into this 2 years ago when i was planning my rebuild motor after the drpped valve seat on the OEM motor.
I ended up building a nice 2056 with increased compression, brand new heads, counter balanced crank and of course the cam is performance minded as well.
to start i installed the d-jet and later last year i added a 50mm bored out stock throttle body from Tangerine/Chris Foley. Yes this helped a great deal, but we are still limited due to the d-jet and the MPS. So there are a few people out there that make ITB( independant throttle body) that could be used.
One is Jenvey, and i see that PMB is carrying those. It looks ike they are mated to what ever IDF intake manifold you choose. there are 40, 45, 48 options. mated with 350cc injectors.
I am wondering other than the CB performance stuff that has been available for a while, others have come to the table, who here has played around with this ? over the years ive read a lot on others using the megasquirt and micro etc and it seemd they were very difficult to tune and set up with lots of problems, trial and error.

I am looking for advice on what to stay away from and what are the pitfalls and mistakes we can avoid before jumping into this.

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil

[DRPHIL914]

Impecable timing as to this thread - almost as if Phil was reading my mind.

In discussions with DrPhil this year he had told me about his 50nn throttle body for his D-Jet that he had gotten from Chris Foley when I expressed an interest in finding one for my D-Jet that I hope to install this summer on my 2056 rebuild.

I contacted Chris and he told me he got the 50mm TB here:

http://www.highperformancehouse.com/

from Rich and that it had been custom made with the throttle plate actually hammered out to increase its size.

I checked Rich's website and found this under Porsche:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/hosting.photobucket.com-21449-1712624115.1.png)

I never could get an answer at the number but left a message. Over a month later Rich called me.

He explained that the guy who bored out the original TB was no longer around but he did have one 48mm one left that he would let go for no less than $500.00. He also explained how the throttle plate was painstakingly hammered to proper size as Chris had.

$500 for 3mm increase in diameter - no thank you. Made me wonder if a machinist friend could not make one from scratch for that amount from my original 45mm one.

Friends are telling me that my present engine performance with dual IDF-40 EMPI clones is so good that I'd be a fool to go to D-Jet as there is no way it could perform as well. Even cold starts are no problem with 20 seconds of throttle-pumping all that is needed on the coldest days.

I'm going to follow DrPhil's lead on this most likely - depending on his budget. I think his budget flexibility is larger than mine.

I like the idea of using my original D-Jet with a 50mm TB & an AFR gauge which I already have. But if there is a way to get even more power with D-Jet and modern EFI benefits, I'd love to have that - if available at a reasonable cost.

GN

i started looking into this 2 years ago when i was planning my rebuild motor after the drpped valve seat on the OEM motor.
I ended up building a nice 2056 with increased compression, brand new heads, counter balanced crank and of course the cam is performance minded as well.
to start i installed the d-jet and later last year i added a 50mm bored out stock throttle body from Tangerine/Chris Foley. Yes this helped a great deal, but we are still limited due to the d-jet and the MPS. So there are a few people out there that make ITB( independant throttle body) that could be used.
One is Jenvey, and i see that PMB is carrying those. It looks ike they are mated to what ever IDF intake manifold you choose. there are 40, 45, 48 options. mated with 350cc injectors.
I am wondering other than the CB performance stuff that has been available for a while, others have come to the table, who here has played around with this ? over the years ive read a lot on others using the megasquirt and micro etc and it seemd they were very difficult to tune and set up with lots of problems, trial and error.

I am looking for advice on what to stay away from and what are the pitfalls and mistakes we can avoid before jumping into this.

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil

@Gatornapper

another option might be finding the GoWesty 52mm throttle body, not sure if they make them anymore, but Zach had posted on this a few years back and used one i believe on his 2056 , some modification may be necessary.

Phil

[DRPHIL914]

@Gatornapper

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=367336

https://gowesty.com/products/gowesty-throttle-valve-housing

says 4 left - these were out of stock and not being made when i got mine from Chris

[r_towle]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

@VaccaRabite Zach, I'm controlling idle on my Microsquirt setup using timing advance/retard. Give it 30 seconds of throttle to get the heads warmed up (I'm still working on my cold start up sequence) but then it cores and smooths the idle like a mofo, you'd never know there wasn't an idle air control valve in there.

It's an option within TunerStudio settings and it works really, really well. - GA

EDIT: got home looked it up. TunerStudio, Startup/Idle, Idle Advance Settings, Change "Idle Advance On" to RPMs. Then Startup/Idle, Idle Advance RPM Settings, and you create a table how you want the timing to change based on RPM.

I have mine set to 15.4@700, 6.7@800, 0@950, -11.9@1100, and -17.9@1250. Cores my idle at 950 really nicely.

Note Startup/Idle, Idle Control, Idle Valve Type is set to "None".

Hey Greg! I have no idea what that means.... But I like it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Seriously, I am looking at Microsquirt for our Healey project. running a Suzuki Swift GTI Twin Cam Engine. The heads have builtin port injection and it runs a MAF system. The MAF (Mass Air Flow) system is bulky and ugly. I have 4 Motorcycle carbs I am starting to set up for throttle bodies only. I think it will look more like a carb'd Lotus engine and run like al modern car.

This is a great thread.

What is everyone running for a fuel pump and what do you think of an intank unit?

A healey with a Suzuki motor using custom EFI.
Should be fun to get working!!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

[mepstein]

There are places to send a throttle body out, get it bored and a larger butterfly made. $150-250 usually. Just Google it. There’s more than one place to get it done.

In reality, 3mm can make a big difference, as you are increasing the diameter of a circle.
48mm to 51mm would be a 13% increase in area.

[VaccaRabite]

@Gatornapper

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=367336

https://gowesty.com/products/gowesty-throttle-valve-housing

says 4 left - these were out of stock and not being made when i got mine from Chris

I ran one of these on my 2056. It took a minimum amount of modifications to make it work on a 914. On my Microsquirt motor the bigger throttle body opened up a whole new row at the top end of my fueling table. I have the install noted on my build thread for the 2056.

Zach

[Gatornapper]

Thanks Ben - did not know that.

The 50mm (from 45) is a 23.4% increase in area which is what I'd like to see minimal.

I know volumetric flow is determined more by cam & valve size than anything, but when I figure dual 40 IDF's run so well with 3=4 x 40mm there has to be room for more flow than even a 50mm TB would allow.

But I would like to stick with the simplicity of my D-Jet too. and low cost of just replacing the TB with a larger one.

GN

[flxzcat]

There are places to send a throttle body out, get it bored and a larger butterfly made. $150-250 usually. Just Google it. There’s more than one place to get it done.

Kinsler Fuel Injection

https://kinsler.com/Shop/product-category/m...hrottle-plates/

will make or has custom throttle plates. They offer other thicknesses. Probably will bore the body as well. You will have to contact about boring as its not on their website

[flxzcat]

Regarding previous talk of Weber like FI throttle bodies, manifolds, fuel wetting and distance from port, I'm surprised that I have not seen angled injector bungs welded near the base of the aluminum manifolds with butterfly only style throttle bodies mounted well above. Wouldn't this reduce or eliminate most of the wall wetting?

[914werke]

[Craigers17]

I watched this video from Jake Raby over the weekend. It's always interesting listening to him talk about R&D. It seems that he and Mario from the Dub Shop have been working on their own version of a more modern Single Throttle Body EFI. Hopefully, those interested can access this link:

https://www.facebook.com/aircooledtech/vide...925350345685623

[914werke]

It seems that he and Mario from the Dub Shop have been working on their own version of a more modern Single Throttle Body EFI.

Type1

[Craigers17]

It seems that he and Mario from the Dub Shop have been working on their own version of a more modern Single Throttle Body EFI.

Type1

Pretty sure that Raby doesn’t build type 1’s anymore, but he does use upright DTM shrouds.

[JamesM]

I watched this video from Jake Raby over the weekend. It's always interesting listening to him talk about R&D. It seems that he and Mario from the Dub Shop have been working on their own version of a more modern Single Throttle Body EFI. Hopefully, those interested can access this link:

https://www.facebook.com/aircooledtech/vide...925350345685623

They aren't the only ones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Back in the day when Jake still despised Megasquirt he reached out to me and we spoke a bit on the subject. Despite bad experiences he has always been forward thinking enough to realize aftermarket injection was the way forward. Unfortunately at the time my day job prohibited me from being more involved assisting in his path. Glad to see him working with Mario though as he has delivered some awesome products for injecting our engines. Most people that spend any time playing with this stuff though quickly realize the shortcomings of ITBs so I'm really glad to see the two of them jumping on this problem.

That said, single plenum intake manifold design is a pretty complicated subject. While I don't actually know what all they have put into the project so far it appears their approach is based on improving a type 1 style injection manifold with a hyper focus on improving flow and while I am sure this will absolutely remove restrictions over the stock type 1 setup efficient plenum design involves more than just maximizing flow. Runner and plenum lengths, volume, shape, and orientation all have impact on the end result. Theory is one thing though and dyno results are another so as someone who has been playing with modern injection on 914s for the last 20 years I couldn't be more excited to see the results.


Now back to my original comment...

For a while before "officially" starting work for PMB I had been advising Eric on fuel injection matters and the ITB/single plenum problem has been something I have brought up quite often. After throwing a few ideas on the table Eric picked up the ball and got some prototype bits fabbed up. Our approach was a little different in that rather than trying to improve an old design we went with adapting a more modern one.

Been put on the back burner for a bit as I have had other work to address, but anyone that attended the last open house may have noticed a a slightly more complete version of this bolted on a motor:

[Mikey914]

Well, I'm currently working on a version of a FI system now. Just built the motor. I going to break it in on carbs while I'm building the system, but in about3 -4 months we should have as system that is ready for retail. There are a few options that I think will make it a no brainer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)