That single fan isnt going to do it.. you live in Slowdesto for christ's sake..lol

Oh.. water doesnt like to turn angles.. figure something else out.. ditch the elbows..They probably wont handle the heat anyway and melt.



B

That's his plan, If it doesn't flow enough air, then he'll cut the inner fenders.

We tried to crank it over tonight, Starter froze. We'll try again tomorrow with another starter. May have the wrong number of teath for the after market gear reduction starter. I think it came from the late model engine conversion bits we aquired.

We still have the 911 starter that should work. Still lots of little things before it's road worthy...

Dan

Oh, ya. It was Jims and more than a few others I'm sure.

We have a second fan, just won't fit on the rad. We're thinking of pushing one and pulling the other. Offset on the front and back. Anyone try that?

-uhh... duh! disregard some of this, I just realized what coffee, and you meant about offestting.. hee still, there are some clues, so I'll leave it..


If you do push-pull, you need to shroud the pull fan tightly, and the pull fan needs to have a lil more space between it, and the radiator. It needs to be completely ducted to be efficent enough to handle all that..

The turbulence created by the pushing fan can stall the air over the pulling fan, with a radiator dead between them, and without very tight duct work.

Better off with one of those ready made dual fan pulling rigs.

Great job Andrew, great to see you going on down the road towards your goal, keep up the giid work, as usual.


M

I didnt miss anything, I know he wants to vent the hood with an inverted scoop. I dont think it is going to be enough and I think it is going to flow the hot air right into the car with the top off. I guess we will see when he gets it going. Mine is still sitting here waiting for me to get time to work on it. Seems to be to many other things taking my time right now. Andrew will get his going before mine. I worked on it a little last weekend and ran into a small problem. I went to hook up the CV joints and found the engine and tranny are in there crooked. I need to shift the whole assembly over to the passenger side about an inch. Couldnt get the drivers side on. It sucks working alone.

I measured the air outlet for the hood... Its twice the size of the inlet.. (which was the ratio I was lookin for...) Plus there will be a "turbulent" from the cowel which should suck the air out quicker... Hot air over the car I dont care about... Its only summer...

Brad, its a 15in fan... the thing is MASSIVE.... It just looks small because of my huge radiator..... If I have cooling problems I'll put the other fan on it and see how that is...

Oh ya, Tell Dad about those elbows... I dont like them... but he says they'll work, What do I know anyways.... So We'll see....

What happened to your tool wench?

Andyrew,
How about a roll up on your budget?
Felix

Take those PVC pipe fittings and put them in a pot of boiling water on the stove. I bet they melt or are so flexible you can crush them.

BTDT.........

Ok, total cost of the v8 conversion was 2300.

Minus my 2.0 engine sale (800) its 1500
Minus the sale of my carbs that went with the engine (150) 1350

Minus some other stuff I sold along the way, and its about 1k....

I'll throw those fittings in the boiling water and let dad watch... lol..

Kit 1 300
Kit 2 500
Distributor 85
Radiator 50
Fuel Pump Faucet existing
Hoses and fittings 200
Headers Kit 2
Muffler Kit 2
Engine Rebuild 720
Machine work incl
Engine kit incl
Bearings (*2) 10
Paint, sand paper and Misc 60
Oil cooler 2
Remote oil filter kit 1
Overflow tank 0
Radiator Cap 2
Hood Kit 2
Fans Kit 2
Oil and filter 15
Materials for Radiator 109.95
Throwout bearing 70
Pilot bushing 40
Swap meet items
Plug wires 5
Gauges 5
Misc 10
Exhaust kit 2


Dera ya go.... a break down..

BIGKAT and Brad
Thanks for warding off a big problem. We're throwing out the plastic fittings and getting copper plumming like one of the previous kit owners was using. I would prefer stainless, but Lowes doesn't carry it

So now it's time to learn how to solder copper plumbing. (Good to 450 degrees)

In the meantime. We took a moment last night to try and fire up the beast. Long enough to find out the dist was 180 out, wasn't getting any juce, the battery was dead, exhaust had a huge leak and hi-torque starters are NOISEY. (May be because we need to rework the tranny mount bolts, too solid).

Finally, FIRE in the HOLE. (litterally when the exhaust was leaking)
Still have to rework the timing and find why the carb seems to be sucking air.
No more running until the water lines are sorted out. Soldering is a pain, anyone else have an idea how to reduce 1 1/2" hose to 1" hose?

Inch by inch... slowly It turned...

for the reducer, try Summit Racing

I found these for Datsun Z Chevy swaps
Hose adapters/reducers

If you do end up using the copper tubing, try to add a bead on the OD so that the hose is less likely to slip off...

Sounds like you guys need to enter the $2005 Challenge. Even if you don't, I'd bet GRM would like to hear from you. They love this kind of thing.

Andyrew: I bought a radiator from Renegade Hybrids and they forgot to send me a mounting kit and ducting. So I called and asked where it was. Scott told me he was shipping the ducting separately (which he did) and that they no longer hard mount their radiators. He said they had problems with the radiators getting cracked from the mounts (possibly due to flexing of the chassis?) and that they now float mounted their radiators. I'm not sure what that means but I thought I should share in case it is a concern for you.

Anyone know what they mean by "float mounting" the radiator? How would that be accomplished?

rubber isolators???

I'd mount the radiator so that you could grab it and move it about 1/4" in all directions, make sure you use a soft material that'll absorb the shock of hitting bumps and such

hmmmm....that might explain why you cannot post a pic

just kidding...the admins have a "rule"...one must post 10 times before posting pictures



by the way, welcome to the club !!!!!

My benz rad sits on rubber rings (the bottom of the rad had big pins and the side and top is literally spring clipped. Maybe this is considered float mounting. Hmmm, I got my Renegade rad last year. I better check it out...

Welcome 9one4racer,
Felix

I know Mike did a lot of custom work. I don't think you can just go and buy a set of $25 bearings and slap them in. I'm sure Mike will explain, although he doesn't really have to. I think most of us understand what went into creating the roller bearings.

Out of curiosity 9one4racer...

Did you even read this thread, Neh, did you even look at all the pics?

Its obvious that I shrowded the radiator..

oh... and dont be trying to slam down someone who's done as much work for 914's as Mike Mueller has done...

And as for the copper piping... I went with 1in id rubber lines. Copper tubing is only used for reducers and such.

I think Mr. Mueller needs an apology.

and if you think.. for one moment that im going to allow any more of this slamming on my thread...

No more talk of this. 9one4 either appologise to Mike Mueller, or dont respond at all. I will have the admins delete all these posts if something goes awry.

ps, you need 10 posts to be able to attach a picture.

geesh...someone cannot take a joke

no need to "defend" me Sammy or Mike, there will always be designers and engineers that'll make the same comments about "everything" and how they shouldn't cost that much....

amdrew, no big deal.....we'll get over this and laugh about it later on.....no need to get personal, I guess some people don't have a sense of humor.....he was trying to help, I just thought it amusing that he had to throw in his "title", like that was going to make his advise golden

he does make a good point however, on the failure potential of the solder-joints

time to move on to the next subject

Ya, When I first did some of the solders they had leaks. then I went through it again and got em good.

I still need to do a little work with my cooling system...

I have 2 overflow tanks, and no reserve... figure that one out.. lol (gotta put in a reserve tank... when it boils over (not a high enough pressure cap... I think... It boils over once the car is shut off. the engine temp is only at 220.. but the pressure increase yeilds it to spill over into my main overflow tank.. thus I loose water in my system and get air... thus I have to put more water into the system..)

andyrew,

i have a radiator/water system test kit that you can borrow, you pressurize the system with it by pumping it up....with car off......

Sounds interesting!

Currently overheating is not one of my major worries... I know I can always address that..But I am worrying about the engine not having alot of power.. and its wierd noises..

i'd drain some oil out of it and carefully examine it looking for possible signs of accelerated wear or damage.

If you are going to use copper piping, I'd suggest you use a 90 *sweep* rather than a simple 90. It has a much larger radius bend rather than the tight *L* found in common copper 90's. You may have to go to a plumbing supply house (though I've seen 1/2" at HD), but they are available and will really help to reduce pressure drop.

Shock mounting the radiator is a really good way to avoid cracking/leakage issues. For race vehicles, I have always fabricated a U shape with U channel lined with foam weather strip. Slide the radiator in, and it is completely isolated from vibration under even the most severe conditions. I have an AFCO dual pass racing radiator; on their site, they recommend this type of isolation mounting as well. I have done this on mine; as I progress, I will post some pic's in a couple of days of my setup.

I suggest you avoid using puller and pusher fans. I have no direct experience with witnessing problems with this combination, but (as was previously posted) I've read that any small difference in the balance of flow between the two can create a tremendous stall in the air flow.

Shrouding the fans really improves their effectiveness usually because they cannot cover enough of the radiator core area. An unshrouded fan will only cover the area it projects over. You can test first, and shroud as necessary. If you do build a shroud, I'd also suggest some simple flappers that remain closed when the fans are runing while the car is at slow speed or stopped, and open when airflow increases as vehilcle speed increases so as to realize a greater area of air flow. BeCool makes a nice fan and shroud assebly with flappers available from Summit, p/n BCI-75007. BTW, I bought two 12" fans from Zirgo; they have very high CFM ratings, their prices are very good, and you can buy directly from them (Oregon). http://www.zirgo.com/search.lasso?search=fan


I also stumbled arcoss this site http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/02...fan/index.shtml
I'm not sure I believe their estimated 2000CFM from a 12" fan (off a Ford Taurus), but it is an interesting alternative (two fans?).....Although, after checking into on-line junk yard pricing, seems $75 to $150 was the going price. Perhaps you'd fare better at a Pick-and-Pull.

Cheers,
Andy

Didn't you guys see this? If anything maybe 9one4racer needs to learn how to post smilies.
Felix

still comes off as an ass.

Andrew, nice work with all this!

And if he really knew what was in Mikes kits... he would'nt be making "tongue in cheek" comments. The centerless ground "race" for the bearings to ride on is MUCHO expensive.


B

Um.. Brass ?? No. WE make maybe 100$ on the front kit. The rear has less margin. WE are wide open too suggestions on how to make more money on the parts. Feel free to source everything for us. Months where spent finding/locating decent prices and parts for the kits. The rear requires quite a bit of machine work. Factor in all the time spent "hand holding" and we basically make NOTHING on them.

I thought the whole idea was to make money ? Can you let us make a buck ? I'm sure I can figure out a way to build Chrysler products cheaper.


B

apology accepted and likewise.....

hope you are sitting down...that price does not include installation

these bearings are not designed to replace the factory rubbing bushings, these are a better alternative to the hard plastic bushings that most people "upgrade" to

no brass at all, the sleeve which goes onto the a-arm is 52100 solid rod, it is bored out, hardened and centerless ground per recommendations from Timken/Torrington..sure I could have used a chromoly sleeve or something else to hold costs down, but I choose not to..I'm not forcing anyone to buy these, too expensive or not to your liking, then pass on by and buy/make something else, no big deal to me

still on the front kit:
the other sleeve which goes into the factory housing is machined from seamless tubing

brass bushings can be had for less than mine ($100 less), but I feel (and do others) that they fill a different segment (do a search for Elephant Racing) I don't talk negative about Chucks parts and I hope he does the same........

no need to remove your posts, it's not the end of the world, you failed to see the humor in my joke, I thought it was kinda funny that someone that could design an engine would have trouble posting a picture, I guess it was more of an inside joke....sorry if my humor is "different"

how about starting over with your "introduction" with a brand new post/thread and introduce yourself....the GN motor has been discussed a few times in the last few years but as far as I know, you are the first one to have done one....besides, I'd love to pick your brain on engine design being that once my shop is finished, I'm going to start building a 1/4 scale Offenhauser

9one4racer

Your a ok in my book!
I've seen muellers bearings and everything else he's made... and its alot of work.. He's a great guy,and he's helped me a lot, so I (like many others here) took offense when you cheap shoted his work. You've said what youve needed to say, and now I dont want this to go any farther. Take it privately if at all.


mike, I'll drain a little oil.. good advice.. Heck I'll just change it... ( leave the filter though..) cus Its a rebuilt engine...

all the fan talk..

I have a 16 in fan in there currently... Im sure its somewhere above 2500cfm.. If for some reason I have problems with it overheating, I will take the hood off to see if thats restricting it (doubt it..) then add the second fan in.. then if that doesnt do it, then I'll finish forming my ram air front bumper... ie fiberglass it in so there is no wishy washy air going in between the bumper and the body, so it goes through the front trunk.. If that doesnt work, I'll add some expanding foam to get rid of ALL the tiny air gaps.. AND IF THAT doesnt work, I'll change to marine exhaust hoses, and redo my whole cooling lines.

BUUUUT my problem with overheating IS NOT when its running, but when it gets shut off. When it gets shut off, the temp slowly goes up, maybe to 230 (highest i've seen it) when the car is running, it will max at about 200 so i've seen. while the radiator stays at 190 and casually drops... (I have a temp on the radiator..)



So any leads on that would be helpfull.

Dankie guys..

This is actually pretty common with all water-cooled cars. The water is no longer circulating, but the heads are still at operating temperature. The heads run considerably hotter than the coolant flowing past it, so when the water stops flowing past it, the heads will heat up the water sitting there. There's no more heat being put into the heads (indeed, the water is drawing out what heat there is), so this actually isn't a problem.

If you ran a cylinder head temp probe under a spark plug, I'd bet you'd see it running at around 250dF while driving, even if the coolant temp is steady at 200dF. Perfectly normal.

Quite awhile ago some engines relied on a convection roll being formed in the cooling system to circulate the water, either in addition to a weak pump, or in place of a pump. Thermo-siphon is the commonly seen term. Such engines often did not show much of a temperature rise after shutoff, since they weren't depending on an engine-driven water pump to circulate the water. Most engines today completely depend on the water pump being there and operating at full flow to keep the coolant moving.

Guys, I'm sure 9one4racer is good guy. He is Canadian after all. He's just from the eastern part of the country and they're not known to have much of a sense of humour.

James, thats kind of what I thought....

Currently I have to add in a resevor to my system.. because I have no "slack" of extra water.. My fill is directly in line with (the highest point on) the water lines. It is one in to the right, and its just like tacked on.
Works great, till you shut off the system and the pressure builds up and the water escapes and goes into the catch tanks, then it boils if its over 220. (which it will creap up to... after the engine is shut off.. and james, you confirm my thoughts that that is ok.)

Now.. to figure that one out.. gahh... Gona need some more fabricating... GAHHHHH!

never ending process...

Now if I can only figure out why the engine has no power...

like I posted earlier, there are other alternatives, I've lost a few sales to Chuck with his bronze bushings...some people have said cost was the driving factor, others just liked his design better and some people stick with the plastic since it's an even cheaper solution...I don't get mad or pissed off when they tell me they are buying or using something else....

I do wish I could make them less expensive, but I do this on the side, I can only afford to purchase so much stock and parts at a time. Believe it or not, there is another company selling kits pretty much just like the ones I am selling, and they cost $100 more than mine do....so if anything, I am doing a service by offering a less expensive alternative

feel free to make a better/cheaper/more thought-out alternative...who knows, maybe I'd be willing to buy a set if I feel they are better than what I currently have...to me it's all about evolution and who knows what the next hot ticket will be (air bearings )

andyrew,

it's been a while since I've played with water-cooled cars, have you driven and shut off your dads car to see what the cooling system does??? oh yea, a buddy of a buddy e-mailed me yesterday, he has a ratty 944 turbo he is looking to get about 3500 or so for, I hope to have pictures and details this weekend....supposedly runs strong, but needs cosmetics.

Heck dont worry about "negative posts"

Once you get a little more posts under your belt, and show that you actually know what your talking about then we will have no problem accepting your "negative" posts.

Just ask questions before you jump to conclusions (or say your conclusions aloud..) It saves you from getting into messes... Whenever I talk to someone with differing views, I always want to know their side of the story before I shut them down.. Sometimes they have valid info!

Mike, thats a great price.. if all the bla bla bla.. you know... You thinking of getting it? I know you know their potential...
I drive the turbo's and my moms car alot.. The only thing they do is maybe have the fan run for a little.. and the turbo recirculates the water to cool the turbo... but thats it... No boil over bla bla bla... BUT my friends 92 camero is a whole diff story....

Andrew ... is your fan set up to run even after the engine stops ???

We're manually turning the fan on/off for now. So we're running it for a short time after the engine is shut off.

9one4racer

Welcome. Don't worry about the 'stuff', your not the first. It happens here and everywhere. We welcome your opinions.


I'm curious about your setup. Do I see 2 radiators? Did you try one before and it didn't work? Which engine are you running?

I'm the Dad in the project. The one that's suppose to be experienced.

Aside from cooling, we're running into the power drag problem...

Here's what we know so far..

The problem: Under moderate to heavy throttle in 2-4 gear the car feels like there is a trailer loaded with a ton of bricks holding the car back.

Under light throttle, the car responds well.

The engine stops very quickly once the idle is turned down or timing is changed. In other words it's tight. Granted it's all new components.

Tried both carbs. Problem is similar with both. A/F is close enough to not cause this problem. 12-13 under full throttle.

Tried some different timing settings, no change.

Possible problems. (brainstorming here so nothing gets ruled out)

1) Binding in the drive axles.
2) Missmatch in the connection from SBC to Transaxle
3) Internal engine problems.
4) Secondaries not opening. (ruled out with changing carbs)
5) Plugged Cat and/or muffler
6) flapper valve on the one exhaust manifold closing somehow forcing all exhaust thru the intake and out the other exhaust.
7) Transaxle failure(dragging) under high torque
8) brakes draggin. (rolls fine so not likely)
9) squating under throttle causing something to drag (like the axle)
10) Distributor to far advanced or retarded
11) Completly mismatched engine components killing all HP.


There must be a couple more I'm missing
Be blunt. We'd just like to solve this so he can start driving the car.

We get to play with it again on Friday. So we'll have some time to think about next steps.


Dan

all this hot canadian air for nothing ...

you don't need 10 posts to attach a picture. you can do so in your first post.
there never was a limit on when you can attach pictures ...

as for your engineering *advice*, yes, you're welcome to throw ideas at us, we all do all the time.
but unless you have something better to show in your hands, don't piss on someone elses product that has proven to work very well.

i just ordered a set of muellers roller Bear-Rings and i have no problem forking out the $400 for a set.
why? because i know what my alternative would be and i have driven a few cars with them installed and i can tell the difference ...
have you?

some people,
Andy

Not accelerating under full throttle and high load is ususally fuel pressure. Check for clogged fuel filter.
Is your vacum advance hooked up to the right port on the carb? If it is hooked up to manifold vacum, not venturi vacum, you could have some goofy timing issues.

Just a couple of thoughts,
George

Good Ideas.

I'll double check the vaccum connection and it's result on the timing.

Would low fuel pressure show up on an wideband A/F gauge?
We're getting decent mixture. Seems like it would lean out if it was starving for fuel.

Levi,
I remember what you said. I'm just not ruling anything out after our rod bearing fiasco. I just haven't owned an engine this tight in well, forever..

It starts ok. Just pump the gas a couple times then when it bites, keep it running until it warms up.

The timing is definantly off. I can't get a read on the normal timing mark (can't see it against the firewall), and I'll need some instruction on how to do it properly with the Renegade damper pulley. My careful calculations and markings got us in the ballpark, but not close enough to rule out that as the problem.

We have both a holley and a Qjet. Both seem to act about the same.

Ok, let me point out that we have not given it 100% throttle yet... maybe 75%... but that SHOULD activate the secondary's...

Its got good low end low throttle tq. and it sounds good at that... now give it more throttle.. and it makes a very loud working noise...I really want to break in the rings.... but I dont want to do further damage if im causing damage....

Try this: connect a vacuum gauge, idle at 900 rpm, and turn the distributor slowly until the vacuum peaks then back it off 1-2 pounds.

Will do!

dankie

might be hard to get it to idle at 900.... Maybe with the Q jet..

lol (the cam makes this hard....)