oook.. So dad messes with the dizzy while I kept the throttle running, then we set the idle.. We'll see how that does on the vacume guage.

Went for a drive and well... sucked.
Ya, its got good power... but about 100 hp of it... (or so it feels)

Well while dad was giving it full throttle, we must have hit a bump or something.. A couple loud noises came... Not continual.. just a couple. Im guessing dad put the clutch in... So we drove it back home (all of about 100 yards) and looked at it.. We looked around, checked underneith.. I tried to point out the low clearance between the alternator belt and the shift linkage (bout 1/4 to 1/8 in...) when dad noticed something...

The trani mounts...

But I didnt even show you the mount!!

I'd love to talk! Cant say it here? Need more room? More idea's? Go ahead and shoot me a pm (either account..)

Heres the mount... I THINK I have it in backwards (I debated on that for a LONG time installing it... guess I just did it wrong.... Eh I'll figure that one out.

Andrew

hehe, ya, I cut the tip of the exhaust off... It was hitting... and it was quiet... now my quarter pannel gets warm.. lol

Dude, that aint right. It should fit perfect, that looks like its going to fall out. You need to fix that right away. Trust me, you dont want to take any chances with that one. Did you see this???

Oh, I know its not right... notice that I posted pics on it and such? lol

Ya, Im going to fix it before I drive it again.. the trani is being supported by a small jack right now just in case.

Andrew

Would it be the reason for my engine problems possibly??

You may want to take a close look at your carb gasket. It might be interfearing with the butterflys.

Also look into using a thick gasket if you not already using one. They tend to insulate the heat from cooking your carb.

Sounds like timing too.

Pat

Go to bed, I will take pictures of mine tomorrow and post them. Also, it is a very possible that it could hold you back, the trans could be binding and causing it to twist and bind which would hold it back, you are lucky you have not broken anything.

Attached are a couple of pics of how the trans. mount is supposed to look. This is a combination of the 911 sport mount, a notched washer from the stock 914 mount and Rengade's spacer.

Getting the timing right can be challanging with the v8 installed. You may have the distributor installed off a tooth or two but you should still have more power than described. With my timing set correctly, I could still rotate the distributor 3/8" in either direction without loosing the amount of power you describe (3/8" measured by marking base of dist. and having a fixed mark where it slides into intake).

I'd somehow verify the secondaries are opening with a device that indicates movement while your on the road. I don't have this device exactly figured out but had visions of a pen attached to secondary that would mark a fixed piece of paper?????? Maybe Dad could be talked into looking at the secondaries with the targa removed while your driving : )

Good luck,

John

adfd

Not the best pic of how to connect hoses to a Holley but all I have.

The three hoses connected to carb are as follows:

Large, medium and small........viewed left to right

Large goes to PCV on valve cover.

Medium is self explanatory (carb to carb connection)

Small hose is connected to vacumm advance on dist.

John

sorry.......did not attach

Dad does not want to have his head over the carb while the car is running... lol

Thanks all.. Thanks John for the pics, I'll see what I can do about the mounts. In what order did you install the mounts? Trani to adapter to body?

I'll try the holley as well with those hose attachments, I dont think we had them all like that.

Andrew

Don't think this is critical but I installed the sport mounts firmly, then installed the remaining pieces loose. With the engine beam mounting bolts loose, I positioned engine fore/aft, left right until the large bolts that go through tranny ear were lined up, ie, no binding fore/aft or side to side. Then tighten everything up. Don't be surprised if you have to make a clutch cable or shift linkage adjustment if the engine is moved fore or aft. Never had the tranny move in two years of operation using this method.

Do pay attention to where washers are installed or ommited as compared to your setup, and the size and thickness used. (there has to be a good footprint between rubber and metal for this setup to work right). Installed correctly, you will keep everything in place when you squeeze the power on.

John

I was considering using solid tranny mounts. Do you foresee any problems going this way? (Ie: cracking of chassis, etc.) Since my car will be mainly used for track events I'm not really worried about any vibration that might be transferred to the driver.

Sorry, I'm no expert on what to use for a track car. Maybe Brad will jump in here and provide some useful information.

John

Brad hasnt said anything yet... period..

I figure he's ignoring this thread


Anyways.. I fixed the mounts, and I think I got it in right... I think what happened was that we hit a bump and the trani shifted... Since I didnt have them in correctly it just moved...

Sooooo I drove it, gave it a little throttle, and WAM it seems very responsive to me! I maybe gave it 1/4 throttle... I was only going around the block so there wasnt much I could do...

Sooooo With a big thumbs up I decide to let dad drive it.. Well he waited to give it ANY gas ... So when he finally gets on it, he floors it.. Ehh.. still slow.. but wait, he's franticly reaching over and I hear a little rrRRRR as the clutch goes in and he shuts it off... "Great, Another throttle cable broke.... grrrrr" thinks I... Well the throttle cable didnt break, and but there was a washer that was holding the secondary's on the Q jet open... take it out and dad says he thinks thats it...

We checked the trani bolts (I marked em with a black marker) and there fine.

We went out again, nope, still no power... At this point, I've just about thrown a fit... I get my hopes up and WAM get shot down AGAIN!!! So dad drives it around more, longest trip... Driving around its about 185-170.. get home.. shut it off.. and in 2 mins the engine is at 230.... radiator is cool.. so keeping the fan on just doesnt make sense.. but hey, we leave the fan on anyways every time we shut the car off. So I just get even more angry... this happens EVERY TIME. 40 degree increase in temp when the car gets shut off? And I bet when If I start it it will jump RIGHT back down to 190 (like it did last night....) I need a little bigger reserve/overflow tank because when the engine shuts off, the water just expands, and the pressure builds and it just goes right out the overflow thing on the cap and fills up the tank.... I had maybe one cup of air left in that overflow tank.... I Think I need a bigger one... lol. And a higher pressure cap (what, 16-18lbs isnt enough? SHEESH)

So problems... (summary...)

No power still

battery ground cable broke on the tightening end.. need to get another one of those.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (causes many problems...

overheat 40 degree increase when engine shuts off

Me getting frustrated.. angry... tired.. lack of hope

andrew

I haven't read every single post, but, have you checked to make sure the vacum advance and centrifical (spelling) advance in the distributer is working. Cause that's what this is sounding like to me. Try another distributer.

Ok, well let me pass on some information I got from Renegade the other day when I was talking to Mike over there. I told him about the black car that Joe bought and how the temp goes up when you drop the idle down after running and then it goes back down after a minute or so and when you shut it off the temp goes up, he simply and confidently stated that there was air in the system. He said bleed it again and again till it all comes out. I hope this helps you with the over heating issue.

Theres air in the system because of my overflow tank thingy...

I'll get the air out somehow (somehow...)

Slowpoke.. Its a new (read completly new) dizzy. And I plugged the advance off.. last run.

This is a 250hp engine (350 tq).. It might make 200 hp with the advance off... but its currently about 100. That is NOT the problem.

Andrew,
An increase in temp is normal when the fluid is not flowing. When you turn the engine off the fluid stops flowing and you will get a very high reading. If you start it right back up the temps will drop. You may want to wait a few minutes before shutting the engine down if you are worried about too high temps. My experience is from a water cooled engine in my VW bus. As soon as I shut the thing off, the temps shot up. If I immediately started the engine back up the temps would drop.

-Jeff

Ya, but the water (yes, im running straight water) is poping the pressure cap and filling my overflow tank, then it boils (then spews out..). So dad says we might be running a 50% mix to try and raise the boiling point.

Levi When would be a good time to call tomorrow? We'll be workin on the car till about 4pm (I got work then..)

Will add some coolant, and water wetter tomorrow...

still doesnt help the engine problem though... lol

Any clues to sleep on?

Sometimes we just can't see the forest because all the trees get in the way...

Coolant going in tomorrow.

So, if we decide to use Water Wetter instead, how much should be used for effective cooling?

Well.... its slow.... past 1/4 throttle it just makes loud "working" noises and doesnt have much "go".....

You know... THAT engine problems...

I fixed the mounting, and the cable... cable? throttle cable oh, no thats fine.

After reading your entire post again (it's been a while), it sounds like more of a problem with the timing/distributor since you have had the same results using two different carbs. Here are a couple of things I would try.

Are you sure the distributor is installed correctly? I had a mark on harmonic balancer to know when at TDC. You'd have to pull #1 plug to verify your on compression stroke and then ensure dist. rotor is pointing at #1 on cap. A finger in the spark plug hole of #1 while someone is bumping over the engine is the easiest way of determining if your on compression stroke or not.

If this checks out good, you could make small changes to distributor position while out on the road. Just don't fully tighten distributor hold down bolt and make small changes until you see improvement. Mark dist. and intake before you start and make changes 1/8" at a time until you see improvement. Work both sides of your reference mark to make sure you try advance and retarded timing positions. I'd also double check to make sure the plug wires are installed on their right cylinders. A bad set of plug wires could also be the cause and it's not clear to me if these were new or not during your rebuild. A Camaro I once owned ran fine at idle and mid throttle but was a dog when the throttle was at 1/2 or more.......ended up being a worn set of wires.

Your cooling system issue where your temps. are OK while driving but overfilling expansion tank could be better diagnosed if you posted a pic of how this is installed. Might just be a bad radiator cap. 16 lb. is what Renegade recommends with their setup. Your not using theirs, so a change to 18 lb. or so might be worth a try. If your timing is way off, the over filling of expansion tank might just cure itself.

Did you break the cam in correctly? (2000-2500 rpm for 20 minutes the first time engine ran) A friend of mine wiped a few lobes of his cam last year during his break in and suffered from lack of power. I do not know how to check this with engine assembled. Maybe pull the valve covers and rotate engine while viewing rocker arm operation???

It was not clear in your post what fuel pump your using. Your symptoms do sound like this could also be the cause (starvation when demand is high). You should also check sump in fuel tank for build up of sludge and condition of sock/filter. Disconnecting fuel inlet at carb. and routing to some type of collection device while activating fuel pump could give you a indication if some type of restriction is present.

Good luck........I'm sure you'll get this one figured out soon.

John

This was burried quick, so I'll bring it to the top.

The Qjet is on the car now and seems ok. Full throttle gave us a good 4bb Qjet sound like it should. A/F readings were good as mentioned. Which port should the Vaccum advance be connected to? The one I picked was off the back-bottom of the carb, but caused immediate pull on the Vac advance. Possible that the idle is too high?

Redoing the trans mount seems to help. But the trans hub is lower than the wheel hub. Upon acceleration it must be dipping more expecially with 2 people in the car. Not sure how much the axles can be out of square before they start having problems.

Dan,

This is how my axles looked with car fully assembled and tires planted on ground. You may be onto something but you mentioned being able to roll the car by hand. Maybe try rolling it with 1-2 people inside.

I could shift my axles side to side at least 1/8" or more while in the air or when planted on ground.

John

We have been running water wetter for protection.
But, now will run to the store for some AntiFreeze.
That was in the plans but we wanted to work out any leaks etc.
Thanks for the reminder some things just get forgotten in the midst of all the hoopla.

Our trans sits much lower. Possibly too low.
We're going to have Andrew try without my fat butt in the car to see if it makes a difference.

(anyone have any 180 springs they want to part with? )
I know they aren't that much new, but why not ask.

BTW.
Thanks a bunch John2kx, Sammy, Levi and everyone else I forgot to mention. It helps having people to bounce ideas off when your up against the wall.

If you are sure the distributer is working perfectly, cause I've seen new parts not work right or fail. Have you checked or set the advance in the distributer? If it's a mallory it's ajustable. Then, have you checked the cam timing? Sometimes those multi position (-4, 0, +4) degree gear and spockets can get confusing, especially with all the choices. Did the cam follow the specs from the cam card? I'm thinking timing issues from what you are describing.

You can find a ported vaccum for the distributer by looking for a fiting on the carb that has no or little vaccum at idle and vaccum starting when the throttle is opened.

Sorry, can't be of more help.

Peter

The Cam went in straight up. No special degree gears.

The distributor Vacuum advance is definatly working. I'll check the mechanical advance. I'm going to see if I can find a better port to plug into. All the digrams I see for that car/carb show some additional port multiplier thingy that the distributor plugs into.

I just wonder if the port I've selected is correct, but since the idle is so high, the carb thinks we're already at part throttle.

Today we added Coolant to the mix, changed the oil and filter, cleaned up the wiring somewhat.

You need to pickup ported vacum. There should be a port that only sucks under exceleration. The SBC is prone to heating up if the timing is off. Check to see you have the correct harmonic balancer. the later balancer have a built in advance for emissions. Check to see you have the correct dizzy for the motor. I think the same deal applies with emissions stuff.

I didn't hunt through your entire post do you have pictures of your cooling system here? If so what page? I want to see all the connections and the radiator/fan system your using. I may have a few things I can contribute.

Page 5.. and http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...2&t=17368&hl=v8
that thread..

Hi Andrew,

Good thread and great job on your project.

I don't know what you ended up with on the hose connections, but, the V-8 i just bought had copper elbows and it leaked. I replaced all the hoses from front to back with marine exaust hose.

Good luck

Andyrew,



Levi is incorrect... True, water boils at 212 degrees, BUT that is at atmospheric conditions, not in a pressurized system.

The boiling point of water actually increases approximately 3-degrees for every pound of pressure.

Therefore, with a 16-lb pressure cap, the water will stay liquid until about 260 degrees (far greater than 212)... Your water should not see 260 degrees unless you really have problems.


100% water will provide BETTER cooling efficiency than a 50/50 mix, as the WATER conducts the heat better than coolant. Coolant has a higher boiling point, but water is more efficient. Unless you will exceed that boiling point (~260 degrees) the coolant ineffective.


As Sammy mentioned (page 10), you don't want to run Straight water because of corrosion reasons.

For the BEST cooling, straight water with Water wetter and/or some other additive to prevent corrosion and possibly reduce the surface tension of the water .

For a fresh motor, there is absolutely no problem running straight water for a short time period (a few weeks), as the corrosion/electrolosis effects will probably take weeks before anything happens (at least to be noticible) and months before there are problems...

I like to do this until I am sure the cooling system doesn't have leaks, without having coolant mix leaking all over everything (what a mess that is). I sometimes also pull the motor for detailing etc after an initial breakin. Straight water makes it cleaner and simpler.

Coolant/antifreeze is great for keeping the system from freezing in the winter, as well as providing those anti-corrosion agents... but it is not the best choice for cooling.

Anti-freeze/coolant is also not the best choice if you plan on any type of racing (on a track or AX coarse), because coolant is much more slippery than straight water (or even WW/water mix), and if you overheat and spill on the track, you will ruin the surface for everybody that follows...


I have actually noted average temp drops of 5-10 degrees with only the change of mixtures from 50/50 to straight water, and a few more degrees with Water Wetter added...

I personally have run straight water/Water Wetter for many years in my cars (those stored inside in the Winter) with absolutely no cooling or corrosion problems... Prior to that I also ran straight water during the summer with no noticible issues...

You also want to be sure to run a thermostat. Alot of people take these out, but they are actually better for proper cooling system efifciency.

Another thing I thought of...

175-180 is not overheating. As others here have stated, its completely normal for the water temp to rise after you shut it off... The combustion temps are above 1500 degrees, and the internal metal is also much hotter than the water. The water is around 180 because you have a constant flow of cooled water from the radiator. Once the water pump stops, the coolant can no longer flow throught theradiator to be cooled. BUT the engine is still very hot and continues to radiate that heat into the water, and the water gets hotter. Since the guage is at the engine, you notice that increase... Perfectly normal.

Is the car overheating? Or just pushing water out into the overflow?

Is it only pushing water out when its shut off, or while driving/running?

Have your tried letting it cool, emptying the overflow and driving it again, WITHOUT refilling the water??? And then driving again to see if it still continues to fill the bottle? Many people think that water filling the overflow means overheating, but thats not true, its just the extra pressure bleeding off... And it doesn't mean extra air still in the system (the cycling that renegade mention is different). When the water does begin to boil and turn to steam, it expands and therefore will need extra room (popping the cap). Also remember that while the guage reads "180", there is still variation in the temps. The "180" reading is only at the guage (it should be similar throughout the engine, but will vary.). When you have an air pocket, that is different.

There needs to be room in the system for expansion, and therefore any excess water will bleed off the first few times the temps get up. If you keep "topping off" the system, it will continue to push water out until it has room for the normal expansion. This is a common problem, people keep adding water thinking the system needs it, when the system is actually over full. Not sure on the Posche V8, but generally cars have about 1-inch of space inside the radiator between the water and the radiator cap). Since a typical car will have that extra room "above " the engine, air pockets will not affect the engine.

Do you have the proper radiator cap? Most modern cars use a different cap/system that allows the water to escape when hot, but then its supposed to draw the water back into the system as the engine cools... This cap will not work properly on an older type system...


As for the lack of power. I doubt its the carbs. Not only because you have tried several, but also because even a 2-barrel carb will provide good power. A 2-barrel might lose power at the upper RPM range (like above 5000 RPM in you case), but at lower engine speeds (even up to 5000 RPM or so), the primarys will still make as much power... The secondarys are only NEEDED when the engine actually needs more fuel...

Even a factory 2-barrel setup will still make good power up to a point, and on a smaller engine like a 350, that should be pretty high.

Too much carb opening (like a washer in the secondaries) could lead to a lack of power and driveability at lower engine speeds.

It sounds like a timing issue to me, and usually those will also incur higher engine temps when running.


With an iunknown (stock?) balancer, you need to verify the timing marks. I usually insert some sort of piston stop (large bolt, etc) into the Number 1 spark plug hole, and turn the engine BY HAND until the Number 1 piston hits the stop. Then turn the engine by hand the opposite way until the piston again hits the stop, and make a mark.

True TDC should be right between these marks. Mark the balancer accordingly. Then set the timing.

Either use the cam card specs to set the timing, or somewhere around 10 degrees BTDC. Usually factory specs are retarded for emissions purposes, and therefore don't make the best power/driveability. You can adjust the timing from there, and once you get it where you want (where it runs good), THEN use a timing light to document for future tuneups.

NoPorsche, thanks for all the info, its very helpful. As far as cooling, I think I've figured that one out.
(Side note, we flushed the system saturday and filled it back up with a mix of water and coolant, Sunday I decided to drive it to church... Well about a block away I heard clank clank clank clank, and pulled off... the line off the water pump blew off and it was dragging on the ground , although I noticed it had been leaking all the way from the house (1/2 mile away luckly) when I shut the system off, it just emptied. I think dad didnt tighten the hose up all the way when he drained it from the hose, but dont know.. I double clamped the hose, and tightened them down with a wrench. Filled it back up and it ran really nice on the way home. )
custom balancer to fit the engine in the 914.. (Renegade if you know who they are..)

Thanks, we will definately use this.
Andrew

No Porsche, eh? Let's get that fixed ASAP!

Great info. Have experienced almost all these problems with Moby. Runs poorly. Can only set timing by ear, since wrench installed 305 balancer on new 350 engine so marks are useless. Changed carbs, not the problem. Previous engine was a built 305 so dizzy curve may be wrong for this engine.
Overheats when too advanced, lost most of the coolant, replaced with water, retarded, and overheating is gone. Well I guess. Have 2 temp gauges. Electric sensor is between exhaust ports, and runs 220 there with no apparent problems. Mechanical @ radiator runs 150-160. These are hot day temps.
It may be wrong balancer creating a vibration problem. Not awful, but noticible around 2800. Changing the timing changes the vibration point by as much as 500rpm (???) but it never completely goes away. I'm taking the wrench to small claims as there were so many problems. Have been told by several experienced mechanics that engine must come out and have correct balancer and flywheel (and dizzy?) installed or rebuilding 305 may be cheaper.
Opinions?

Howard, Since I was in a rump I decided to check out another forum specific to v8's. I posted to http://www.hotrodders.com/f21
and Im getting alot of good responses.
heres my thread http://www.hotrodders.com/t49008.html

I know there more forums out there, but this one seems good.
Hope you get your claim and everything fixed!

Andrew

Andrew, thanks. Lots of good stuff there. Don't know if you followed my old thread on this, but wrench's 22 yr old son commited suicide right after he got the 305 out and tore it down. He lost it (of course) and said he would just push my car out on the street. I bought a new 350 from Mr Goodwrench, had it delivered, and his assistant installed. Has been one problem after another, but can't do more until case is heard.

Ran like a bat out of hell with the 305, but it was using 1 qt per 100 miles. Turns out it was a fairly fresh (~500 mile) rebuild but had sat for 3 years. Rings never seated, cylinders glazed, some particles got in the oil and scored bearings. It should be a fairly easy rebuild, and will probably do it once case settles.

Ya I remember reading your thread.

I get your point, you dont want to do any work to the car till the case is heard.

Yeah, No Porsche... I have never owned a Porsche, and I haven't sat in one in probably 30+ years (911 Targa? back when I was probably 5 or 6 years old)...

All my life (well, the past 22 years) I have had all Chevrolet "hot rods", both Small Block and Big Block...

My "proposed" next project (hopefully starting next year) is a "late model" Chevrolet Corvair (1965-1969) with a mid-engined V8 swap... I hope it to be very similar to the 914 V8s, performance-wise...

I will probably be using a Porsche transaxle (probably a 930 box) because they are stronger, they have better gear ratios and they will offer more leg room than the typical V8 Corvair transaxle/V8 swap... The typical V8 Corvair swap places the "transmission" between the engine and the differential, which causes the engine to be placed pretty far forward. Using the Porsche transaxle will add 8-12 inches of leg room up front...

Thats why I love to come here and get lots of good info and add my $0.02...


After hanging out here, I have contemplated a 914/ V8, but I personally am still leaning toward that "late-60's Chevy styling". Plus I like the idea of having something most don't think about... Tell the average person you have a Porsche, and they assume its fast... Tell someone you have a Corvair, and most just laugh (if they even know what it is anyway)...

I don't know, I haven't bought the project yet, so maybe I will go with the Porsche 914. There are alot more upgrades/support for the 914 than the Corvairs (like suspension and brake upgrades-there are a few), so most modifications are very "one-off". I am contemplating adapting 1984-1996 Corvette suspension and brakes.

I hope I am not black-listed now...

No Porsche I built a crown conversion in the late 70's and loved the thing.

I see a friend all the time that has a late covair conversion. He uses this for everything Road Race and is damn fast, Drag racing he runs mid 11 sec on street tires. and drives it back and fourth to work. You may even know him if you go to the covair boards.
I've got some more pictures I'll email off the board if you would like.

Bob

and one of the engine.

Had a friend that did the corvair back seat conversion some 20 years ago. I seem to remember that he sold it shortly after it was running. It scared him too much. Seems like he uses a Toronado engine and transaxle. Could just be my wild imagination.

Well tonight we (I) verifed the Timing marks. Thanks NoPorsche for the suggestion. Added another mark to the top of the transaxle site hole and the flywheel. I had it right, but didn't trust my rusty self.

We have a few more things to try. Throw the edelbrock intake and holley carb on for grins. open up the exhaust and see if it's plugged a few more goodies with the timing now that we know the mark is correct. (not necessarly in that order)

Dan