What guages are you using to monitor the battery pack?

Do you have a regenerative braking system? Are you familiar with Xstatic's 800 BatCap? I'm not sure if it would offer any weight savings, but, the product looks interesting, faster charge and discharge rate, your thoughts? Do you qualify for the federal tax credit, or is that only for buying an EV? Are there any state incentives? And, what's up with 3M? They got 60mil in grants in the '90s, and were promising delivery of EV lithium batteries by the year 2000. Also, have you been able to find any pricing on SAFT's VL 45 E module? How many would you need to replace your batteries? I wish I had gone to EVS-20 last year in Long Beach, EVS-21 is in Monaco. A little too far.

IT RUNS!!!!!!!!!!

Tons of progress today.

First the pics, then Ill answer all those questions above.

First up, same shot again but this time with the interconnects.

Amps going back in after a short spin around the block. Number on the DVM is charging volts (140.9) at the moment. Only 8 amps since it was only a short spin.

This is a shot of the alternate alternator. Basically, it converts the 120V battery pack to 12V to charge the little system battery. It's actually somewhere around 13.8V just like an alternator.

These are a couple of relays to keep the car from operating while it's on charge.

CV clearance problem has been solved temporarally. No pics of what I did. Let's just say my other hobby is woodworking.

Motor and controller. The box to the right is the controller. Essentially it's what regulates the current to the motor based on the throttle input.

In the center of the picture is the contactor. It's a big fat relay that closes when you step on the pedal. You can hear it slap from pretty far away. Also shown is the second shunt that allows one of my guages to measure the current leaving the batteries and also returning to the batteries when on charge.

This is the one item on the outside of the car that always catches the eye of someone who knows 914s.

Big Boggs, these are my gauges: Bottom one is an ammeter, middle is a voltmeter, and top is an E-meter. The E-meter is a fancy gas gauge. It tells me the amphours leaving the pack and returned to it on charge.

Well done on the plug in the sidemarker hole. Very creative.

Running around the block!

Right on Shannon! Another EV up and running.

Looks like you did a nice job of it. Congratulations!

Bob,

No I don't have regen. I'd love to add it but it is way more complicated than it seems at first blush. There has been lots of talk about it on the EVDL but for me it comes down to needing a more fancy controller and at 3 to 4 or even 5 kilobucks it's a bit out of the question for now.

BatCap.... neato! No I wasn't aware of them. I'll have to look at them a little closer. It seems to be kinda low density though... 1 lb/Ah.... one of my batteries is about 1/4th lb/Ah. Could be used as maybe a booster or something for those big amp draws... interesting! There is someone on the EVDL that put a huge array of supercaps in his car. He has lithium batteries and they don't like to put out the big amps. No one knows the cost of it though. Some guess in the $20k range.

Yes there is a Fedral credit but I don't think Kalifornia has one any more I also qualify for the "HOV" sticker. High Occupancy Vehicle. Basically means I can drive in the commuter lanes solo. It also means I don't have to pay for parking meters in downtown San Jose... oh boy!

As far as Saft goes, I haven't been able to get anything out of them. They don't want to deal with such small timers. ThunderSky on the other hand will sell to anyone. They are in China and basically will take anyone's money. Quite a few people have been buying Li-ion batteries from them. I just heard the price went up because of some new regulations. Probably from pressure from F'ing oil companies....

Great questions. It seems like you know a lot about all this electric car stuff!

Thanks Otmar. That means a lot to me coming from you! If I had the cash I'd be on one of your controllers in a heartbeat. Believe me I'm saving my pennies!

I work not very far from your place. I see on the charging sites map you're listed as a public charging station. Is that still the case? I'd love to drop by and show you the car.

Sure thing.
Come by anytime for free electrons. Lock combo is 1914. It's good to keep your cycles shallow as you break in your new batteries.
Double parking is common and I've never seen it be a problem. (since I'm almost always in the space).
I'm out Monday, but some other day I'd love to see it.
Maybe we could get some of the other Palo Alto folks together for a beer at Antonios.

Yeah, I've been doing my homework on it for quite some time. I like the BatCap idea. Because of their rapid charge and discharge capability, they wouldn't suffer the "sag" of conventional wet cells. Maybe you could incorporate them yourself. It might boost your performance and you would not have such a "yugo". I really want to build a three wheel hybrid. Honda goldwing for the rear end, steering rack from a front wheel drive car for the front. Motorcycle engine for highway speeds and charging. Two electrics up front for surface streets, two Lemco MT5115. I want to use a joystick for the two electrics, so it would drive kind of like a modern fighter jets controls. I've been looking at pultruded fiberglass for most of the body. A lot easier than layups. Lots of structural shapes and panels available. My lofty goal is to build a vehicle capable of both, 100 miles an hour, or 100 miles per gallon. Obviously, not at the same time. One nice thing, Lemco might even supply me with the motors and controller. They have programs where they sponsor prototypes. As you've said, it just takes money.

Shannon, are youusing low rolling resistance tires? If so, what are the latest tries and their specs?

Man I was thinking of asking that very question on this board or on the EVDL. For the most part tire manufacturers couldn't care less about low rolling resistance. There was a time when a few models existed but I think the SUV craze has pretty much killed any thoughts about better gas mileage. <_<

My theory.... and I could be COMPLETELY wrong on this.... is that much of the rolling resistance comes from sidewall flex. So my plan is to try and get the lowest profile I can find and pump it up as hard as it will go. Am I just completely off base?

They're moving TOWARD low rolling resistance tires. Most of the hybrid cars are now using higher pressure tires. Haven't been able to find much information from manufacturers. Higher pressure than the recomended is not advisable, too much center wear and loss of road surface contact. If you go with lower profile it will be harder, both vetically and horizontally on your suspension. I hope you've done some re-enforcement if you're carrying more weight.

I know speed rated tires are supposed to hold their shape at higher RPM's. Sooooo, might they also be able to maintain their shape under higher pressure?

Dude. You rock! Awesome install and thanks for sharing all the details of your work.

Did you figure this out all on your own, or did you follow someone's plan and advice?



Qarl

This is like reading a foriegn language! I'm kinda creative but you electric guy's are way out there! Coool!

Shannon, have you got any response about the low rolling resistance tires on your EV web?

I am a former Physics teacher and a life time geek, so this type of info gathering, for some sick reason, gives me wood.

Hope all is going well with the battery break-in.

Ooops. I haven't been following my OWN thread! Ok, lets see:

Thanks Qarl. It was a team effort. 80% of the work was done by Electro Automotive. They have a kit for 914 conversion. I wasn't happy with some of the choices of parts so I "upgraded" the motor, controller, charger, etc. I also changed the mounting of some of the battery racks as well as added a guage and improved the wiring.

Rick: Thanks for the compliment. Seriously - the Alien is waaaayyyy more impressive.

Boggs: Still trying to get responses that make sense. You know how it is, everybody is an 'expert' I've gotten a lot of soapbox opinions but no one has been able to give me the physics of it. I'm with you. This kind of stuff gives me wood. I have a feeling that a stiff (did I just say 'wood' and 'stiff' in the same paragraph?) sidewall will make things better. I have no proof though. Rolling resistance is surely from flexing of the tire. The fibers move by each other and cause loss of energy. No doubt about that. But is it the fibers in the sidewall or the tread? both? If it is both then what is the distibution? Pumping it up rock hard (there I go again!) I know will keep flexing to a minimum. But as Bob said earlier that this might cause weird tread wear. Although I believe if I stay within the rating of the tire I should be ok. Lots of questions and no answers yet.

By the way a low rolling resistance tire isn't just good for me. It should dramatically improve things for you gas folk too!

Oh yeah, and the break in is going great! I'm having some 'fuel gauge' problems but other than that it feels about right.

Skinnier is better on the tires, no?

Tires can be stock size, higher pressure, special construction.

What I meant was: Skinnier tires would be an easy way to reduce rolling resistance. i.e. buying 165s instead of 205s.

Area of footprint does make a difference. Higher pressure reduces footprint. I think I'd go with 195 as a compromise. With 165 you might not have enough rubber on the road.

I've had 165s, it's no that big of a deal unless your "performance" driving.

LRR tires are a subject which is hard to research. Manufacturers rarely have data. But the LRR tires really make a big difference.

From what I hear it's the hysteresis of the sidewall and tread that give the efficiency, that plus less flexing that comes from high pressure. Bald tires roll better than now ones to some extent.
It took adding Silca to the rubber to get LRR without sacrificing wet traction.

I often run 10 psi over the sidewall max. The ride is harsh, but it sure rolls well. I've never been able to wear any radial in the center before the edges were toast, especially on the narrow ones like on my Insight. The insight gains 5 MPG from that extra 10 psi. I also run most of my tires way above 50% of the rated load (but never over the rated load).

Check out This PDF which I found on the web. Tells a bit about it.

hth,

Shannon, if you don't mind saying, how did all of the costs of conversion breakdown? Kit, batteries, tax breaks, extras....?

Lets see.... (first make sure the wife isn't looking over my shoulder....)

$1k for the car
$8k for the kit
$1k for batteries
$2k in things to bring the car up to snuff (brake upgrades, bushings, seals, etc....)
$1.8k for what I thought was a rebuilt transmission
$4k to rebuild the fucking thing.... <_<
____________
$17.8kilobucks total

Things to do:

Needs some rustoration -----> $2-4k ish (Mark!)
Needs paint --------------------> $????
Needs interior restoration --> $2k (Mr. Evil!)

Poof! Did you speak of the devil? Here I am, send me your interior.

I need to pull my dash and have some evil things done to it.

Just so you guys know, I have been learning a lot lately about this upholstery biz. I just had my first dissatisfied customer. He was by no means wrong, I just needed to communicate better about what I can do with what. I will be fixing that problem and the customer is a great guy so all is going to be well, but here are the things that I learned and would like to pass onto yall.
1. If your dash core is cracked taht is no problem, but if it is eggshelled badly (brittle original covering that flakes off easy) it would probably be best for you to find a core that is not brittle. (always contact me about my abilities, now that I know their limits )
2. These are vinyle covered dashes so they will not feel like the original plastic(?) coating and thus, will be different.

Everyone of my customers has been thrilled, even this latest one, but I am a perfectionist and wont settle for less than complete satisfaction. I'll be posting this stuff on my thread, too.

The most important thing to take with you out of this is that I work better with a solid core. I can bring a 1 to a 7 on a scale of 1-10, but you must ask yourself if you would be happy with a 7. So that means that I can bring a 5 to a 10, though I hope that I didn't scare you away, but I would rather have no customers thatn unhappy ones or to be unhappy myself. I look forward to the opportunity to work on your stuff.

Alright, enough of the serious stuff. I got a 916 replica headliner to pick up

Consequently, seats and back pads can be in drastically worse shape and be totaly brought back to life. All I need is for the skeleton to be intact.

i

i was mikes first customer. and he does good work

Thanks Aaron, you and Twystd1 are among my biggest and happiest customers. Man, your seats were in bad shape I guess in some cases you can pollish a turd.

This may be a stupid question, but why don't EV's use solar panels? I would think that it could extend the distance another 10% or so.

Then you could be charging in the mall parking lot or...

Not a stupid question, but a very common one. The dream would be to have a car that could recharge by itself sitting in a parking lot, but even if solar cells were 100% efficient the light energy that falls on the area of a car in one day is just not enought energy. An option that some have come up with is to have the building they park near covered with solar pannels that they can plug into while they are working.

I agree. Not a dumb question at all. Big Boggs is right. There just isn't enough sunlight per square foot to get the job done. HOWEVER, if we all had solar cells on our homes.... then you'd be talkin!!!!! Otmar does exactly that and is able to supply enough juice for his recharging station.

Here is a fun thing to do if you are a really weird person like me. Next time you're out and about try hunting for standard 120V outlets. You will be amazed. I can recharge at any 120V outlet. I've found that EVERY 7-eleven has an outlet outside. Most supermarkets have at least one (probably for vending machines or the old horse/car rides they used to have.) Motels and hotels all have them (probably for RVs and such.) ALL apartment complexes have them. etc etc etc. I would bet that everywhere I go I'm within 1000 to 2000 feet of a "recharging station."


By the way, the solar panel question is the number two question I get EVERY time I go out. What is the number one question?

"Have you thought about putting a generator on one of the wheels? I bet that would increase your range by 10% or so..."

It's not a dumb question but it does explain why there are so many people that truely believe in UFOs, perpetual motion machines, and zero-point energy. It takes some high school physics to understand why it will make things worse instead of better but it seems NO ONE I've met yet gets it.

Shannon,
Here's a car you may want when you win the Lotto...
Chrysler Crossfire electric: 6 speed allowing speeds over 90MPH, 100 mile range, 168 volt - 25 kw. It was shown at the SEMA in LV. Their website is www.whistlerinvestments.com. I wonder what they did with the Benz engine...
Felix

batteries...

You gotta love their dash gauges!!!!!!



Looks like a super nice conversion otherwise. I'll have to read up on the details. Their website seems to be down at the moment.

Shannon,
no price so didn't ask...
I'll scan the brochure later, I'm in the middle of cleaning out my garage (all right so I came in for a break). They also have a Mini cooper, and PT Cruiser...
Felix

Whistler Investments

You know,
the EV industry brings out all types.

Read This before you open your wallet.

What an asshole!


M

Um... Isn't that exactly like going around siphoning gas? If you don't pay the bill and don't have permission it's stealing.



The fact that no one gets it is confirmation of my greatest fears. Scary, isn't it?

-Ben M.

Permission is the key. I hope I didn't give the impression I suit up in some kind of ninja outfit and run a quarter mile long extension cord!

It's great advertisement for the cause. Most people are quite excited to help out and learn about electric cars at the same time. The cost is a joke.

Yep, solar cells would work, if you only drove it once a week. Large panels and a charging/storage station at home make more sense. They're much more efficient when they're angled correctly to the sun. You could add a small gas powered generator, but it would not keep up with the draw. It would replace some battery weight and provide an additional charging source though. I can't wait 'til we can all convert our cars to hydrogen. It's a great way to store energy. Simple, relatively low cost for conversion. You can use wind, solar, geo-thermal, or any source you care to name, to make electricity and produce hydrogen from plain old water. Burn it, and it turns back into plain old water. There's even a, very safe, solid storage system available. The Governator has the right idea. He had his Hummer converted. Now all we need is distribution (pumps at the gas stations). Screw foreign oil!