This is what I know about installing the Engman stiffner kit.... ZERO. OK, I lied. I know one thing; when done wrong you end up with body shrinkage. That and I've read that the car should be supported on all 4 jack points when the work is done. That's all I know so I ask Scotty (or someone with experience in doing this correctly), are any of those going on soon? I'm looking for some tips & pic's of install. Specifically shrinkage. And before Dave chimes in, I'm talking about the shrinkage that occurs as a result of welding not cold water. Is it avoidable if I don't get the piece too hot to the touch? Is there a sequence (as in torquing a head) that the spot welds are done? What are the preferred methods of bracing and where, e.g. body and/or door bracing. Best to do on while jigged or rolling? TIA,.

And it would be great to know if waiting between weld sequences is helpful. Does it help if you do a section, wait a day or two, do another...?

i did mine with all 4 wheels on the ground. i used tek screws to hold the kit in place. i took my time welding. i did 3 or 4 welds on say the drivers side. the welds were far apart. then three or four on passenger side far apart. then the rear. take your time and move slowly.

I did mine with the car on the ground. I removed both doors and used 1 inch square tubing to make a support that bolted to the top door hinge and the striker plate to prevent the door spacing from changing. It might help to have compressed air handy to cool the welds as you go along. I also drilled all the holes to 5/8ths inch to make a better-stronger weld (see below). After reviewing my pics, I see that I actually had the car on my lift which means it was sitting on the donuts.

I'll be doing 2 in the not to distant future ( hopefully by the end of the month
) and can do a write up at that time, but basically I recommend bracing the floor of the car not the suspension. By bracing the suspension you are putting all of the weight on the front and rear and nothing in the center, so if there is any warping, you have ensured that the roof will close in. By using jackstands and some 4x4 running the length of the longs, you are stabilizing the center of the car. Yes there is a chance of the car " opening " up from the suspensions weight hanging, but IMHO this is far less likely to be an issue as the other way around. Either leave the doors on while you weld the vertical walls, or brace the jambs as I and others have shown when doing hell hole repairs


probably the biggest thing is to TAKE YOUR TIME, and space the welds out. Do not start in one spot and work your way around. Instead do 2-3 welds in the center of one panel. Move to the other side of the car and do 2-3 welds, then move to the back panel and do 2-3 weld. GO back to the first and do 2-3 at the opposite end. This keeps the heat in any given area to a minimum.

Use .023 wire. This requires less heat and will give you every bit as solid of a weld as a heavier wire will.

Preferably leave the doors on and the brace in such a way that you can shut the doors periodically to check the gpas. This way you will see any chnage before it is too late.
I also like to start in the center of the panel so I can make any adjustments in the fit as I work

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=14508


Had all four wheels on the ground.
No shrinkage or bracing.


KT

[quote name='scotty b' date='Jan 7 2013, 11:30 AM' post='1798206']
"I'll be doing 2 in the not to distant future ( hopefully by the end of the month and can do a write up at that time "
That would be stellar Scotty. I went thru 6 pages of your topics and found where this was touched upon but didn't find any details: I have prep work to keep me busy until you post up.

"Either leave the doors on while you weld the vertical walls, or brace the jambs as I and others have shown when doing hell hole repairs"
Bracing has got to be the correct answer.


probably the biggest thing is to TAKE YOUR TIME, and space the welds out. Do not start in one spot and work your way around. Instead do 2-3 welds in the center of one panel. Move to the other side of the car and do 2-3 welds, then move to the back panel and do 2-3 weld. GO back to the first and do 2-3 at the opposite end. This keeps the heat in any given area to a minimum.

So a little like torque sequencing a head, no?

Use .023 wire. This requires less heat and will give you every bit as solid of a weld as a heavier wire will.

Check

Preferably leave the doors on and the brace in such a way that you can shut the doors periodically to check the gaps. This way you will see any change before it is too late.

This in itself is worth waiting for your writeup. Trying to think what that brace would look like.

I also like to start in the center of the panel so I can make any adjustments in the fit as I work

OK, this part needs splaining to me. By adjustments in the fit do you mean how well the 2 pieces mate or whats happening in the shrinkage dep't?


[quote name='Trekkor' date='Jan 7 2013, 11:35 AM' post='1798207']
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=14508


Had all four wheels on the ground.
No shrinkage or bracing.

Now you see; yet another successful approach though contradicting common sense. I see your in CA also Trekk. Could it be our chassis are beefier because we have less rust?

KT

Another thing that I would like to see addressed is what to do if you begin to notice small warp-age occurring. When and how to correct, if you will. Or am I totally overboard on this and have no worries if I follow ScottyB's tutelage.

I will also be doing this on my car this winter. I will do a detailed thread on it as well.

oh lord........

[quote name='76-914' date='Jan 7 2013, 03:11 PM' post='1798330']
[quote name='scotty b' date='Jan 7 2013, 11:30 AM' post='1798206']
"I'll be doing 2 in the not to distant future ( hopefully by the end of the month and can do a write up at that time "
That would be stellar Scotty. I went thru 6 pages of your topics and found where this was touched upon but didn't find any details: I have prep work to keep me busy until you post up.

"Either leave the doors on while you weld the vertical walls, or brace the jambs as I and others have shown when doing hell hole repairs"
Bracing has got to be the correct answer.


probably the biggest thing is to TAKE YOUR TIME, and space the welds out. Do not start in one spot and work your way around. Instead do 2-3 welds in the center of one panel. Move to the other side of the car and do 2-3 welds, then move to the back panel and do 2-3 weld. GO back to the first and do 2-3 at the opposite end. This keeps the heat in any given area to a minimum.

So a little like torque sequencing a head, no?

Use .023 wire. This requires less heat and will give you every bit as solid of a weld as a heavier wire will.

Check

Preferably leave the doors on and the brace in such a way that you can shut the doors periodically to check the gaps. This way you will see any change before it is too late.

This in itself is worth waiting for your writeup. Trying to think what that brace would look like.

I also like to start in the center of the panel so I can make any adjustments in the fit as I work

OK, this part needs splaining to me. By adjustments in the fit do you mean how well the 2 pieces mate or whats happening in the shrinkage dep't?


[quote name='Trekkor' date='Jan 7 2013, 11:35 AM' post='1798207']
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=14508


Had all four wheels on the ground.
No shrinkage or bracing.

Now you see; yet another successful approach though contradicting common sense. I see your in CA also Trekk. Could it be our chassis are beefier because we have less rust?

KT

Another thing that I would like to see addressed is what to do if you begin to notice small warp-age occurring. When and how to correct, if you will. Or am I totally overboard on this and have no worries if I follow ScottyB's tutelage.

[/quote]
By adjustments to the fit, I think he means fitting the stiffener kit tight to the frame so it can be welded properly. I had to wedge a piece of steel tubing against the opposite long. to get the stiffener kit steel to lay flush against the long. A few times I had to resort to a BFH. It took me awhile to learn that fit-up is one of the most important parts of getting a decent weld. And I'm a slow learner. I'm pretty sure Scotty might know what he's doing. Following his advice and ignoring mine, might also be good advice.

You'll need to get the pieces tight against the long to get a good fit and weld. And like Elliot siad, keep a BFH and some lengths of 2x4 nearby

I would be tickled if my car were to be the one Scotty did the install on and photographed for all to see. Just not sure at what point the Engman kit goes on. My chassis should be getting blasted by the end of the month. And....oh yeah..... I still need to find the kit for my car!

here is the kit that is currently available.

pm maddog - he'll reply.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=104453

jim

See my comments in THIS THREAD

As stated there, the kit fits a little "too good" and some hole enlarging and grinding is necessary to get the kit to fit without gaps. "Close enough" is not good enough, it needs to fit perfect and sealer, bumps, slag, paint, etc need to be removed so that when everything is gently clamped up it fits tight with no gaps and without force. If it has to be forced, keep at it.....

Large C clamps work great and wedging a 2x4 across helps hold things in place.

My doors fit the same after welding the kit in.

Good luck!
Click to view attachment

All GREAT info guys. I missed that build PRS and did a search using Engman stiffner kit. Key word searches are a stumbling block for me. I received my kit today, pulled the drive train Saturday (90 hr engine is going to it's new owner this Saturday), my wife and her sister are going on vacation for 15 days. I feel a Porsche porn attack coming. Garage to myself, no interruptions when working, I won't shave on Saturday, farting will be at will, and the Porsche will be my mistress. Back to reality.....I can see the prep that needs to happen so I need to get busy stripping and cleaning.

hopefully i will be seeing the debauchery in person this weekend...

jack stands on donuts, alternated welding areas, tack welded first then went back to fill the holes, grinded and seam sealed with Wurth

Nice!Its crazy.I had the distinct feeling I was ruining my car while welding all this stuff in.It seems so.....Permanent!lol!
Despite my paranoia,it really stiffened up the chassis,zero flex,better handling.
Worth it!
Edit!:And zero issues.See below for correct procedure!;)

Kent: I did this to Carerror and the thread is in NARP. I shimed the car up level and did 3 spots at a time and moved to another spot checking the longs all the time. Do not seam weld anything. Just keep moving your location across the car. Like catycorner. Weld some here then weld some there. I have the door brace if you need it.

Did the Engman kit on my 75 GT clone it was fairly easy. As Scotty and others have suggested you need to screw/clamp the pieces as tight to the metal as you can. I used .023 wire with gas when I did mine. Car was on jackstands ( imagine that ) with the doors on. I started in the middle of each piece and worked my way out. A BFH helps " massage " the metal when needed. A few welds on drivers side then go to passenger side then on to the back panel. Stop every once in a while for an adult beverage and enjoy the work you are doing. Take your time and open/close the doors every once in a while to make sure things have not moved. My doors open/close just fine and the gaps are even/straight. In my opinion it's more of a pain in the ass to grind the welds after you are done vs. the actual welding. Also one thing I did is my existing panels had been primed and painted. I placed the Engman panels in place and used a pencil to mark each hole onto the paint. I then ground each small circle to bare metal to make sure I was welding on metal rather than paint. This is a great chassis improvement for not too much money or effort. Now get welding

My bad. I finished this about 3 weeks ago but I posted it in my build thread http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=201776&hl= . I ended up doing it just like Joe S did. Confused minds think alike . Once again, something I doubt I would have tackled w/o all the help and support available here.

Ok, so another first timer looking to weld on this kit. Plan on putting 2x4's under the longs and supporting them with jackstands per Scotty's rec. I get the sequence of welds, and the need to let welds cool.

Question 1)-
I have read on the lincoln welding site that using a larger electrode reduces distortion- The reasoning being the larger electrode fills the area quicker. Less arc time = less heat.

"Use as few weld passes as possible
Fewer passes with large electrodes, Fig. 3-7(d), are preferable to a greater number of passes with small electrodes when transverse distortion could be a problem. "

So this is an opposing view to Scotty stating to use .023 wire? However Scotty has repeatable results with no distortion? What is the proper wire size? The reason I ask is I purchased a Miller 211 which is set up for .030, don't have a .023 liner at the moment.

Question 2)
Elliot and Sean both have suggested to increase the hole size on the Engman kit to add strength. However there appears to be a trade off. That is- the potential for additional distortion due to more weld material in each hole. I would have thought that Mark Bland being an Engineer would have designed in the proper size. He seemed to really pay attention to the details and had refined his kits over the years. If he thought it was advantageous then why didn't he simply make the holes larger?
Leave the holes "as-is" or widen?

Finally, Question 3)
I tend to rush things. Want to make sure I dont weld too quickly. Could use a ballpark figure on the kit install. Without cooling with compressed air, is it a two hour job, 8 hour job, two day job?

Lincoln distortion thread.

Welding Distortion

Also does it matter if the engine is in or out of the car?

I did mine with the car on jack stands, with the doors off, and the engine in.

My longs were very solid to begin with, so if you're sagging, maybe brace the center if the longs before you start welding.

FWIW, 2days. I was very intimidated and just beginning w/MIG so I took my time letting the welds cool. In that I am a novice I should not comment too much but......... I preferred the .030". Seemed like I spent less time per weld than with .023". JMHO. FWIW, if you carefully check your door gaps frequently you "will" see that they do shrink but very little. I'd have to look back in my build thread to see how much but it's not much. As soon as I was able to measure the shrinkage I stopped and made an UN-educated guesstimate of how much it would end up being and kept on working. Grinding is a pain for the less gifted of us welders. Wear an aspirator. Remember that grinding produces heat also.

Cool thanks. My longs are perfect luckily, no rust at all. Might wait til I do the re-spray to install these.

engman did increase the hole siz. maddog has not (based on only 1 MD I saw)

I have the last iteration of his kit. Great answer thanks.

I consider myself "in the know" and never used any of these scab plate bandaids....in the world of 914 chassis stiffness they are like bringing a knife to a gun fight.....but if you need ballast.......

So what would you suggest for people that want a stiffer chassis, but don't want roll-bar style cages installed in their street cars?

JP bring us up to speed,,,,, I'm ready to burn some metal

You do need a cage but not one with a halo. Sorry, there ain't no other way that I'm aware of. One needs a bridge running between the shock towers. Much of it can run below the door tops but the roll bar is needed. The weakest points of the 914 chassis are right at the fronts & backs of the door openings.....no matter what BS you've read. Don't like the cage? YOU figure out another way.

Lotta folks "Want" do do such & such with doing the necessary steps......" I want to put in a efficient oil cooler but not cut any holes in my pride & joy". "I want big tires without adding flares"......ad nausem....

So can I use .030 wire or not JP ?

Sorry I asked .... other than that how was play Mrs. Lincon

this cranky old fart has a point if you have a perfect absolutely rust free tub...

but if your longs are not perfect and might have some "surface" rust inside the longs then to restore some of the rigidity the engman kit would be beneficial.

to really get the tub rigid, you would have to tie the front and rear bulkheads together across the door openings..... no other way to get there.

I installed an Engman kit and it stiffened things up just great. Of course, I won't do any racing, so I won't need to wear a helmet, which is what you should do if you have a cage in your car. A roll cage is the best thing to do if you want to really stiffen up the car but is not the best situation on the street. I know what I'm talking about because I know lots of people who are in the know.

each owner uses his car in a different way. each set up is also different,. a cage is the wrong answer for a daily driver. the right answer is defined by usage and set up. a cage is much heavier than well placed scab plates. only a track rat enjoys climbing out of a 914 with a cage. ...a midget track rat.