Ok, I've seen some back and forth on this and it seemed that you could get them on, but some suggested you would not really get a benefit over 195's on such a narrow rim.
My rims are the factory sport steel rims.

If the consensus here is that they
1) will fit in the fender well without any real rolling of the fender (I don't mind a gently pull)
2) will be better than 195's then that is the way I'll go

Next SCCNH event isn't until 6/2 so I have some time to find the money....

I wouldn't waste the money on 195s. 205s will most certainly be better even on a 5.5 rim. I just gave a halfway used set of 205/50/15 RA1s to a buddy and mounted them on 5.5 fuchs for him. Yeah they're pinched a little but he still has more footprint than a 195 would. Besides you will probably realize that you are going to run a little less air pressure with the 205s than the 195s.

Also the Rival lists the recommended rim sizes as 5.5-7.5.


http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...R&tab=Specs

Actually every 205 I've checked also lists 5.5 as compatible.

I have been reading good things about this tire and the price is better then some of the other tires. For some reason most of the 205's are cheaper than the 195's too!

better then an E tickit ride at Disney land ..right on


save your money and just drive ..your already too serious.and your still only useing 1/3 the cars potental

Have fun

hoozier autox tires or khumos work in your specific class?
I have both, I can mount them on some old rivieras and you can run them to the cord....

These are the best type of autox tire, but I am not sure about the rating numbers you are using....
They are street legal DOT approved tires.
They have no tread really...
205/50/15
Fit on mine....but every car is different.


Up to you.

rich

Hi Rich, thanks that is very generous of you!
The Novice class requires street tires with a UTQG of 140.
It sounds like you have R spec DOT tires.
If I end up holding off on new tires I might take you up on it just to see what they do!

I think they are that.
I dont know what UTQG 140 means...

These are as sticky as the class allowed for "DOT Legal" tires.

They are certainly dedicated autox tires.
Old, but still do the job way better than your street tires.

We can talk, but running street tires can be more educational for you...and alot more fun.
Autox tires help find all the weaknesses of a chassis pretty fast.
They rip suspension points, makes you buy new shocks, sway bars etc etc....

For street tires and speeding up...you need to drive the car totally reverse of any car you think.
When the ass starts to let go, floor it.

Remember that when you do a slalom, everything is done in threes.
So, come in hot, do three cones....SLAM on the brakes when you are straight (its less than a second) then SLAM the gas pedal.

This resets the suspension and dums the weight back to the rear tires for the next three cones.

Its wierd, but it works very well.
Otherwise you are going to slow into the turns, OR, you start loosing it at the fourth turn.

Rich

Very interesting driving tips Rich! I'll give it a try

you will never do a burn out or powerslide with a stock 914.
You will however reset the suspension, which most other cars cannot do.

Again...it goes totally against your gut and totally against how you learned to drive, but with THIS car, it works like magic.

By the fourth cone, your back end is up in the air when you turn and all the weight is on the front outside tire.
You touch the brakes, you spin.
If you come off that third cone, just at the transition point, instead of turning, hold the wheel straight, brake hard, hit gas, turn hard.

it takes practice...but it works very well for any turn in a 914.

rich
rich

I've chirped the tires and slid while powered - doesn't that count



The club doesn't always set up such a long flush (6 cones) as seen in the videos (I can't find what they call it in AX, "flush" is a term we used ski racing to refer to gates in a straight line).

I'll give it a try next time they do!

I know I am not using the brakes as effectively as I might anywhere on the course....

its similar no matter what the situation, so slalom, chicago box, long slaloms etc....its all in threes.
By the third turn if you are no feeling tha ass pucker, you are going to slow. once you get there, reset.
and like I said, its wierd.

If you dont spin the car, you are not trying hard enough.

Once you learn how to reset the suspension, you drive much faster.
it makes you drive the car right up to the limit, then reset it.

Its tricky, but you can feel it when its the right time to hit the brakes...and its not a long period of time, just while you are straight with no g-force on you going sideways....that little moment...SLAM the brakes, then hit the gas.

Like most said here, it takes seats time to learn it.
Are there any other 914 cars there?
If not, I strongly suggest you attend a PCA autox, and hitch a ride in a 914 that the driver is very good.
One ride and I shaved about 3 seconds off my next set of runs.

I got hooked on autox years ago, ended up being the autox chair running the events etc...

I would suggest you plan your upgrades.
leave the front end alone
max of 140 springs in the rear.
keep the car fluid and springy, it turns in faster.
Dont set it up for the track (super stiff) cause that is a totally different problem.

Get your brakes working awesome, they are a key tool in autox.

Then, once you are looking for less than 1-2 seconds, get tires.
Not till then.
You will learn a whole lot more about weight and balance with the street tires....the amplify the issues.

Get good with street tires, then you will be awesome with slicks.

rich

Its just something you need to experience once, then you will have alot more confidence in what these little cars can really do.
Rich

I'm the only 914 in SCCNH which is kinda fun - everybody loves my car and its the fastest 914 there!

I would like to go to a PCA event and will keep an eye on their schedule for an event I can make it to.

I don't have the money right now for tires so it is somewhat moot, but in the novice class I am only 1-2 seconds from being in 1st place so tires are on the short list!

Keep in mind these will still be street tires as that is all that is allowed in class.
R spec DOT tires are not allowed, but "high performance summer tires" as tirerack catagorizes them have way more grip than the "high performance all season tires" I have on there now.

My brakes work well, but I have no idea what pads are in there as they came with the car.

I will wait until after tires to go to 140 lb. springs.

As I mentioned I am having fun, but I have more fun when I can actually compete.
The other drivers in class are novices too, but to a one they are on the stickiest tires allowed and I'm not (and am still coming in 3rd)....

When they post the complete results I will take a look at the PAX time and see how I compare to the stock performance group I would be competing in if it weren't for the novice group. This might give you guys a better picture of where I am actually at.

I try one last time, after that i shut up.


You think your car is holding you back and i think you are dead wrong.
It's a common beginners mistake and we all fell for it in one way or the other.
A experienced driver could hop in your car the way it is right now, crappy tires and all and run circles around the other guys in your class that run "sticky" tires.

It's not your car that is holding you back, it's you holding your car back.

Get over your pride and ask for a few instructors to drive with you.
Let them give you pointers on how to drive the car faster. Learning to control momentum is a beautiful thing.

The sooner you understand that, the sooner you will be competitive.

Great advice Andy.

Don't make me ... I said i was going to shut up ...

Hi Andy (and Randal), promises, promises!
Only kidding, I am listening and agree with almost everything you are saying!
I am sure my responses are being take way too seriously (happens on forums all the time), so please recognize that I am having a discussion, am playing devils advocate at times, am having some fun and have my own point of view!



While I am a beginner without a lot of seat time in any particular form of racing, and please do not take this as me thinking I am a great driver - I am posting this so that you can know almost as much about me as you seem to already think you do, I have driven:

Several all night SCCA road rallies

A few AX events in the past

A fair amount of laps in a kart. it was my younger brothers but I spent some good seat time in it. He beat Scott Sharp and Randy Lajoie regularily.

An outlaw mini-sprint on dirt - I came in 3rd I 1st time driving it during time trials on a 1/4 mile dirt track. My older brother won 3 championships with it.

A paved circle track winged midget that exceeds 3G's of cornering (at least when my brother drove it) and had a 250+ hp autocraft motor in a 900 lb. car

A legend circle track car where I went fast enough my 1st time in the car to qualify mid pack (if I were to buy my own and race that is)

Did laps in a Ferarri 308 GTB at Lime Rock

I drag race my motorcycle - it is a slow one 11.66 @ 114 mph. 0 - 60 in 3.5 seconds.

I will ride my brother's 8 second drag bike this summer.

I have a single and multi-engine commercial instrument pilots license.

I grew up on dirt bikes and boats (I have a 16' 71 Glastron that does about 55 mph)

My point here is that I am not a great driver as I was off learning how to fly when my brothers were doing all the real racing, but I'm no hack either - I do have skills.
I'm new to AX but I learn quickly and recognize that I need more seat time and sure some instruction as well.
I know this sounds like I am blaming the car, what I am saying is that I know where my skill level is and I recognize what the skill level of those running in my class.
The guy running 1st can definitely drive AX better than me at this time.
The kid in second does not drive better than me.

Yes, my car has more to give then I am getting out of it, even with the current tires, but it isn't putting me on an even playing field either. Yes, one you of guys with a lot of 914 AX experience could run circles around the other rookies, but you aren't a novice, nor are you competing in a novice class.


It is not a pride issue.
I have already ridden in some of their cars to see how they get it done and have no issues with taking one for a ride in my car. Pride hasn't stopped me, making great improvements on my own has, but only temporarily.
Now that I have a little seat time I will take an instructor out my next opportunity.



How is 3rd place not competitive? Why are you so set against me competing on a level playing field with the rest of the cars in my class?
What class do you run in? What tires do you run? Can you win your class with all season radials? If not that must mean you need to learn to drive it right?

I believe my PAX time would put me at least mid pack in a non-novice class (I'll confirm or eat crow when able).

We are all rookies, we are all getting better each time on the track which makes it hard to catch the next guy, but I am reeling in 2nd place, on my own despite the all season tires.

At least Rich understands me (and knows me personally).....

Sorry to post again so soon, but thought an analogy might better explain my position.

My brothers and I were decent ski racers back in the day and at 53 I can still put it to my 20something kids and the younger guys here at work.

If you were new to ski racing the best thing you can do is take as many runs down the course as you can, watch the fast guys and ask for help.
Sound familiar?

Any pair of skis could be used to learn how to ski race.
Sound familiar?

If you were to come to me and say “Scott, the local ski club has a new racing class for beginners and I think I am good enough to win the beginners championship”, I would not tell you to try and do it on the old 195cm straight skis you bought at the ski swap. Even though the group you will race against are beginners too, you will not (likely) be able to win on old straight skis when they are on new shaped skis. The advantages are just too much to overcome.

Some of you guys want me to stay on old straight skis and I don’t get it…..

I'd be happy to loan you a set of Fuchs with used Yoko AVS Intermediates but you have to come get them from the car they're holding off the floor in my garage.

Just remember that even street tires degrade with time. You're doing really well right now. Is the money to buy new tires now and then another set for next year? If not, then you have to decide if it better to beat the guys now as a novice or wait until next year and beat that Lotus. If you buy the tires now, they may have degraded too much for next year. hehehe welcome to AX!

I thought of that Bill - I might even want to move up to a class allowing R spec!
But that is racing isn't it?
Next year I can hope that my Jeep and my motorcycle don't both need tires again like they do this year!

That sounds great Chris!
I'll have to look those up to see if they are legal (or maybe you know the utqg?).

I even have a set of steel rims with 165's on them that can hold the car up in place of the Fuchs (Shhhh - Andy might want me to put them on the car so I can learn to drive even better from last place )

I'll have to look at the tires to be sure but they have a fairly low treadwear number that I'm pretty sure is at least 140.
IIRC the size is 195/60.

From what I can find online they look line they have a treadwear of 160

The tires aren't exactly as I remembered them.
They are AVI-55. Size is 185/55-ZR15.
Treadwear # is 180.

Hey Scott

I believe I have posted once on your thread, urging you to get instruction. I too, am new to AX (6 to be exact), but the biggest push for me early on was to get instruction. I have since done many things to the car. You can read all about it in other posts. The problem with this is that every time I make a change, I have to re-learn how the car handles. Yes, it makes me feel good to go a little faster each time, but I wonder if I would have gained the speed with just more experience with the car the way it was for awhile, and left the money in the bank. It seems as though you have the competitive spirit it takes and that is good. I like to wrench on my car, when I am not playing golf, and at nearly 69 have the time to do it, so for me it is all fun. At least while I am healthy enough to do it.

Oh, and the 205's work fine on my 5.5 wheels, but I am going to 7s. I did have to roll the fenders and pull them out a little to get the A6s in there. No big deal.

Hi Warren, thanks for the post(s).
I agree with what you are saying and I agree with you and everyone else who says I can get there with improved driving alone.
The problem as I see it is I can't get there with driving alone and win the cumulative championship.
So the real question is whether the benefit to my competitive nature as you called it is worth $500.
Now that Chris has offered me tires to use I don't see any issues.
As I eluded to before, I'm a quick learner so I do not see a downside to tires, especially when they will only cost a tank of gas.

See if Chris will take you out in YOUR car and show you the weight transfer somewhere...it a parking lot or wherever...
Let him drive.

I autoxed for 2 years with no instruction...cause I am proud.
Then I sat in a very fast guys 914...he could take me by three to five seconds easily and typically got FTD for the whole region.

He took me for one run, hammering the brakes, resetting the car (all the while talking like we were on a sunday drive...funny really)

At the end of the run he said "amazing what these little cars can do huh? you just need to trust the car"

I went on my next run and got within half a second of him eating up three seconds in one simple drive.
I learned something that could not be explained, I needed to feel it to understand what everyone was trying to tell me.

Best thing is Ride in a fast 914...not a 911, but a 914.

rich

Hey Scott,
I have a full set of Kumho V710 DOT R tires. Sounds like they'd push you out of your class, but if you want them, you can come get them for free. I'd say they have at least 50% left.

They're 205s and were mounted on factory Fuchs with no rubbing issues. Incidentally I also have 4 Fuchs if you're also interested in those (not for free!).

Thanks Rich,
I don't want to go to R spec tires this year, but I haven't decided yet what I'll do next season so I might double up on my road trip the CFR to get the other tires and visit you too (though I might still just bite the bullet and by new).
Shoot me a PM about the Fuchs when you have time - no rush...
Scott

Next AX is this Sunday.
I haven't had time to get down to CFR to borrow some tires so I'll be on the Eagle GT's again.
It would be nice to step up and catch the Stealth ahead of me - we'll see!

Where is the autox?

Rich

The parking lot at NHMS

My usual nemesis' weren't there, but I slid to a sixth place finish anyway
It was a fun course though and I did have some good runs, I just didn't manage to step up as much as others did during the second set!

Here is how close we are running with PAX (times are rounded):

6th 30.9
5th 30.8
4th 30.7
3rd 30.6
2nd 30.5
1st 29.8 (ok we all got smoke by the guy in the S4)

Hopefully I can make it down to CFR before the next one and borrow some tires...

EDIT: Also, am I correctly grouped for PAX in C Stock?
I ask because on straight time I was 3rd fastest in the novice class, but PAX backed me up 3 spots.

Also, FWIW a mustang convertible that I have been beating all along put on tires and is now beating me in PAX (still slower real time)...

1st run before I remembered to turn off the fogs (I use them as daytime running lights).

might want an anti sway bar to help that car out.

running against an S4....you will never catch him.
Tires would certainly get you up one second...

Rich

It has a stock front bar Rich

Can you move the top of the drop link closer to the bar?
I think there are adjustments on the stock bar, not sure though.

Rich

Not adjustable.
The body roll is why I was asking about 140 lbs. springs a few posts back.

Everything is adjustable

Think about moving the top link about an inch closer to the main bar....

Drill, bolt, simple.

I have 180 lb rears and a 21mm front bar
Bilstiens all around.
Stiff as hell.

It's a downhill slope from here buddy.

Ok, I'll take a look at moving the link.

I know I don't want the car as stiff as yours!

Yeah I know, but I have other expensive hobbies (like eating) that keep it all in check!

I've done a great job so far of not just throwing some new tires on the credit card!

Take a look at the bar, the stock ones I have removed had multiple holes in the bar facing forward.
Its not as fine an adjustment as the one I have, but you dont need to fine tune, you need large steps right now to reduce body roll.

Dont move it more than one step at a time.
Get used to it..

Or do it like I know you will....but watch out for the front end pushing...
You dont want a super stiff front with a soft rear...
you want a balance, based upon everything else in your car.

A little bit more bar up front might solve this.

When is the next Autox?

I may have a few things you can borrow to stiffen it up for the event


rich

Here is what I have

Click to view attachment


The next one is June 30th.

Although the car rolls hard it is fairly balanced, but does push already....

I would like to ask a real question.
Have you spun the car yet?
More than once (different types of turns?)

If not, you are not pushing it hard enough.
It takes one run to win...the rest are practice runs

You can take them in that car, but you need to dance on the edge of a spin...all the time.
So, you need to feel where that line is.

Only way I know how to teach that is to cross the line a few times.
Then you know where the line is.

Then you start feeling that wieght shift and how the car feels right before it spins.
You want to keep the car at that point of right before it spins...
Then its fun.

To me, its constantly moving from one potential spin to the next.

I would suggest rear springs are the next upgrade...

Leave the bar...to hard to replace and not as worthwhile as rear springs.

You can also make (or find) other links for the horizontal piece..
If you get that drop link closer to the main bar, you will feel the results.

Me, I found a soft front and a stiff rear works best with the low power of the stock motor.
You need to get the car setup so you can fish tail it with the gas pedal...
That is motor, or suspension.

If you are low budget....think about rubber spacers in the rear springs.
Cheap to make, and wire them in place.

rich

I agree that rear springs should be your next upgrade but come on Rich, spacers?

Yes I have lost the back end of the car a few times, usually in the slalom but it also comes out in the long sweepers when the power is down.

Everyplace else it pushes.

On my best run I got compliments from guys who didn't even see my time - they just liked the way I was driving it hard!

So I believe I am driving with the aggresivness that you are looking for Rich

If you look in the classifieds you will see where I already put a WTB for rear springs so it sounds like I'm doing what I can on my budget.

Making shorter arms for the front bar wouldn't be that hard, but I just don't have the time.