Hi guys,

I spent last few weeks to prep on my newly acquired 2.0 and it's finally in the car! But she doesn't wanna wake up.... I know our Bay has been cold lately...but today is beautiful!!!

It turns over, has fuel pressure around 30psi when cranking(20psi soon after when the key turned off), static timing done after points gap adjusted, all the electrical connections checked I think, and what else???

Actually there're at least 2 concerns I can think of. When I got the motor, the dizzy rotor was pointing somewhere around#4 position when the TDC mark was showing in the round window. So I moved the gear in order for rotor to point #1 as I confirmed the valves were loose. But wondering if I did it correctly. I took the gas tank out as I installed stainless fuel lines. The tank was sitting in my garage for about a week or so then it developed some rust. So I cleaned inside with rust remover. But I might not have rinsed it well enough. New fuel filter still looks clean after uncountable numbers of attempt of starting the motor. New fuel sock is in the tank.

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So I am stuck now

What do you all think I screwed?

Thanks in advance,

kkid

Are you starting the engine with it in the car o on an engine stand?

Konrad

I didn't hear you say you had a good spark at the plugs. Seems too obvious, but.... Do you?

it's in the car already as seen on the 2nd pic.

how can you tell if it's good or weak spark?

sorry, I gotta p/u my daughter from school.

It takes a combination of fuel + air + spark to fire.
Start by checking the basics

If you have a dwell meter hook it up and measure the dwell while turning it over. Should be 45-47.

You said that the fuel presure drops after cranking, does it go to about 0 shortly after you turn the key off?

I'm putting my money on the distributor drive gear is misaligned/improperly located. If the timing is close and you have fuel and spark, it should at least cough...

Fuel lines at fuel rails are crossed?

You'll see the TDC marker in the window for every revolution of the crank, not just for cylinder #1. Make absolutely sure you're at TDC on cyl # 1. The fact that you said it was pointing at cyl # 4 and you had to rotate go the dizzy drive gear 180° has me wondering if you were watching TDC for cyl # 4 instead of # 1


For a spark check, pull one of your spark plugs out and lay it where you can see it. Keep the hi tension lead attached and ground the threaded portion with a good-sized alligator clip and jumper cable, then have an assistant crank the motor while you watch for spark.

One easy trick is to just pull a plug wire, plug in a good new spark plug, hold the threads of said plug to the block....Or some good ground.... And have someone crank the starter while you watch the spark.

That bugger should scare you with a nice fat blue/white spark. If it is weak and yellow then we have a troubleshooting track to go down.

By changing the distributor drive gear around whn you got the motor back from the engine builder, you probaly have it 180 degrees out of time. The is only one correct position for the cam, crank and distributor to all be timed correctly when the engine is assembled. Let's assume the engine builder did it right, but the engine was turned over by hand after it was assembled, probably when they installed the fan & alterntor belt.
The firing order is 1-3-4-2. That means whenever TDC comes up to the timing mark/pointer, the rotor will either be pointing to #1 or #4 cylinder (and no others). Switch the distributor drive gear back to where it was when you got he engine and then set the static timing of the distributor. I bet it will probably start right up. I once had a similar problem with a 1960 Alfa Romeo Gielietta. The PO's previous mechanic had installed the distributor shaft drive gear wrong by 180 degress and then moved all the plug wires on the cap by 180 degress to make it run, instead of tearing the engine down to install the distributor shaft drive gear correctly. There is a reason the distributor shaft drive has a gear at one end and an offset "notch" at the other.

1-4-3-2.

I thought these distributors had a slot that only permits you to install the distributor drive in the right possition, in which case you have to change the timing by rotating the spark plug wires by 180 degrees clockwise or counter clockwise, either way ends up in the same place.
Also, check for spark while you are at it.

Lennies914 and I had the same problem, it turned out to be the injection trigger points in the dizzy were sticking! We opened up the dizzy, replaced the trigger plate and it started right up!

If you changed the distributer 180 degrees, change the spark plug wires accordingly.
Tom

I haven't set the dwell but point gap. Fuel pressure drops down to 20psi and it holds there for a long time. I still see 10psi next morning.

I smell fish here too.

I did that when I took the engine out last time. I checked the lines from the tank to injectors few times already. But I might have to triple check at least in the engine compartment.

Thanks,

I rotated the drive gear counter clockwise for about 90 degrees from there while I was checking the cylinder #1 valves looseness.

Thank guys for the advice.

I will check the spark today while my friend is here.

Actually, my daughter told me to wait till Christmas.

kkid

So I set the flywheel at TDC for #1 first then crawled under and checked to see if the valves are closed with some slack on the arms. Yes, there're some slack on both valves. Then I moved on to the #3 if the both valves're open with no slack on the arms. Yep, there is no slack and tight. So they're open?

Could I call it good?

One easy trick is to just pull a plug wire, plug in a good new spark plug, hold the threads of said plug to the block....Or some good ground.... And have someone crank the starter while you watch the spark.

That bugger should scare you with a nice fat blue/white spark. If it is weak and yellow then we have a troubleshooting track to go down.
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I tried your method and had a decent spark. Can't tell if it's white, blue or yellow but it didn't look weak. Did only on #2 plug wire. Should I try on all other terminal wires too?

Thanks,

kkid

Checked on the injector to see if it's working. Tried on #1 injector while cranking. I placed a paint spray cap underneath the said injector and got some gas in it. But I see some gas leak from #2 injector even though electrical plug was not attached. Is this normal???

Nope. The injector is likely gummed up a little bit and is not closing fully.

Thanks, I think the gas in the tank should be contaminated.

It looks like I'm gonna have to take the tank out and head out to my local radiator shop.

kkid

Thanks, I think the gas in the tank should be contaminated.

It looks like I'm gonna have to take the tank out and head out to my local radiator shop.

kkid

Good.

Install your dizzy with Cyl#1 at TDC and snap some pix of the dizzy with the cap off. Show us where the little notch is in the dizzy's body is and where the rotor is pointed.

Leaking injector - bad (and a fire hazard)

Gas doesn't last for shit anymore

Hi
I always examine for the simple solution,

1. Check that TDC lines up with no 1 cylinder.

2. get someone to crank the motor and first check spark is coming from the coil by holding the coil wire a few mm off the block. If there is spark check the no 1 lead.
3. If there is spark at the number one lead pour a small amount of fuel down the intake manifold , if it fires and runs for a second or two. if no spark.

WARNING---do not pour fuel down the manifold whilst turning the motor over. If it is not properly tuned and it back fires it will ignite the fuel in the container you are holding. No need to explain, that's is bad news.

4. If no spark check the points gap.

5. Spark but no fire , check fuel supply.

I just pulled my own tank and the screen and filter were clogged. I undertook the Por 15 fuel tank restoration process and bought a new screen and filter plus changed all the lines and fuel hose.

Just my 2c worth on top of the other good advice.

Oh, forgot. If you pull the plug from number 1 and think you are at TDC all you need to do is put something soft like a plastic straw into the plug hole if the piston is at the TDC the straw will only go into the cylinder about 2 inches if not the straw will go in about 6 inches, just saves a lot of valve checking etc. Must not use anything hard like a screw driver.

Here goes!!

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Photo of leaky injector is currently unavailable.

Thanks for dropping by and leaving the check list.

1. Check that TDC lines up with no 1 cylinder.
Done and looks good.
2. get someone to crank the motor and first check spark is coming from the coil by holding the coil wire a few mm off the block. If there is spark check the no 1 lead.
Done and good.

3. If there is spark at the number one lead pour a small amount of fuel down the intake manifold , if it fires and runs for a second or two. if no spark.
Done but motor did not start this way.

4. If no spark check the points gap.
Done and looks good.

5. Spark but no fire , check fuel supply.
Will pull the tank and have it cleaned at my local radiator shop, then change the sock, filter and rubber lines. (+install other clean set of injectors)

*If the fuel pump is contaminated and possibly gummed, what would be the best way to clean at home?

*Should we take the oil in the case to be already contaminated by fuel after a number of attempts to start the engine?


Thanks,

kkid

That is not the flywheel, it's the cooling fan. That IS a timing mark which may or may not indicate TDC. I think It may indicate 27 deg BTDC. The timing mark on the flywheel is viewed through a hole where the trans and engine cases come together, from underneath.
Assuming both pictures were taken without rotating the crank AND assuming that is the 27 deg BTDC mark then It looks to me (not an expert) that your timing is retarded 27 deg when its not running. That may keep it from running.

So I wonder... If you rotate the dizzy clockwise 27deg, to match up with the timing mark on the fan, would it start???
At least I think it's clockwise (not an expert).

Good luck!

Zero is TDC. The hash mark on this fan is 27° BTDC. For a 2.0L, you'll want approx 34° at 3500 rpm. Depending on a couple factors, 34° may be too much advance. You don't want any pinging, so be prepared to retard if necessary, then make a new mark for your specific requirements.

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Read this Pelican article on timing ... Click here

You're right! It's a cooling fan not a flywheel that's we're looking at. On my 2.0, I believed the TDC is painted in white and timing mark is a red skinnier mark. How's yours, BOB?

Speaking of a flywheel, if we see the engraved mark(TDC) from the window underneath where the cases are mated, it means the TDC for both #4 or #2. Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks,

kkid

Mine has only one mark for 27deg BTDC. I have read there is some variation in these marks depending on the engine size/Mfg date... I set my timing to show the red line in the notch at 3500 RPM, fully advanced.

I believe the flywheel mark in the little window should be TDC for #1 or 3 depending. It will alternate, one then the other.

Pulled the gas tank today and sent it to a local radiator shop in my area.

Will watch it to be cleaned tomorrow. So I can take it home and install as soon as I pick it up.

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kkid

[quote name='kkid' date='Dec 16 2013, 01:23 AM' post='1971104']
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3. If there is spark at the number one lead pour a small amount of fuel down the intake manifold , if it fires and runs for a second or two. if no spark.
Done but motor did not start this way.

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Im certainly no expert here, but this really sounds like a timing issue. If you put a small bit of fuel into the intake manifold, you should have had something happen, even if it was a backfire from one end or the other, unless your timing is simply way out of whack !! Just my $0.02 worth !!

Check the ground wire on the points plate in the dizzy to make sure it's got good connection; engine will not fire if it's bad.
And double check your CHT connection to make sure it's tightly connected at the wiring harness. I've had both of those little dumb things happen to me in the past and it took me too long to figure them out.....

The zero on your fan is tdc. That and the notch in the distributor body that the rotor points to is correct. The timing for a djet is at the 27* mark on the fan like Euro's pic shows. Never 34 with djet.

Try pouring more than "just a little" fuel in the manifold then crank it again. If you have fire at the plugs, and fuel in the manifold, it should start.

Now my gas tank is out and the 2 fuel lines are hanging in the trunk(plugged with paper towel). Everything else is connected. Can I still try your method with more than "just a little" fuel? Maybe I should take the fuel pump relay out and try this again? Can I pour it from TB with the butterfly closed or direct into the plenum?

I can try now but hope the battery is still strong enough to start it.

Thanks for help,

kkid

Please be outside when trying this and have an extinguisher handy. Safety always with gasoline.

Thanks for the heads-up!

So I tried but she doesn't wanna wake up still.

Should I pour more gas????

Plugs smell gas maybe from previous attempts...

There're some carbon on the plug electrodes that I can see.

BTW, is our injector polarity-sensitive???

Thanks,

kkid

The wire on the dizzy plates is good(new plates).
Double checked the CHT connection and confirmed good and tight.

Prior to this engine installation I swapped the ECU and CHT from my car to this unit because the D-jet components that came with the motor were mixed up with '73 and '74.

The MPS was for '74(never been opened with rivets still intact, tested and holds vacuum with no leak). But the ECU was for '73 and CHT was for 1.7. There was no ballast resistor.

Anyways, the CHT and ECU are from a running car.


Thanks,

kkid

Should I check the compression on the engine with new rings?

It looks like I should abort the fuel tank cleaning until we discover the problems(s).

gotta take my daughter to dentist...

Have a great day(night), guys!

Thanks,

kkid

Maybe the harness wiring is different from 73 to 74 and doesn't match the 74 ECU!??

The motor is from a '73.

Maybe the po swapped the harness and the other stuff to try to make it work. A 74 harness with 74 ECU.....? Now you may have a 74 harness with 73 ECU....just saying..... I don't know if they are different but I have changed the pin out on an early 1.7l harness to match the 2.0L later car! When I swapped the engines!

Sorry about the confusions. I've just swapped the '73 harness to '74's. Now the motor has '74 D-jet parts from head to toe except the TB w/2 ports. Let's see if we see any changes...

Will pick up my gas tank from my local radiator shop this afternoon.

Hoping to install the tank either today or tomorrow to see if she wants to wake up this time.

Thanks,

kkid