Here is a link to part one:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...117&hl=2056
I decide my t1 oil pump in my 2056 was doing me no favors with a smaller than ideal OD.
I still had the T4 oil pump from the 2.0 that was doing its job when I had a cam thrust bearing fail /knock, so I decided to pull it a part for inspection.
I will perform some measurements and get it cleaned up, if it turns out to be in good shape.
The pics look like a great core.
Click to view attachment
Full Version: 2056 rebuild part THREE
Agree - looks like a pretty good core.
Pin the idler shaft.
Mandatory reading:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156
Pin the idler shaft.
Mandatory reading:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156
Great link, this should be a sticky if its not there already
Agree - looks like a pretty good core.
Pin the idler shaft.
Mandatory reading:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 6 2023, 08:50 AM) 
Agree - looks like a pretty good core.
Pin the idler shaft.
Mandatory reading:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156
Here are come pics of case split and inspections Click to view attachment
another of the saddle and low pin locator
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
rear thrust againClick to view attachment
so what are your impressions of your observations pictured here? how many miles since it had been rebuilt, it seems like just recently you completed that rebuild?
Phil
Phil
Phil,
This build and the last build had a total of less that 100 miles the Failure again was the top end intake valves and guides. Ill post pic of the worn out valve guides
The bottom end seemed OK. but erratic oil pressure problems I am sure added to the guides issue
Also The Crank end play had .0045 when assembled and CHECKED
I added the rear main and the play went to zero . Sound like a familiar thread others have seen.... I continued any way thinking the seal was adding the buffer to the clearance. I had howling bear noises and the wear pic on the side of the thrust confirmed it was tight. Looks like new bearings and pump for bottom end I will check the saddles for possible line bore
This build and the last build had a total of less that 100 miles the Failure again was the top end intake valves and guides. Ill post pic of the worn out valve guides
The bottom end seemed OK. but erratic oil pressure problems I am sure added to the guides issue
Also The Crank end play had .0045 when assembled and CHECKED
I added the rear main and the play went to zero . Sound like a familiar thread others have seen.... I continued any way thinking the seal was adding the buffer to the clearance. I had howling bear noises and the wear pic on the side of the thrust confirmed it was tight. Looks like new bearings and pump for bottom end I will check the saddles for possible line bore
Here is the worst of the intake guide #1. The exhaust guilds are fine at .001 t o .0015
This intake is at .006 to .007. This was only less that 100 miles and were NEW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7KPNeAiRig
This intake is at .006 to .007. This was only less that 100 miles and were NEW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7KPNeAiRig
I have a new local shop add new intake guides and intake valves if needed
My summary of this build:
1) OIL pressure problems
2) Oil type problem ZR1 20w50
3) Temperature problems
4) Bad intake guides
or all the above
When she ran it ran VERY well power, speed no spark knock. FUN
Valvses would stick and dead cylinders till next run
1) OIL pressure problems
2) Oil type problem ZR1 20w50
3) Temperature problems
4) Bad intake guides
or all the above
When she ran it ran VERY well power, speed no spark knock. FUN
Valvses would stick and dead cylinders till next run
QUOTE(rfinegan @ Feb 6 2023, 10:42 AM)
Phil,
This build and the last build had a total of less that 100 miles the Failure again was the top end intake valves and guides. Ill post pic of the worn out valve guides
The bottom end seemed OK. but erratic oil pressure problems I am sure added to the guides issue
Also The Crank end play had .0045 when assembled and CHECKED
I added the rear main and the play went to zero . Sound like a familiar thread others have seen.... I continued any way thinking the seal was adding the buffer to the clearance. I had howling bear noises and the wear pic on the side of the thrust confirmed it was tight. Looks like new bearings and pump for bottom end I will check the saddles for possible line bore
interesting about the guide wear, and the crank end play. I now have 2500 miles and recently had developed what i think is a RMS leak - again, after replacing it when i did the transmission seals about 10 months ago. So last night i pullted the motor and today will pull of the trans to look at that and im going to check the cranksaft endplay , i have heard that too much play will cause the leak, but maybe itd just a bad VR seal so i got new Ehrling.
am i correct that the crank endplay should be tested with no seal? i might as well check it before i even pull the flywheel, it its in spec i can recheck without new seal,
re-install seal and flywheel and the double check again , correct? lets hope its all still good i am hoping for just a seal replacment. Like you my motor running good. these are new AA head casings with brand new br seats, sterlite valves and new porsche guides with solid spacers etc. 2056 all new KB pistons hastings rings new cylinders etc. - anyway iver been watching and reading your postings . and re-reading since i will also be putting back together the original motor for a stock numbers matching correct build , thats for later. Oh the guy that assembled my short block said wht i have the other OEM heads done by another machine shop the guidse were off some wer too tight and some were too loose and that shjop(eagle machine in atlanta) said they were sourced from Porsche. My new guy made sure the new guides were perfect before installing them both on my old original rebuilt heads and these new AA casting heads on the 2056.
PHil- what is hte proper end play i am looking for for the crankshaft end play?
Crankshaft float s/b .004" plus or minus .001".
One thing to do, to reduce the RMS potential for a leak, is to use the proper installation tool. Got away without using one before for years, but am now convinced of the value now (don't you hate having to drop an engine and transmission to fix a leak?).
Hear's why:
https://gowesty.com/blogs/article-library/f...main-seal-story
Here's the tool:
https://gowesty.com/products/rear-main-seal...a61af&_ss=r
Best wishes for getting her fixed!
One thing to do, to reduce the RMS potential for a leak, is to use the proper installation tool. Got away without using one before for years, but am now convinced of the value now (don't you hate having to drop an engine and transmission to fix a leak?).
Hear's why:
https://gowesty.com/blogs/article-library/f...main-seal-story
Here's the tool:
https://gowesty.com/products/rear-main-seal...a61af&_ss=r
Best wishes for getting her fixed!
check in without seal and again once the seal is installed. should be the same.
0.0027 to 0.0051. most shoot for 0.004”
Place the thinnest shim in the center of the three shim pack.
Click to view attachment
0.0027 to 0.0051. most shoot for 0.004”
Place the thinnest shim in the center of the three shim pack.
Click to view attachment
QUOTE(rfinegan @ Feb 6 2023, 07:45 AM)
Here is the worst of the intake guide #1. The exhaust guilds are fine at .001 t o .0015
This intake is at .006 to .007. This was only less that 100 miles and were NEW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7KPNeAiRig
Did the shop that installed the new valves and valve guides fail to ream the guides after the guides were pressed into the heads? Did they mix up the intake and exhaust valve guides? I think the guides are different diameters, like 8 mmm and 9 mm, so they are difficult to tell apart.
Rear main seal tool, use a block of wood. Go easy and make sure it's not cocked, flush with the case. End play, shoot for .003.
QUOTE(Geezer914 @ Feb 7 2023, 08:56 AM)
Rear main seal tool, use a block of wood. Go easy and make sure it's not cocked, flush with the case. End play, shoot for .003.
Yep that works,I use a small amount of engine oil on the outside of the seal then start it in by hand level then use my soft "dead blow " mallet to tap it in flush with the case,done this for years and never had an issue.
I don't know about the fit of the VR orange seal in a T4 cause I don't use them anymore after experiencing a very poor fit in my 911 engine ,it was so loose I pushed it in by hand
the Elring replacement got the mallet treatment and not leaking a I'am sure the VR one would have leaked .Also make sure the flywheel seal running surface is nice and smooth and lubed up and the o ring area is clean before fitting and lightly oiled.
Front seals don't really give issues unless they are just plain worn out ,if so you end up with a shitty mess in the fan housing ,fan ,cooler and across the barrels,certainly worth cleaning up right,cheers.
GREAT info on the rear main seal. ..with mods
https://www.facebook.com/1160006259/videos/5098274283572774/
https://www.facebook.com/1160006259/videos/5098274283572774/
Happy day for a change in the garage
A world member set me up with a 4 post yoke for the engine stand (Thanks Nick)
Click to view attachment
A world member set me up with a 4 post yoke for the engine stand (Thanks Nick)
Click to view attachment
What were your thoughts on the wrong oil? Why did you mention that?
From your picture of the engine case mounted in the new stand, you might want to do a little research to find a cure for the RMS leak problem.
Take a look at the posts in the Facebook "4th Dimension Type 4 Porsche/VW Performance Group" or do a YouTube search for Jake Raby's video about how to fix leaking rear main seals on Type 4 engines. I recently saw that video and was surprised by Jake's comments.
Raby files two very small relief passages above and below the rear main bearing saddle area on one side the engine case to allow oil a path to drain out of the cavity between the main bearing and the seal/crank spacers so the rear main seal stays oil tight. Raby says the factory oil drain hole is too high in this area, as well as lacking any way for air to enter the cavity so the oil can drain back into the sump, thereby creating an air lock which prevents the oil in that area from escaping unless it forces its way past the rear main seal lip. Raby also said that while the factory started using a drain hole in the 2 liter cases, it never put a drain hole in the earlier 1.7 & 1.8 liter cases. Raby further claims the factory's drain hole in the 2 liter cases was too small in diameter and located too high in the bearing saddle area to properly drain the oil back into the sump.
He also said it really doesn't matter what brand of seal you use (Victor Reinz or Elring) these days if you don't make the new oil drain passages he described in his video. However, Raby does mention that the black SABO brand seals are no longer any good and should now be completely avoided because the SABO factory's seal mold has worn out. Another thing he mentioned is that the width of the rear main seals is different because the VW Type 4 engine cases and the Porsche engine cases take different width seals because of the different sizes of the flywheel & pilot bearings in the two types of engines.
Raby said he now uses a proprietary rear main seal he gets from one of his customers who sells all types of industrial seals. Raby uses that "mystery special" seal on all the Type 4 engines he builds these days. Raby won't sell it to the public (nor does the Type 4 Store) and Raby said it comes from an unnamed military helicopter's drive unit.
Take a look at the posts in the Facebook "4th Dimension Type 4 Porsche/VW Performance Group" or do a YouTube search for Jake Raby's video about how to fix leaking rear main seals on Type 4 engines. I recently saw that video and was surprised by Jake's comments.
Raby files two very small relief passages above and below the rear main bearing saddle area on one side the engine case to allow oil a path to drain out of the cavity between the main bearing and the seal/crank spacers so the rear main seal stays oil tight. Raby says the factory oil drain hole is too high in this area, as well as lacking any way for air to enter the cavity so the oil can drain back into the sump, thereby creating an air lock which prevents the oil in that area from escaping unless it forces its way past the rear main seal lip. Raby also said that while the factory started using a drain hole in the 2 liter cases, it never put a drain hole in the earlier 1.7 & 1.8 liter cases. Raby further claims the factory's drain hole in the 2 liter cases was too small in diameter and located too high in the bearing saddle area to properly drain the oil back into the sump.
He also said it really doesn't matter what brand of seal you use (Victor Reinz or Elring) these days if you don't make the new oil drain passages he described in his video. However, Raby does mention that the black SABO brand seals are no longer any good and should now be completely avoided because the SABO factory's seal mold has worn out. Another thing he mentioned is that the width of the rear main seals is different because the VW Type 4 engine cases and the Porsche engine cases take different width seals because of the different sizes of the flywheel & pilot bearings in the two types of engines.
Raby said he now uses a proprietary rear main seal he gets from one of his customers who sells all types of industrial seals. Raby uses that "mystery special" seal on all the Type 4 engines he builds these days. Raby won't sell it to the public (nor does the Type 4 Store) and Raby said it comes from an unnamed military helicopter's drive unit.
I was thinking the VR1 20W50 was not the best oil for break in. Also may bypass the oil pressure controls to the cooler when cold and possibly longer with the 30mm pump.
Some-thing wore out all my NEW intake guides in less than 100 mile...
Total worn out!
What were your thoughts on the wrong oil? Why did you mention that?
Some-thing wore out all my NEW intake guides in less than 100 mile...
Total worn out!
QUOTE(NARP74 @ Feb 14 2023, 04:46 PM)
What were your thoughts on the wrong oil? Why did you mention that?
QUOTE(rfinegan @ Feb 14 2023, 03:32 PM)
I was thinking the ZR 20W50 was not the best oil for break in. Also may bypass the oil pressure controls to the cooler when cold and possibly longer with the 30mm pump.
Some-thing wore out all my NEW intake guides in less than 100 mile...
Total worn out!
QUOTE(NARP74 @ Feb 14 2023, 04:46 PM)
What were your thoughts on the wrong oil? Why did you mention that?
OK, thanks
I linked to the Raby live stream in post 19
Now that I'm on the stand I will cut the drains on the one case 1/2 but I did not have issues with my rear leaking. Thanks for descriptive tips...
From your picture of the engine case mounted in the new stand, you might want to do a little research to find a cure for the RMS leak problem.
Take a look at the posts in the Facebook "4th Dimension Type 4 Porsche/VW Performance Group" or do a YouTube search for Jake Raby's video about how to fix leaking rear main seals on Type 4 engines. I recently saw that video and was surprised by Jake's comments.
Raby files two very small relief passages above and below the rear main bearing saddle area on one side the engine case to allow oil a path to drain out of the cavity between the main bearing and the seal/crank spacers so the rear main seal stays oil tight. Raby says the factory oil drain hole is too high in this area, as well as lacking any way for air to enter the cavity so the oil can drain back into the sump, thereby creating an air lock which prevents the oil in that area from escaping unless it forces its way past the rear main seal lip. Raby also said that while the factory started using a drain hole in the 2 liter cases, it never put a drain hole in the earlier 1.7 & 1.8 liter cases. Raby further claims the factory's drain hole in the 2 liter cases was too small in diameter and located too high in the bearing saddle area to properly drain the oil back into the sump.
He also said it really doesn't matter what brand of seal you use (Victor Reinz or Elring) these days if you don't make the new oil drain passages he described in his video. However, Raby does mention that the black SABO brand seals are no longer any good and should now be completely avoided because the SABO factory's seal mold has worn out. Another thing he mentioned is that the width of the rear main seals is different because the VW Type 4 engine cases and the Porsche engine cases take different width seals because of the different sizes of the flywheel & pilot bearings in the two types of engines.
Raby said he now uses a proprietary rear main seal he gets from one of his customers who sells all types of industrial seals. Raby uses that "mystery special" seal on all the Type 4 engines he builds these days. Raby won't sell it to the public (nor does the Type 4 Store) and Raby said it comes from an unnamed military helicopter's drive unit.
Now that I'm on the stand I will cut the drains on the one case 1/2 but I did not have issues with my rear leaking. Thanks for descriptive tips...
QUOTE(914sgofast2 @ Feb 14 2023, 04:51 PM)
From your picture of the engine case mounted in the new stand, you might want to do a little research to find a cure for the RMS leak problem.
Take a look at the posts in the Facebook "4th Dimension Type 4 Porsche/VW Performance Group" or do a YouTube search for Jake Raby's video about how to fix leaking rear main seals on Type 4 engines. I recently saw that video and was surprised by Jake's comments.
Raby files two very small relief passages above and below the rear main bearing saddle area on one side the engine case to allow oil a path to drain out of the cavity between the main bearing and the seal/crank spacers so the rear main seal stays oil tight. Raby says the factory oil drain hole is too high in this area, as well as lacking any way for air to enter the cavity so the oil can drain back into the sump, thereby creating an air lock which prevents the oil in that area from escaping unless it forces its way past the rear main seal lip. Raby also said that while the factory started using a drain hole in the 2 liter cases, it never put a drain hole in the earlier 1.7 & 1.8 liter cases. Raby further claims the factory's drain hole in the 2 liter cases was too small in diameter and located too high in the bearing saddle area to properly drain the oil back into the sump.
He also said it really doesn't matter what brand of seal you use (Victor Reinz or Elring) these days if you don't make the new oil drain passages he described in his video. However, Raby does mention that the black SABO brand seals are no longer any good and should now be completely avoided because the SABO factory's seal mold has worn out. Another thing he mentioned is that the width of the rear main seals is different because the VW Type 4 engine cases and the Porsche engine cases take different width seals because of the different sizes of the flywheel & pilot bearings in the two types of engines.
Raby said he now uses a proprietary rear main seal he gets from one of his customers who sells all types of industrial seals. Raby uses that "mystery special" seal on all the Type 4 engines he builds these days. Raby won't sell it to the public (nor does the Type 4 Store) and Raby said it comes from an unnamed military helicopter's drive unit.
Trying to keep the motivation up on this holiday week end....Click to view attachment
Old trick of the trade...no one asks to borrow any tools!
This will be the third build?
Curious about breakin methods for the cam/lifters.
Rich
Curious about breakin methods for the cam/lifters.
Rich
Rich,
Yep this is # 3 and the $1000 dollar question:
Do I reuse the Cam?
Do I reuse the Lifters?
Do I get new Lifters?
All new?
or all new and another cam profile?
first start:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2939711
I will for sure show the inspection and be asking for advice as we get to this very soon...
The first run was with the supplied cam lube and 20 min burn in @ 2500 rpm with variation to speed slightly to keep the oil flying in all directions .Followed by tuning and re torque of the heads prior to installation in car... video in part one
Second time was the above cam and lifters ( matched to lobes and lifter bores in SAME locations) with assembly lube and 15 burn in @ 2500 rpm
This will be the third build?
Curious about breakin methods for the cam/lifters.
Rich
Yep this is # 3 and the $1000 dollar question:
Do I reuse the Cam?
Do I reuse the Lifters?
Do I get new Lifters?
All new?
or all new and another cam profile?
first start:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2939711
I will for sure show the inspection and be asking for advice as we get to this very soon...
The first run was with the supplied cam lube and 20 min burn in @ 2500 rpm with variation to speed slightly to keep the oil flying in all directions .Followed by tuning and re torque of the heads prior to installation in car... video in part one
Second time was the above cam and lifters ( matched to lobes and lifter bores in SAME locations) with assembly lube and 15 burn in @ 2500 rpm
QUOTE(r_towle @ Feb 19 2023, 08:21 PM)
This will be the third build?
Curious about breakin methods for the cam/lifters.
Rich
Heads are repaired with new intake guides and 3 angle valve job (300.00):-)
NOT A CLEAN ROOM but good for measuring and inspection...Click to view attachment
NOT A CLEAN ROOM but good for measuring and inspection...Click to view attachment
I have my fingers and toes crossed this motor purrs perfectly for you. 
I will be having a sale on engine parts it it doesn’t... 
Thanks for the Positive motivation
I have my fingers and toes crossed this motor purrs perfectly for you.
Thanks for the Positive motivation QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 22 2023, 09:35 AM)
I have my fingers and toes crossed this motor purrs perfectly for you.
I did some detailed measuring on the con rod journals, but instead or re writing, Ill post a link
https://www.facebook.com/groups/type4ever/p...93206420997827/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/type4ever/p...93206420997827/
Lots of great info on this thread! Good luck!
It took a while but I finally got a set of NOS KS/KW 0.010 main bearings on the way....
I did have to pay more than I should have....but I think I am worth it! ;-)
Click to view attachment
I did have to pay more than I should have....but I think I am worth it! ;-)
Click to view attachment
Thanks to the generosity of a Kerry, world member here (White1975) and the loan of a T4 timing gear puller. I have the old bearings off and will be ready for the new bearings when they arrive
WooHoo
WooHoo
Add a VDO HEAD TEMP thermocouple under the #3 spark plug. Milled a small hole for the wires and crimp.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Unless things have changed, the VDO head temp gauges are not good, and are not temp compensated. I'd strongly consider using a quality head temp gauge like the Dakota Digital (or at least a temp compensated gauge.)
Milling a hole like that is, IMO, not better then cutting a groove in the boss for the K type sender. And when you decide that you are tired of the VDO CHT lying to you and want to change it out for a better one, you are going to be very unhappy when you go to remove and install a new K type sender.
Zach
Milling a hole like that is, IMO, not better then cutting a groove in the boss for the K type sender. And when you decide that you are tired of the VDO CHT lying to you and want to change it out for a better one, you are going to be very unhappy when you go to remove and install a new K type sender.
Zach
This way the sensor stays in place when servicing the plugs. Clean and EZ. IF this was a 2.0l FI head, a grove should be the way I would have gone too. It was simple to install by pulling the terminals out of the connector. It should be serviceable with the tins in place with long tiny bent hemostats or pliers
Thanks for the tip on the Dakota. If they made a matching gauge for my console I would give them a try but at this point I’m all analog and Black /White (no digital) VDO is beter than running blind
Thanks for the tip on the Dakota. If they made a matching gauge for my console I would give them a try but at this point I’m all analog and Black /White (no digital) VDO is beter than running blind
Never opposed to OE parts if you can get them....
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
I may be CRAZY, but got a set of ML Cam bearings now...Click to view attachment
NEW KS 2.0 rod bearing are HERE....
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Just got a new tube of valve lapping paste...The old one lasted 45 years!
Tonight lapped the cylinders to the heads(no head gaskets). I did not lap last time but did have the heads fly cut each time to true.
The new intakes were recut (machine not stone) and new guides. Owner of the shop said. These will be much better than the old valve jobs. They lapped the intake , so I decide to lap the exhaust too. Look good.
I ran a thread die on all the case studs and pullout all the plugs to clean with a gun cleaning kit prior to final cleaning . Lots of cleaning , then lots more
Click to view attachment
Tonight lapped the cylinders to the heads(no head gaskets). I did not lap last time but did have the heads fly cut each time to true.
The new intakes were recut (machine not stone) and new guides. Owner of the shop said. These will be much better than the old valve jobs. They lapped the intake , so I decide to lap the exhaust too. Look good.
I ran a thread die on all the case studs and pullout all the plugs to clean with a gun cleaning kit prior to final cleaning . Lots of cleaning , then lots more
Click to view attachment
KTM 125 top end upgrade in the background.....while at it for my son.
You keep learning all sorts of fun things!
QUOTE(rfinegan @ Jun 22 2023, 11:50 AM)
Just got a new tube of valve lapping paste...The old one lasted 45 years!
Tonight lapped the cylinders to the heads(no head gaskets). I did not lap last time but did have the heads fly cut each time to true.
The new intakes were recut (machine not stone) and new guides. Owner of the shop said. These will be much better than the old valve jobs. They lapped the intake , so I decide to lap the exhaust too. Look good.
I ran a thread die on all the case studs and pullout all the plugs to clean with a gun cleaning kit prior to final cleaning . Lots of cleaning , then lots more
Click to view attachment
I don't normally lap if the heads have been fly cut and the barrels are new,but won't hurt.
Wow you have had some bad luck with this build and hopefully it will be the last , following this one,cheers.
heads are disassembled cleaned and lubed and back together. ready to drop on...
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