The $5k motor price is a longblock.

No tin, no carbs, no ignition, no exhaust, and no installation. This sounds very negative, but I just want to be absolutely clear. The price of parts is the majority of the cost, so there's hardly any margin on it. A quality engine just can't be built any cheaper without compromise and there is no room for extras.

"The $5k motor price is a longblock.

No tin, no carbs, no ignition, no exhaust, and no installation. This sounds very negative, but I just want to be absolutely clear. The price of parts is the majority of the cost, so there's hardly any margin on it. A quality engine just can't be built any cheaper without compromise and there is no room for extras."

Ok all that is fine. I have all of that. Now what specific parts and services are included?

Also if I want the maximum HP available from this build what induction and ignition would be suggested?
If I decided to stay with the stock injection and ignition would that work effectively without major drivability issues? And run cool?
Thanks

Here's what's included:

• Rebuilt set of crank and rods
  
• Fully balanced rotating assembly that has been balance one step above what's normally available in his kits
  
• New pistons, rings, cylinders
  
• Fully rebuilt heads with all new parts that are modified by Jake (new special seats, new special guides, new valves, new springs, new retainers, new keepers, any cracks repaired)
  
• New hardware kit
  
• New cam and Jake's custom lifters that work
  
• Custom pushrods
  
• New clutch disk and pressure plate
  

Agreed, I'm interested, but just dropped a good portion of my savings into my daily driver... And I'd like to try to build up my own before I buy one.

I met a guy who just roached a converted bug, so I'll send him this way if I see him anytime soon. I'm not sure if he's looking into a new motor or if he has the funds, but I'll pass the word allong, seems like a great deal as far as I'm concerned.

Sounds like a nice engine. I had one of similar power in my 914 and constantly harrassed 200+hp 911s at the track and autocross courses.

A couple of questions I have is, besides the "longblock" that is the basis of this motor, do you have any estimates for the rest of the stuff needed to complete the motor. I don't have a core motor.. nothing. I am looking for a complete motor for "plug and play" purposes. If this motor is 5K, carbs, distributor, starter blah blah.. is this, for me, really an $8k motor? all for my $4k "roller". ouch.

Not slighting the product, just suprised how quickly the $$ can add up.

Longblock - $5500 (no core)
Distributor (Mallory) - $350
Carbs/FI - $1000

Now just add exhaust and a few misc items (tin, fan housing, etc).

So total would be $7000-$7500 depending on options.
But you could get the 1911 which doesn't need a core for $1000 less.
The price adds up very quickly when you have to start completely from scratch.

The cost of a quality engine will be more than most people bought their cars for, but these parts for these engines are not cheap and anything that costs less than this is cutting corners somewhere.

WOW! I just stumbled across this because I saw the link in Mark's signature. I'm in the "where were you a year ago" camp, but I want to say that I think this is a great offering.

I just finished rebuilding a 2.0L. My goal was to run stock D-Jet FI, but have slightly higher compression & better cam to get a little more HP while still running regular fuel. I used Euro flat-top pistons, got the cam I wanted, had to learn how to cc my heads so I could get the right barrel spacers from Jake to set the deck height for 8.1:1 compression. Jake never actually offered his kit of sealants in his online store so I had to figure out on my own what to use. I finally totalled my parts costs after the engine was installed and came up with $3200.

The engine seems to run great and doesn't leak a drop of oil, but I'm running mid-grade fuel because after only 500 miles I had run-on problems after shutting off the engine and switching from regular to mid-grade has stopped this, but at a cost of $.10 more per gallon. So the bottom line for me is that although I think I did well, and I enjoyed building the engine myself, I'm left with some nagging thoughts about some of the design decisions that I made and wondering if I should have done things differently.

Based on my experience, the next time I have a need for a Type IV engine, I'm going to be calling Mark. To get the proven DESIGN that Jake is offering, not to mention not having to invest the time involved in building the long block, is well worth it. Yes $5,000 is a good sized chunk of change, but the additional $1,800 is well worth it for knowing that you have a proven design that will last.

I also just ran across this and timing is wrong for me as I am down the path (somewhat errantly) with another builder, but I have some questions as well.


What will the warranty be on these?
What will you be advertising as build times?
No external oil cooler required?
Will you be offering installs?
Terms?

Good luck with this Mark. Nice to see you step up to the plate. Be patient! Customer service is everything.

My 1.8 liter is developing some engine noise. and I would love to have 125hp. Actually sounds like a dream....

Just finished doing a trans rebuild and can't imagine dumping that kind of change on her (5k$).

I have had this car about 10 yrs and although I am attatched to her I still must be honest.

emotions aside. The resale value of my girl in know way warrants such an expenditure.



I think that a used boxter is looking really good when you start pushing the 10k range in a 914 plus my own labor. Especially with the resale value again.

But all being said when mine finally goes I'll probably break down sobbing and call you however. That is after finding a 2.0 ltr organ doner

Patrick,

I'm not exactly sure what I will be advertising as a warranty. But I will be standing behind my work, as always. I know that people want to see a number to boost their confidence. I would be interested to know what people think is fair. I was thinking a 6-month, 6k mile limited warranty.

My build time quotes will become more accurate as I get settled into the process of ordering and getting the heads rebuilt. I've never done this sort of "mass-produced" engine building before. I expect the whole process from placing the order to delivery to take two months. I'm being conservative here because I don't want to over promise myself from the get-go.

External oil cooler requirements will be similar to stock engines. It's conceivable that members who live in very hot climates might need an extra cooler. But most will not.

Yes, I will be offering installs.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by terms.

I've added a bunch of pages to my web site for the engines.

pnewman,

Resale value and cost effectiveness is an issue that I'm very aware of. I hold the opinion that 914 prices are increasing fairly quickly for nicely restored cars. But these cars will probably never be resalable for a profit. I'd say that having an engine that's rebuild by a professional shop with a good reputation is a much better investment than a home rebuilt engine. I'm speaking from the hypothetical perspective of a potential buyer of a 914.

wow...I didnt know heads were rebuilt/opened up.

thats at least 2000 in and of itself.

hmm....

b

Yep. Everything on this engine is worked over.

that makes a good deal a great deal!!

I'm assuming the reason people have not stepped up and Not to be an A-hole but its probably because for a little more you can do a v-8 conversion and have 250 hp easy I understand this is easier to do however its still $5000.00 for 125 hp thats $40.00 per hp quite pricey......sorry to play devils advocate...

some guys want a V8 in their 914 but most don't when they go to buy. Guys that buy these cars want original as possible more and more these days.

I think you're overlooking a major detail...
If you payed to have v8 put in compaired to one of these, I think you would find that a v8 is no where near a compairable price.

A v8 is only a "little more" if you don't value your labor.

My engine has the conversions beat on install time, or time-till-driving.

I'm not setting out to compete with any of the conversions, six, subie, v8 or otherwise. I'm just interested in supporting the "stock" engine market with the most affordable, well built engine possible. I think I've done that and there have been a few people who have stepped up to the plate so I'm satisfied that they are out there.

I'm trying very hard to have my extra car fixed and one of these engines in it before the WCC so people can test drive it.

Been a lil while longer since then. In 2 months or so, im pullin a loan me thinks... 125 hp, reliable, new engine means no worries, just keep up maintanance... for 5K, what more could you ask for?

Exactly. Let me know when you're ready and we'll get you set up.

maybe we should piss you off more often so we can all get free engines

if i didn't have my engine rebuilt earlier this year, i would be ordering one right now.

Thanks for doing the work on these Mark

Jake, quit complaining about cheap 914 owners, really annoying.


FYI, i spent close to $5k on my 2.0 rebuild, so i think this is a very fair price.
this price actually has me considering the purchase of a roller, just so i have a reason to buy one of these engines.

Too bad. I'm not pissed off anymore. No more free engines.

You don't have to buy a roller. Everyone needs a spare engine.

How will these engines do in hot weather? (100+ degree summers) Or will it need additional cooling for that?
And you say you will be offering installs?

Zack, the engine shouldn't have a problem with hot days, as long as it's tuned correctly. A lean running engine on a hot day is never a good idea. If you're nervous, I would highly recommend an accurate oil temp gauge with numbers, and a CHT gauge. Actually, everyone should have those two gauges.

Who's a good source for a cht gauge and matching sending unit. Trying to match vdo oem on center console.

VDO makes a CHT gauge and sender. They're available all over place, mostly at Bug shops.

yup, cheapest online I found was cbperformance for $60

I heard James (morphenspectra) was selling VDOs.

Mark.. you say you will be offering installs?

Whoops, forgot to answer that part.

Yeah, I can install the engines as well.

Im just curious, if you can put together (basically) the 2056 for 5g's, why not offer a 2270 or 2316? If your motor is about 2g over the kit offered, then maybe put 3g over a 2316 build (around 8000). I would certainly jump on a 160-170hp motor for 8000 built nice. ahhh... dreams....

The answer to this question is simple..

The bigger engines REQUIRE the time and preparation (and design) that demands the extra cost.

If I sold a kit to Mark for a 2270, for him to make a dime from it, the cost would be near the same as the cost for my complete engine.

There are too many risks associated with creating performance "longblocks" of increased displacement and letting the installer be responsible for the set up.

The 2056 and 1911 kits are very easy to work with and this is why those engines are offered.

Giving an inexperienced person a 2270 in longblock form would be like handing a grendae to a 3 year old- its only a matter of time before something goes boom! Things going BOOM are not good for mark and certainly are devestating for me- I reduce the chances of these things as much as possible, thats why I only build Turn Key complete engines 100% dyno tuned.

IF someone wants a 2270 complete from Mark, based on one of my kits, he and I will talk. One thing is for certain, it still won't be "cheap".

If I understand correctly, the 2056 is more of a drop-in upgrade and the larger engines require clearencing of the block and different (more $) cranks etc.
Like they say, the more HP you want the more money it'll cost, exponentially...so the 125hp for $5k is the best bang for the buck type IV engine out there.

According to your website it says, "Now you can build your own 2270cc kit with confidence- Just like we do here! The 2270cc kit has all of the same features as our other engine kits and is sold complete. This kit goes together very easily, just like a mild stroker Type I"

So, does that mean Mark is experienced enough to put on of these together? When the words "goes together very easily" are used, what experience level must you be in order to actually put this together? Im just not understanding the reason to buy a 2270 kit if it requires an easy charge of around 5-7000 (bringing it close to your price for a complete engine). Even here the site says, "Benefit from our years of development with this highly refined, easy to assemble and easy to set up and tune engine by purchasing your 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 Store". Im not sure if simply paying 5000+ for assembly can be classified as easy.

Sorry for jumping slightly OT, just trying to figure out an actually price comparison between equal /4 and /6 engines and ease to maintain. If a weekend mechanic cant easily build an engine, then the troubleshooting and repair work must be done by an experienced shop which now increases the price and benifits of remaining with the /4 and getting great power from it.

QUOTE

Sorry for jumping slightly OT, just trying to figure out an actually price comparison between equal /4 and /6 engines and ease to maintain. If a weekend mechanic cant easily build an engine, then the troubleshooting and repair work must be done by an experienced shop which now increases the price and benifits of remaining with the /4 and getting great power from it.

/4 motor: bolt right in, use all stock components, can upgrade parts at your leisure.....with this deal you are looking at $1250 per cylinder


/6 motor: for a fair comparison, you'd have to rebuild the engine at a cost of $1000 to $1500 per cylinder ($6K to $9K) and then add the thousands of dollars for the conversion.

the engine offer from Mark is for people that do not want to build the motor or feel they cannot build it, even thou with enough instruction anyone should be able to build it yet they choose not to....nothing wrong with letting someone else deal with the assembly and procuring all the parts needed........

Thats almost directly my point. If Mark is decent enough builder to make the 2056, then (according to the aircooled site listing the 2317 build as EASY) it would seem like an $3000 on top of the purchase of a 2270 kit at about $4700 and the 2316 kit @ $4800(brings it to about 8000). The 2056 kit is about $3200 (labor added for complete build $1800), so, for about an additional $1500 in parts and an additional $3200 for complete build i would pay that.

I understand that Mark is doing a service for those of us who probably dont want to tackle an engine build and i certainly thank him for that. I was just curious if he would be willing to put together a larger package for those of us who would like 150+hp that one of the 2270 or 2317 kits would provide. And since the website said the kit goes together easily, then i didnt think think it was an issue until Jake said that only experienced ppl should put this kit together (this was after i asked if Mark had thought about it).

My other point was, if these larger kits are so difficult to just assemble (i can only assume the machine work is included with the kit) then if anything failed, would you need to be a master mechanic to repair? Specialty parts and price for maintaining would then even out between the supposedly more expensive /6.

I understand the price difference about a conversion, but, once its done you dont have to do it again. You can even start out with a 2.4 /6 (even in T trim is 140hp) and find one for about $2500-3000. Possible full rebuild (which would probably change to E, S, or even 2.5) might be around 8000. So, for around 9-11,000 bucks you have a reliable engine with power and that you can probably work on and not be considered a 3yr old with a handgrenade.

Ok, was a long post, i just wanted to know if Mark was able to look at a bigger kit for some who would like an option for more power without going /6 (and not having to pay 12,000+ whatever MIGHT be added later plus a estimated 10month wait.) That was all. If Jake says Mark cant put the 2317 together for about $3200, then i guess the /6 rebuild costs might be closer than one thinks.

As far as adding a 2270 to my line-up: Jake and I have talked about it. But decided that it was best left for the future. If things go well with our relationship and the 2056/1911 engines are selling well then we might add a 2270 or 2316 to the line-up. Right now I'm very content with how things are going. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.

Pertaining to me building larger motors: I am available for this and it will be handled on a case by case basis. If you're interested in this contact me privately and we'll talk about what it's going to take. There is a lot more checking and measuring to be done on a 2270 build. So it wouldn't be as easy as taking the labor price of a 2056 and tacking it onto a 2270 kit price. Again, if you're interested in this, I'm willing to talk it over via PM/email.

Cant argue with that. Once again, thnx for the service you are providing to this community McMark. Just a bump this time for a great option for Teeners.

Sure Mark can build a 2270 or 2316 with my kit easily, heck I have had a 15 year old do it with no adult assistance!

I HAVE to be more of a player with the bigger engines and I won't stand for them to be assembled in anything less than 100% complete status due to the impacts that parts selection has on their performance.

When a customer buys a kit from me 2270cc or larger I mandate certain parts to be used to attain the primary objective of the baseline engine I created the kit from- it's called being comprehensive.

The biggest nightmare for me (and Mark) would be an individual that gets a 2316 engine as a longblock from Mark based on my kit and installs restrictive exhaust, huge carbs and screws the tuning up. This engine will more than likely be absolutely un-tunable, run like shit and run hot while getting about 10 MPG. This person would then mis-inform pople that this was a "Raby engine" when it was not and I would catch flack.

attaining my reputation was not easy and retaining it is even more difficult. I have to take every step known to man to hold individuals hands through kit processes to keep negative things from happening like this.

Now, with the mandate of 2270 and 2316cc engines being built complete by Mark it will throw them right into the same category as my engines in the cost department- so you may as well buy it from me and get the added benefits.
there is much more to this than you guys see on the outside, and it's not as easy as "Making it simple and cheap for the buyer".

If it was about simple and cheap I'd be building nothing but longblocks, doing 4X as many engines per year and not giving a damn about them when they left.
Thats not the case.

Time for the $5K

I just put my name on the dotted line. Now I just need to finish everything and make sure the car is ready when Mark is done with his magic.

Thanks Mark!

Looks like a great mid range power option. Just for the record, and believe me I found out the hard way, there is nothing "cheap" about a V8 / V6 option. I've only heard of one person that got it done for the cost of the kit being offered, and that isn't counting dollar one for labor which is SUBSTANTIALLY more than this option.

I'm willing to open my wallet if you are willing to take payments. LOL. After all I'm 19 w/ more bills than the average person ehhhhh that's and understatement at that.

Depends on the size of the payments. PM me.

Mark,

I have a few questions:

Will the 2056 use the next gen heads from Jake? If so, what do those do to the output? If not, what heads do you use?

Does the engine or kit come with new tin? If not, can stock 1.7 tin be used or modified? If not, what is the cost of replacement tin?

I bought some weber 44s from a member. Can those be used with the 2056? If so, what jets, etc.. are needed? If not, what are the alternatives?

Thanks in advance for your help with this.

- Joe

I rebuild the heads you send me. I'm talking with Jake to see about offering the new heads. I can already see why he's not rebuilding heads anymore. It's a PITA to do right and a ton of work. 1.8 heads will work fine, 2.0 heads will work fine, either one is rebuilt, welded if necessary, and all new parts put in.



These engines are only a long block. So I build the engine, but nothing is bolted to it. So tin is not included. 1.7 tin is necessary if you send 1.7, 1.8 or bus 2.0 heads. 2.0 tin is necessary if you go with 914 2.0 heads. 1.7 tin can be modified, but you pay me my standard shop rate for the work. Replacement tin would need to be sourced by you. The only tin pieces I need from you are the ones that go under the heads. Those must be installed before the pushrods and can't be installed once everything is buttoned up.



I have all the jetting information for carburetors. 44s will work fine (I previously thought that 44s were a little large, but have since been corrected).

Thanks for the response Mark. I have a few follow up questions:



From the article in Hot VWs and talking to Jake, it seems that the new heads are the way to go. From what Jake said, price wise, its a better deal for the new heads as the costs to fix old ones is about the same as the new ones, assuming you needed to buy new heads. If this is the case, then how does the performance of the 2056 change with the new heads? How different, if any, is the cost?


New question:

What parts are needed from a 1.7 or 1.8 motor for the 2056? I think I have read that the 1.7 rockers are used, but what else?

Thanks for answering these questions, I am a few months from being in a position to order a motor, but we'll see how this year goes.

Thanks again,
Joe

Hi Joe,
Just as an FYI, I will have my 5k engine running by then & you can check it out if you want (I’ve already had a few people down here ask to see it when ready). If everything goes how I’m hoping, I expect this engine to fit my needs perfectly.

As for the extra/core parts you’ll need, when all is said and done I can point you in the right direction if you are interested (learning from my trial & error).

Bill

Thanks Bill. I will certainly take you up on that offer.

The new heads are definitely an option. I still need to get exact pricing, but I think the engine with new heads would be around $6000. The heads at this price point are basically 914 2.0 head replicas. So I expect power would be about the same, maybe a small gain. I haven't gotten numbers from Jake yet, so I don't know for sure.

I've learned as I've built this first batch of motors that aside from the cores listed in the first post of this thread (check that out) I need the following items to be reused on your motor.
__ Case
__ Taco Plate + O-Ring
__ Oil Filter Console
__ Oil Bypass Springs/Pistons
__ Drain Plug
__ Distributor Drive Gear + Special Washer
__ Under Cylinder Engine Tin
__ Oil Cooler
__ Oil Cooler Thick Washers
__ Fan Mount + Bolts
__ Oil Baffle + Seals (OPTIONAL)
__ Oil Pressure Switch OR Pressure Sender
__ Oil Filler + Bail
__ Head Nuts + Washers
__ Through Bolts
__ Oil Pickup
__ Sump Cover
__ Endplay Shims
__ Distributor Clamp
__ Valve Covers + Bails
__ Rocker Shafts
__ Rocker Shaft Mounts

This has been a huge endeavor for me and has taken awhile to get figured out. As future orders come in, things will get much more smooth. My first customers have been very patient and I thank them immensely.