let me guess...Mine?



Who says I'm normal?



Uhh, Sir...Where have you been? that's who WE are!!


Ya gotta love me!!!
KT

no we dont.

i once heard a great analogy....

you can lead a horse to water...... and if the horse dont drink.. you send it to the glue factory....

Oh... is that where this is going?


KT

just some funny humor for this thread

Time for some of us to take a - how to convey your message politely - class.



All better now.

BTW - Trekkor - I really like your car.

Thanks, it's been a great ride!!


KT

Uh Trek, why is everybody in front of you in that picture?



You getting ready to lap them?

I have stayed out of this whole thing because I felt it was absurd in the manner that it was handled by several people, but......

I have many years of racing under my belt.....I have seen shit break that I thought would never break under the intense stresses of racing.

This all boils down to the amount of "contact patch" that the fastener makes with the seat hole. The ball has "full contact" with the commensurate seat hole in the wheel, whereas the cone only has partial contact with the seat hole. The stress you will see in racing is not distributed correctly.

While it will work, it has the potential of pulling through the seat over a period of time as only a small area of the seat in the wheel is stressed and metal will FATIGUE under stress. The full contact of the ball type distributes the stress over a much larger area and reduces the fatigue.

Secondly, the mismatch of fastner vs seat hole can cause a wheel vibration at speed. The fastener is used to center the wheel along the horizontal axis of the axle. Any deviation of this centering will cause the wheel to rotate out of sync with the axle (or stub axle before you attack me). For a period of time, it will center correctly. As the metal fatigues and starts to move from it's original position, it will no longer center correctly. High speed vibration can be very unnerving.

So, in the end, it is a matter of do what you wish. That said, the engineers that designed the mating surfaces had something in mind....that is all you have to think about...."Why is it designed that way?"

I can't tell you how long it will take for all of the bad scenerios to take place. You could race the rest of your life and never have a problem...then again, it could be the next time out. It will happen someday.

Trekkor, I think you are just having to much fun with this and I like your innovation in doing things....you are a true "glory days racer (60s) when everyone was trying anything....unfortunately, a lot of them died when the innovation didn't pan out as planned.



BTW, when I started playing with racing, I spent many hours in the library reading everything I could get my hands on about constructing. Being a nerd, I wanted to understand the "why" and not just copy what someone else had done. I figured that by understanding the "why" maybe, just maybe, I could come up with something they had missed. No one in racing that is winning is gonna tell you shit....they may provide hints, but they ain't gonna tell you how until they quit and you are no longer a potential threat.

Cool. Your safe. I see 3mm's before the cone nut goes THROUGH the hole. You should be able to run these off and on the car 10-12 more times before the nut is not holding the wheel on the car.

Something that will make you mad over the next 10-12 times of wheel/tire removal: unless you weld those studs on the back.. NO loctite will hold them in the hub. The front hub expands so much under high heat that the studs will start coming out with the nut during removal.

Trek,

dude when you posted you were going to put some unknown 911 engine out of a rail into your 914 I just gave you my personal experience. I put an old 911 engine of unknown condition in my 914 and I ended up needing to rebuild it. I was prepared for that, I just suggested you should be too. It worked out for you, it didn't for me. They are old engines. Sometimes you get the elevator and sometimes you get the shaft. Not that I got the shaft on my motor since I got it cheap, but anyway.........
Look, your VW wheels, in fact all aircooled VW wheels, are designed to use ball seat lugs. You can still exchange your cones for balls right? I see no advantage to using cones on your ball seat rims just because the cones have worn into the rims vs using the ball seat lugs they were designed for eventhough the rims are worn by the cone seats. I mean if it somehow required hours and hours of work to use ball seat vs the cone seat like it would have taken hours and hours of work to go from a bar mount to a bulkhead mount on the motor mount I could understand your attitude that it hasn't broken yet, so it probably won't. It doesn't. It's quick and cheap to get the right lug nuts and you pull them off everytime you change tires.
As for the screw in studs, just recognize they can back out. I have seen them backout on a guy first hand. Was it because he was using thread in studs, or did he just forget to torque that wheel? Don't know. I do know he was running at a PCA autocross where they check everyone's lugs with a torque wrech set to 94 ft-lbs. It's possible his car somehow hot skipped. Everytime you change wheels use the allen wrench and make sure they are still fully threaded and tight. I good way to make sure they aren't moving is to mark them with a paint pen. Truckers and bus operators index their lug bolts with paint all the time. It works.
As for the lug bolts bottoming against the spacer, it depends on the spacer he is running. Some spacers have fairly large holes in them to all them to be used on varies bolt circles. You got to give this guy SOME credit. His car RUNS and he drives it a LOT. I respect that.

Kelly

Looks like the aluminum wheels have as well. And that's called "damaged wheels" in my book.

I don't have a good enough idea about the steel wheels to say anything yet. But I will say that I think you've done some real damage to your alloy wheels, and you need to keep a very very close eye on them to make sure they don't break on you.


BTW, one of my cars had the standard old Bug screw-in studs when I bought it. The rears were too short for proper bolt engagement, and the fronts started to pull out of the hub after a few years. They also used "cone-to-ball" adaptors on the lug nuts.

After living with them a few years and having the above problems (and a few others!), I decided they were a Bad Thing. I don't know if these are the same as the ones I had or not--hopefully not, for your sake.

--DD

I'll show the rims to Stasis. It looks like the mating surface on the steelies will still accept the ball.

I will weld the studs in.


KT

I posted a comment about you in the admin area. I decided to post it here also:

I dont want to see you hurt. Bottom line. Pride aside.

Your well being and health are very important to the "well being and health of this site".

Andy's health scare has me freaked out. I dont need another friend "taking chances". Just taking a car to the track is scary enough. Being safe is of utmost importance.

I'm sorry for my "dumbass" comment. It was unprofessional and showed serious amounts of leadership flaws. I hope you accept my apology. Most of these people dont know that I know you personally and that we typically speak once every 2 weeks or so, because of this I came off as a piece of shit.

This doesnt make the studs any safer, but I should have kept my opinion to myself.

To be honest I havent read every post in the last 6 pages, but I have kept up with lots of Trekkor's "modifications". I suppose my opinions on Trekkor's modifications are in the majority, but I resent the hell out of this statement. Like Brad said, there are people on this board with LOTS more experience then you, and people that do this shit for a living! If you're going to not take our advice, then fine. But for you to be stubborn about it and think you're right only because you have experience (hah), you're just trying to piss people off.

For instance the brake cooler thread. You had like 3 professional engineers and maybe a half dozen guys that have worked on real race cars (HPDE and PCA DE events are NOT races) telling you why it doesnt work and you just say you think it works. You're just too hard headed to listen to people and let them shoot your ideas down. The one thing I've learned in my years experience in professional racing; I dont know SHIT. But trust me, if you go in with that attitude, you'll learn a LOT more.

KT the last set of pics you posted of your red wheels shows me that you are contacting the very inside edge of the lug hole. (shinywear spot)
the less shiny area on the outer edge looks like sand blast or something. but not contacted bya lug nut.

Being a redneck I'll just leave the name calling out. this is just what I see.

i wasn't aware that there were different engagement shapes until it was pointed out to me by some guys on this site. THANK GOODNESS because i don't know shit, but i'm learning.

safety is #1. Safety is #1. Safety is #1. Safety is #1. Safety is #1.

Maybe I am the only one that has any real world experience to share about this or maybe I just missed it.

Three months ago I was corner working a Time Trial at Talledega Gran Prix. A member of my local club just bought another DSR. This car was a newer design than his old open wheel car. George was out on track for his 2nd lap of the run and at the end of the straight away wight in front of me his rear wheel came off and he spun off course at top speed.

I red flagged the session and went to make sure the driver was unhurt. When I got to the car and made sure George was OK, I started looking over the car.

The rear hubs are from a VW Rabbit. Remember they use the same type of lug bolt arrangements as our cars. The previous owner of George's car had put screw in studs in the hubs and tack welded them in from the back side.

When I looked closely at the hubs you could see the studs had pulled all of the threads from the hubs. Screw in studs are not the best way to go.

You could pick up some other trailing arms and some more front rotors and have them studded for very little money. I would cost you a touch more than the studs cost you.

There is nothing in the GCR about the wheel studs and the type of fasteners used to hold the wheels on to the car.

Now in Trekkors defense, he probably checks his wheels more than needs to and that may be the only thing that keeps him from having a major problem.

Let me reveal my ignorance....or maybe not...

If the screw in studs are so bad....and I am sure there are many different ones made as like the BBS racing studs....

Why don't we have the same types of problems being described with screw in studs with our lowly lugbolts?

dont' they screw into the hub and then the ball seat is torqued down on the corresponding seat on the wheel.

What is different with the same procedure being done with the screw portion and the ball seat section being separate? As in the screw in studs and propper lug nuts.



I am talking about using high quality screw in studs (BBS or equivilent), not the VW allen wrench install stuff.

It all goes back to an engineering term know as "...sound enginering practices". There are three ways to mount a wheel to a hub..

1. Threading a stud into a base plate (hub) than threading a nut on to that stud.

2. A fixed stud on the hub with a nut.

3. A bolt with a head threaded to the hub.

#1 is the less favorable means of attachment. Twice as many threads, twice as many chances to come loose.

#2 and #3 are the more favorable means of attachment.

The nuts or bolts must be torqued to the same setting. You have to "pull" each stud on the hub to the same degree or you are not holding the wheel to the hub equally. A wheel with three nuts of the four nuts torqued to the same setting might as well only have three studs because the fourth one is just a long for the ride. Now multiply this 2X for screw in studs. The stud must be torqued in to the hub than the nut torqued to the stud. A stud which is loose in the hub will not be "made tight" by torquing the nut to it.

Bottom line is the best/safest/strongest means of attachment is to use an assembly which has the least chances of coming loose. This is a "sound engineering pratice".

Thanks, Brad. apology accepted

Matt, my statement is true.
What's the problem?

I take my wheels off and on all the time. ( sometimes many times in one day ) Most people don't.
And my brake cooler ducts actually work.
Why does this bother you?



Easy, big guy, I thought you read the thread
Matt, the studs and cone nuts are still in a plastic bag. Not installed.
I will take them to Stasis tomorrow and make sure I'm using the "right" ones and weld the studs into the hubs after tightening them in if I use them at all.



Is there something wrong with the studs from Stasis? ( allen thread in type )


KT

Yes Joe, the current lugs I've been using ( the security style pictured way back when ) are too small a diameter and have always worryed me.

I have been checking them. They stay tight and are nowhere near pulling through.

I guess worst case scenario is I call HPH in ther morning and ask for a set of short lug bolts for steelies. This would satisfy everyone including myself. I just want studs because of how often I change the wheels and I want to run spacers.


KT

why not use press in studs on your rear hubs, and press in studs on your front rotor?

I may do that on the next set of rotors.

I don't want to take the car apart right now.

If I take Matt's and other's advice and tack weld the thread-in studs into the hubs, won't I be OK?


KT

There is something to think about:

A stud is a better solution than the bolt. The stud is only loaded in one direction where as the bolt is loaded in two or more so in some cases a stud is much better solution. Look at cylinder head bolts versus studs.

Run 2.0 lug bolts. They are plenty long enough to go through a steel wheel and 1/4 spacer. They are even fine with 1/4 inch on front alloy wheels. They will NOT however work safely on the rear with alloys and 1/4 spacer.

There are 3 lug bolts you can use. VW bug/914 Steel wheel/Alloy

Each one gets progressively longer from VW-Alloy

The stud material is junk. The Verbus studs are made from a stronger material.


B

Help me to better understand why these studs are junk.

Do they break, strip, gall up?

thanks


KT

Oh and BTW, do you have a set you can give/loan me?


KT

They do everything you listed. They are designed to convert a ball socket car to a cone socket car so you can run aftermarket wheels. They where never designed to be a "race stud"

If I had the Verbus screw in's we would'nt be having this discussion. I would have already shipped them to you. The Verbus is what Porsche the factory sourced for ALL Porsches with studs. BBS is the one offering a screw in GOOD stud. The same ones Dan is running.


B

Don't take this reply as a fight, but I stated that they offered me cone or ball and I mistakenly requested the cones.

Also the racecars they prep run them. These are for racing.
Full sized Audi production track cars.

I'll attempt some spy shots in their shop in the morning.
Pics are on their website as well...

I want to be safe. Please believe that.
I have never crashed a car. I never want to.

Thanks for your help.


KT

No fight. Just a quick observation:



It wasnt until the last 6 years that Audi's started really racing here again in states (after almost a 20 year hiatus) How much real world experience can you get out of say 8 years? I have no idea how long they have been racing the Audi's, but I question what ORG they are running with?


B

Oh.. did you physically observe these being used on their track cars? or was this a counter jockey telling you they used them?

B

I looked it up. They are running the Speed Touring Car challenge. Total pro shop. I would find it VERY hard to beleive they had these on any of their Speed TCC cars.

The sales/shop manager walked me past one of those prepped cars that was in the building on the way to the parts bins.

I asked him about the install and he showed me a hub assembly that he said was from one of the cars.

These guys don't do much "walk-in" sales from what I can see.
Mostly mail.

The only reason I even found their shop was from asking around down at the shops for a store that sells the studs.

Brits has moved and "McGee's" ( racecar prep shop ) pointed me to Stasis.

Stassis next door from AIM tire and a few doors down from Flyng Lizards race team's shop.

Did I tell you how much I like living near to Sears?


KT

http://www.audiworld.com/news/02/092502b/content.shtml

http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/030306/content.shtml

Gotta go to work now


KT

Well???

URY already made a comment on this....but here is mine.



Screw in studs will bottom out...you can keep them there with locktite, elephant snot or virgin wood sap.....but the stuff is gonna get hot....plus over time, the R&R of the nuts will pull the studs out...bit by bit....

HOT is what you use when you want locktite and virgin wood sap to release....what else do you use along with HEAT? Torque......

A STEEL BACKING which is PART of the stud is LESS likely to pull through the hole when doing warp factor fucking nine thru a turn.....spot welding, glue, a piece of the virgin Mary's burial shroud ain't gonna help.

Geeez...I can't believe this fucking thread is STILL going....oh yeah..."I'm the Asshole" that reopened it....

Does it matter that this subject is stil being discussed?


Oh, and by the way I don't agree with your assesment.

If the studs remain torqued properly and are checked at regular intervals...I don't see any reason why the proper studs used with the proper lugs will give you any more problems than normal studs/lugs or lug bolts....

Trek,

you didnt say anything today on the phone with me about them showing you the hubs that they had removed Did you see them on a race car with numbers?

When will we discuss the hub centric issue and how the load on YOUR studs is different than the load on a Audi car with the same studs

Calling him out with info I know he has.


B

Dan...how do you know if the stud is STILL seated at the bottom? Are you going to take a micrometer to each stud after each tire pull to see how tall they are from the surface of the hat?

I don't know about you....but MOST racing venues are HOT MOFOS....changing tires sucks....the LAST thing I'm gonna do is pull my nerd bucket out and fire up my calipers....

What is considered safe, what is considered outside of parameters?

MY personal feeling is that VW/Porsche and BMW were going on the cheap when they used lug bolts instead of studs and nuts....a friend of mine has a high end Beemer and was doing his brakes and I saw no studs sticking out from the discs...I almost shit when I saw lug bolts on the ground....even stoned on acid/MD 20-20 and living in the 70s with a lowered VW ragtop I thought it was a stoopid idea for a STREET car....

THEN you want to ADD a free wheeling NUT, to a stud without a backing with GLUE in a RACING environment?

PLEASE put me in your will....

Sorry, not wanting to get folks wound up again....My studs are all marked with red paint, so I can see each time I remove the wheels if the studs are still seated properly...

As for my will, I don't know you well enough to put you in my will

Remember what I do is not racing...it is DE/TT/AX a little different than wheel to wheel....no red mist.....

Paint flakes...which is a description of more than a few members here at the club....ME INCLUDED....

I'm not wound up...just bored and sitting in a Hotel room in Berkeley pounding the keyboard while doing bills that the wife says is MY job....

Wheel studs are a pet peeve of mine.....threading the HUB and using lug bolts OR studs is plain stoopid.....press in studs BEHIND the hub with nuts is much better in my mind.

But hey....do what ya wanna do.

WTF are you doing up in Berkeley again? Check in on Andy for us, will ya?

Jen

OK...Here I am!

Long hot day today in Sonoma 108°, yow!!

I went to Stasis and asked the sales manager to look ant my Steelie rims.
After showing him the lug I had been using he recommende the cone nut.
I asked to see a ball lug nut for comparison. It was easy to see that neither would *ever* pull through the rim opening.

I took some spy shots of their racecar.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

screw in studs!!

I didn't exchange for the ball lugs.


KT

HELLO???

Front engine water pumper......




Waiting for you...yer LATE....wassa matta can't find a parking space?

I then moved to shop after shop with my sad tale

I got lots of answers. Ball, cone, don't use studs, don't use steelies, go five lug, press in studs etc...


Bottom line is this, Nathan is going to "loan" me his ball seat bolts until I...Get this...

Use the safest set-up I can find...

The thread in's would likely work fine. I'd just be stressed out all the time worrying about them. I can't do that to myself....So I'll...

And I thank all of you for sticking with me here...



oh, yeah.





Drum roll please....







Hi guys....






Did I mention it was hot today?














PRESSED IN STUDS!!


thanks again...



KT

Ironically, the car my buddy bought over the weekend has screw in studs. We didn;t find this out until we took the wheels off to bleed the brakes.

Glad you found some replacement bolts Trekkor. I searched this afternoon and I only have 8 spares I can find.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen concludes our story of Studs, Nuts and Bolts.

Tune in tomorrow for our next story:

Which is Faster: Two coats of wax or one

Drive Safe.