I found a shop out at Sears, Stasis Engineering, that sells 14x1.5 thread-in wheel studs.

Only $68.96 for 16 studs and lug nuts!!

Install is allen wrench and red Loctite. Massive torque or special tools not required.

These are the same units used on the Stasis sponsored Audi racecars that run in the Speedvision series.

days of two-handed two-footed wheel changes are over!!

(888)9-stasis
http://www.stasisengineering.com

I'm using the longer ones.

BTW, they also sell the ball seat style lug nuts if you choose to run those.

KT

Trekkor are those nuts for your Steelies?
good choice for steel wheels just not Porsche Alloys. But I bet you knew that.

i believe those are the ones that mueller had problems with and decided *not* to use them ...

they sure look the same ...
Andy

Yes these are for my steelies, and anything else that may come my way.
The "guy" said these are the after market lug nuts for "all the popular wheels".



These are on race winning cars *right now*...It'll be OK.
I hope Mueller worked things out.


KT

WELD them in.

Are you serious?

KT

Those lugnuts in the picture are NOT for Porsche or VW (or Audi, for that matter) wheels. Including "steelies". Note the distinct lack of a "ball" seating surface. You've been had, Dude.

The Cap'n

i think the studs will be fine, but i share the same concern over the nuts as the Cap'n. you need a ball-seat trek -- not a cone (as pictured).

Run away Joe Bob, run.......

Hell yes I am. How do you break free something that's been loctite'd? Heat it up.

How hot do your wheels and hubs get on a big track? Wheel, say goodbye to hub and car.

Maybe if these were press-in (like 911 studs) or had a flanged backing, but you just thread them in. Not to mention the nuts aren't proper. Well, they'd be maybe OK with steelies, but with aluminum wheels (forged or not) expect to crack the seating surface of the lug nut on the wheel.

Bad move. Look how much (or how little) is threaded in the hub.

Get some real studs, press them in from the back and tack them on the hub.

I'm using real long studs from MOROSO with McGard lug nuts.

he's got 20mm of thread engagement into the hub. that seems 'enough' to me.

forgive the dumb question but how would this setup be any more prone to backing out than a standard lugbolt? Isn't the locktite just to ensure the nut moves on the stud instead of the stud moving in the hub?

Steve has it right. These are no more likely to back out than your lug bolt. The loctite is just there to keep it from coming out when you remove the lug nut.

With that said, it is important to inspect each time you remove the wheels that the studs have not backed out during the nut removal process, but that is quick and simple to do because of the non-threaded area on the stud making a backing-out stud very obvious.

As to thread engagement, as long as the threads engage through all of the threads in the hub/rotor, additional threads are of no use.

Some of you 'experts' need to think before you type.

But that is the wrong lug nut for Porsche wheels (ball vs cone). But Trekkor doesn't have Porsche wheels, so there is the chance that his wheels are made for cone lug nuts. If not, then he will need to pick up a set of Porsche lug nuts to go with the studs.

Demick

Would you rather have only a stud threaded in to the hub or a stud with a flange on the base of it and tacked on to the hub? When I torque my lug nuts down I don't worry about the stud pulling out of the hub.

But hey I'm no "expert" I just know when there is a better way to do things...

Of course, I should probably state for the record that press in studs are stronger and safer and are a better choice for a racing application.

I'm just saying that a high quality thread-in stud like this used properly is no worse than the stock lug bolt solution.

Demick

Edit: Paul beat me to my additional response

Here are the lugs I've been using.

BTW, steelies are VW wheels, remember?

Welding might be a good I as my rotors get to 500° plus every session.
Above 500° on my pyrometer I just get "---". That's what I get in the paddock.
I wonder how hot they are in the last turn before the cool down laps?


KT

Those cone surfaces seem to have a good pattern on them from contacting the lug hole.
Good for your steelies. What other wheel are you using?

So who has a ream I can borrow? I need to install my studs into front hubs.

and who has a line on Centerline lugnuts? I broke one some how.

Riviera's on the street. get the ones on the left. ( with the security pattern. )
Nathan you run these same ones, too, don't you?

Western's on the a/x. get the one on the right.

They offered the ball seat style at Stasis. What do those do?

BTW, I have always cranked my lugs to 100 ft/pnds instead of the 94 for Porsche.

No cracked wheels and no loose lugs.

Did I mention they run these studs on their racecars?



KT

porsche wheels are a Ball seat... so using a cone on a ball seat will give you very limited engagement in the seat area....

prolly messes up your wheel seat. i bet at a minimum, the rivieras use a ball seat....


does anyone else find it hilarious that you have security lugs on rivieras?

i'm *pretty* darn sure that you need the ball-seat for ALL stock-914 wheels: Steelies, mahles, fuchs, etc....

some aftermarket wheels take a cone (mine do).

Yep, I'm pretty sure you've been using the wrong lug bolts Trekkor. Just look at the holes in your wheels - is the area where the lug bolt seats conical just like your lug nuts or is it cylindrical shaped (looks like a good fit for a ball if you dropped it in the hole). I think you will find the cylindrical shape on all of your wheels - not the cone shape.

Demick

is it hemispherical or cylindrical? just a nomenclature hiccup on my part

trek, i run those same 'security' cone-seat gorrilaz lug-bolts on my 3-piece rims, which take the cone.

on my street Riv's, i run the stock ball seat. it really is a safety issue -- particularly on alloy wheels.

just take back the nuts, get some ball-seats instead, and call it a day. those studs will work fine (i assume they're hardened, high quality). they won't back out at 500 deg any more than a lug bolt would.

the guys at Stasis seem pretty sharp -- i told you I raced karts a few times against one of their engineers when Chip Herr was campaining their touring car (i think he's racing for the airforce team now; not sure). you may double check that these are high quality, hardened items when you return the nuts, but i have a hard time believing they'd sell you junk.

n

Once it is torqued I need to know how it can come loose.

Anyway, Stasis has these if you want to use them.

Oh, and they're cheap. And...they run them on their...Oh nevermind.


KT

it may not come loose... but it is damaging the seat area on the wheel.....

\ / vs (

designed for maximum engagement, and what keeps the wheel torqued? the surface area of SEAT of the lug into the shoulder of the wheel....

right?

you wouldnt use a basic hex head bolt would you?

BTW - i may have some spare 911 beater lugnuts (aluminum closed end) if you are interested

I'm going out to look at my wheels...


KT

do they run them on a 4-lug 914? no, well then ...

some people learn from other people's experience, others .... don't ...

i'm not saying don't run the studs. i'm not saying don't run the nuts.

i'm saying "listen" to the people that have dealt with these before and you might learn something ...

what'ch'ya got to lose to ask mueller exactly what his problems with those were? pride?

listening is not one of your strong points, is it?
Andy

I'm a doer. I do things.
I take on projects and I make them happen.
I enjoy what I do and will continue to do so...


I took pictures of my wheels.

Click to view attachment
Pedrini

Click to view attachment
Western

Click to view attachment
steelie

Click to view attachment
Riviera

From these pics you can see that the cone style lug has seated nicely.

If my "wrong" cones have never come loose, why all of a sudden am I a risk to myself and others with cones on studs?

Honestly...


KT

they werent designed for cones... (mahles, fuchs, pedrini's steelies)

dont know why we are arguing this?

it may not have come loose, but it definitely ISNT right.

Yep....them thar pics are holes.....

The biggest issue that "I" have..."The Andante" sells them on evilBay....to me that's like buying stuff from Patrick Motorsports....

You can torque anything down tight...but if it doesn't have a good mating surface or the proper amount of turns it will have a greater propensity to work itself loose.

When it comes to safety....I tend to do it with a higher margin than..."hey it werks/fits/it ain't broke yet".....

Studs without backing or not spot welded.....WILL work out eventually. Lug nuts/bolts....I've had too many cheesy ones get loose from DAPO installs......

The 914/6 conversion I bought....a few years ago, was purported to be street ready...it had those cheesy studs WITH spacers and closed headed nuts....

When I pulled it apart, I found it had three turns on each stud on the rear wheels......Hergesheimer down in the OC....buncha clowns.

As such...all my rides have open headed nuts and studs with backing plates....the studs stick out past the top of the nuts.

the pic of the westerns look a bit marred up (though i can't tell what type seat that is from the pic), while the pic of the steelies shows that you could get more seat on the wheel.

I really think you want ball-seat lugs, trek. you'll get more surface area on the wheel, which is inherently safer. the cost is negligible, so why not?

Trekkor,

I am using BBS screw in studs on my car....I needed to do this because of the spacers I am using front (3/4") and rear (1/2"). With the Mueller Billet front Hubs you can not use press in studs. So that is why I am using the screw in studs.

The BBS studs were not as cheap as the ones you purchased. I spent a little over $100 for my 16 studs.

Mine have been on the car for 2 TTs and one DE along with 3 AXs. Since I installed them with loctite and torqued them down They have not budged.

As long as you are using the correct lug nuts with the correct seating area for your wheels you will be fine.

I am using ball seat steel lug nuts that work on Porsche wheels. I have a set of Fuchs with DOT Rs and a set of 8 spoke empi looks with street Michelins.
Both of which use the ball seat.

My studs are the ones that are solid, no allen to tighten them...Have to be double nutted to torque into place. I am using these studs at the recommendation of Mike Mueller.

They are BMW racing units....18mm of engagement into the hubs front and rear then a clear area, then 52mm of stud.

I have checked torque before and after every event and have not had any loosening what so ever.

All my wheels have been "trained" to run cones.
If I go to balls ...

The wheels will need to re-form to seat them.


KT

you have all the right in the world to ignore the advice given to you here.

just don't comeback whining when stuff brakes ...

like the "oh so cheap" quick six motor mount of yours ...
Andy

PS: me personally, i'd make god damm sure i have the right lugnuts for my wheels. you know, the ones that actually have any kind of mating surface to the wheel ...
but what the heck, do as you please. i know you will ...

Both Sway-A Way and APR offer race studs, when only the best will do:

http://www.swayaway.com/VW%20frameset.htm

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

As for nuts, try these...

http://www.bumpernuts.com/index.html

Paul

"Seated nicely" That's NOT what I see, even in the pictures. Look at the steelie. The nut's WAY too far in. The Western is chewed. It all comes down to "contact patch". Listen to us, we're your friends. We give a shit if your wheels are damaged or come loose. Salesmen don't. The cone/vs. ball seat has come up many times before, and the answer is well known. Porsche wheels, all the OE ones, and most of the aftermarket ones, use a ball seat; other manufacturers use other types. You really need to step back from your pride and admit you're wrong. Hey, if I can do it, and I recently did, so can you.

As for the studs, they look just like the ones I buy for VW bugs. I get 'em from the tire store down the street. They're a buck fifty apiece. The Cap'n

just get some Dykem or similar product, apply to the seats, tighten all 4 lug nuts and remove the lug nuts, you should be able to see the surface where you have contact and where you do not.

I'm betting that company does not know about the BBS Racing studs...of course they might, but the lack of making enough profit might prevent them from selling/using them

Show me a "correct" lug nut...Anyone?

Andy, apparently you have issues that go much deeper than my selection of lug nuts.
Bringing up the bad welds on the PMS mount? please...

Care to enlighten me?
Movin' on here-

The picture I showed of the nut between two bolts are the one's that were given to me by America's Tire Company.
They provided them after seeing my wheels.
They sell wheels. They should know what works, Right?
Liability and such on the vehicles that leave the shop.
I only use the security bolt because of the shorter length.
Yes, the security bolt on the steelie looks to be a little small in diameter to me , too. I've always felt this way. However, it accepts a torque and never loosens. What more can you ask for?

If you tighten the bolt and it neven loosens on it's own...What's left.
Stasis sells the ball seat style as well.

This is not about pride. I can and will admit when I am wrong.
I'm just not convinced that these cone lug nuts are a problem for mounting my steel rims. Because they *never* loosen on their own.


KT

I'm surprised you've been getting past tech inspections with that. If I were a tech inspector, correct lug nuts/bolts would be on my list for sure.

Coming loose is not what I'd be worried about. I see two possible failures that could be caused by using cone seats on a ball seat wheel.

1. You're putting the ful torque on a very tiny area of metal, possibly overstressing it. Could be a good place for a crack to start.

2. Every time you torque the wheel down, you're wearing more of a cone shape into the wheel. On the thinner wheel, (steel) you don't have alot of material there. eventually it could wear to the point where the cone bottoms out on the hub or spacer, at which point you'd no longer be holding the wheel on tight. This could happen relatively quickly if you change wheels often (and it sounds like you do).

Oh, and America's tire company is just a FLAPS for wheels and tires, I wouldn't trust them.

So you are suggesting a/x or DE tech inspection should include removing a lug for inspection and then retorqing?


If Am's Tire Co was improperly mounting and causing wheel failures, breakage and accidents I think we'd of heard about that by now.

I've not heard of one instance.
These guys have more experience in *one* day mounting tires and wheels than most of us ever will.

Give the pros a little more credit.


KT

I can tell that's the wrong lug bolt, without removing it.

Have you ever been passed by your own wheel that was installed by "pros"? I have, and it sucks.

Also, when I was a kid, my parents bought new wheels at a different "pro" shop, and they didn't use the right lug nuts. They came loose and destroyed the wheels. My parents had to threaten a lawsuit before they would replace the wheels.

Everyone is capable of making mistakes, EVERYONE.

I'm going to dust off my molds for my fiberglass KoolAid cups.

if anything this thread has shown is that "if" (and I hope you don't) have a wheel failure due to improper parts, 100% of the blame will be on you...it's something you will have to live with if someone gets hurt.........

You said "They sell wheels. They should know what works, Right?"

I believe "SELL" is the operative word in this discussion. Think salesmen. Cash flow. Profit. Education. Job experience. Level of competence and knowledge to do the job. Think FLAPS counterperson.

Then think about what you said. Give it up. Buy the correct parts. It appears that the combined knowledge and experience of this list isn't gonna convince you, so take a "leap of faith" and shut us up.

BTW, have you measured the ID of the lug holes in your steelies? Checked them for roundness? When I worked tech for PCA LA region, a LONG time ago, ALL steel wheels were checked with a fixture before every event. Lotta failures.

This whole discussion , IMO, is NOT in any way a personal attack. It's an outpouring from your friends, many of whom have never met you, who CARE about you and your car.

The Cap'n

Sure, I'll play along.

Where is the pic of the ball lug nut?


Of course. The pros just do it less in their field of expertise.



You mean all the nuts loosening at the same time?
I check torque before each track day and then after the first session.

Andy says you have some bombshell of a story about how naughty these wheel studs are.
Do I have to ask you before you give it up or is it a secret?



No, I haven't. The last time i had a wheel come loose was 18 years ago at 3 a.m. in a '66 vw bug that we were test driving out on the back roads.
We forgot to torque them in our excitement.
When we brought it to a stop, one lug was still in, another was hangin' and we found the other two down the road.

First and last time...


KT