I have no problems with 3 runs. I grew up with 3 runs. The only time you need "more" runs is if the course is 1.3 miles long.. SD REGION PCA...LOL

Grant,

I need to do something with the car. If the car (we know it requires driver also) wins Parade.. I have a better chance of selling it later on.

You would be amazed at how little is in SteveN's 914 when it comes to suspension/setup. Dont forget: this is one of the old Reitmer's cars that Steve bought and cleaned up. It used to be white. I spent a lot of time under/around it. It is VERY old school. Had I stayed up north we would have updated some of the suspension goodies. He is on custom hand cut bushings and the such.. he could be even faster...



B

I agree too. The difference between my wife's new Mazda MX-5 and 914 is like night and day in AX events. I dont even have to worry about shifting the MX-5 it just happens. I have developed a bad habit of shifting early in the 914 just to make sure I'm in gear when I need power. Two big things I would change for AX 914 - easier shifting and power steering. While I'm certainly strong enouugh to turn the 914 too much effort has to be applied in some tough corners and transitions.

I haven't seen too many sophisticated dedicated 914 AX cars in all my years of being around them. Dwight Mitchell's very successful AX car was fairly straight forward too. The basic components I have always seen as being effective are good focus on weight reduction, short gears, LSD, responsive high out put T4, sticky race slicks, well buttoned down suspension.

I'd say Randals car is likely going to be a contender if the motor puts out anything over 160 HP. I dont think his car is overly sophisticated either. And then there is Smurf!

If Steve's car has has one major issue it has been power. That engine has always sounded sick to me at upper RPM range. Dont get me wrong its a fast car, but if youre going against a 3.8 liter dragster on an open course that coughing and wheezing T4 engine of his isnt going to overcome the huge power gap regardless of his stellar driving.

If you want your car to win Parade go hire a real good SCCA driver and let them drive the car a season. probably cheaper than spending a bunch on sophisticated stuff. Actually get Nathan to drive the car when he isnt driving the wheels off of shifter karts.

My face masks are better than yours... I think they would cover a TB! Yours only cover the nose. I remember during some dental work having my dentist pull the headphones off and ask me how I was. I said "fine... How are you?" I was so happy. Both he and the hygienist about rolled on the floor. Hard to believe such a happy gas can make a car so angry...

First time I ever saw Brad he was under Steves car at Stockton with strings setting up the suspension. I thought he was Steve until he said "no... I'm not Steve". Scary to think he could be even faster.

Grant, I think Steve has taken care of that problem at high RPM. I recall that too but something has changed this year and the car is evil fast now.

One of the last times I touched SteveN's car it had the coil wires being sucked into the fan..lol We secured them that day, but it doesnt mean it didnt cause an ignition issue that continued afterwards.

Great thread everyone.

Thank you for your time.

I'm going to start yanking the suspension out and getting it ready. I'll also measure for the tubing I need for the alum floors.

FYI: on gearing.. I'll be using a 9146 input shaft with the taller second gear. You can "and I highly suggest" launching the cars in second with the H pattern ready to go.

Damn.. what about a true 901 4 speed box with proper gears?? Ring gear flipped for mid-engine use?


B

I use a 'B' first gear (a C would be better). Very useful for the tight sections near the starts we often have....good to around 43/44 mph @7100.
2nd gear launches are too hard on the clutch, but feel free ....I use a GA 2nd (63/64 @ 7100).A good launch can get you a tenth or 2.

Since you seem to have all the answers, I'll not intrude on some of your other good ideas.

Yeah.. I hear you OLD MAN..

I am NOT an AutoX fan.. but I do think I can build a better car!!! ..lol



B

No, it is still not allowed by the rules. We have a very nice wet shot nitrous system ready to use which will give us another 30-40% more power, but it is specifically banned. We've been told we have to run in "fun" if we want to use nitrous. The same class people with subaru motors and people driving S2000s run in.

The system we have is perfectly safe for the car ( as well as people around/in it ), and we feel it's only fair that we get to use it when we're running against people with double our displacement and turbos to boot.

Why not do a single turbo?

I'd be worried about the bottle coming loose in a corner.

I'd also be concerned about the instant on power. I dont personally beleive it would be consistant.


B << drage raced a Mustang in Pro 5.0 with a 3 stage setup WAY back.

Several years ago a couple guys decided to add a little "pop"
(benzine, IIRC) to their Cheetah back when Bayview raceway was open.
It blew off both heads while they were hunkered over the SBC "tuning".
Kilt em' both.
Nitrous opens a can of worms. Get a motor.

If you're going to forced aspiration, I'd go with a supercharger, turbo lag can suck in an autox. By the time the boost comes on, you're on the brakes again.

-Josh2

Ok then, how about you putting in 10 sacks of cement to equalize your weight advantage.

I think thats a load of bullshit, in addition to irrelevant. N2O is an oxidiser, not an explosive gas. If I blow nitrous oxide onto a flame, the flame will go out. It is this level of general misunderstanding about these matters which is keeping us from being able to run it in the porsche club.

As for your "get a motor" comment, we're trying to run our car on a budget, it would cost $5000 to build a better motor, and a bottle of N2O is $20.

It opens a can of worms, but not for us, but for people like Jerry Woods.

A turbo sized correctly will not cause a lag issue. But then I run a turbo diesel and make 25 pounds of boast at 1900 rpm... On a gas engine it is a little harder, but can be done. If you need top end power then you can go with a sequential setup. Is NOS allowed, I know SCCA has it banned for Solo, and GRM also has it banned from their 2006 auto-x challenge, per SCCA Rules.

How much pressure is in a NOS bottle?

Sure, it keeps you from running it at SCCA, also.
If you can run Oxygen bearing fuels, then others can run Nitromethane, others can them fool around with stuff like Benzine. Does that make the link for you?
It ain't all about you....so quit whinnin'.

The whole point with N2O is that it promotes combustion....by adding oxygen.
The same thing it does in a combustion situation it does in any fire.
An oxygen rich environment makes everything it comes into contact with more combustible....
How do you think the Apollo astronauts died in the capsule during training. One spark in an oxygen rich(100%) environment.

Nitrous itself is not combustible but it promotes combustion by adding oxygen to the mix. Injecting compressed O2 into the intake would do the same thing but you would have to lug around a huge very heavy cylinder to get the same effect.

Yes it is a widely used HP enhancer....in drag racing and the "ricer" crowd.

Currnently do you guys really need it.

If you guys really want it, why didn't you propose a rules change?

Here is the current wording...
item #49) Select this option if the engine has any of the following:

The engine has any type of fluid or gas injection other than gasoline.

The engine has any type of total loss injection device used to cool the engine intake system.

The engine has any type of fuel mixing system used to add alternative fuel to the gasoline.

and there you go..

This has been my argument on N2O. It opens the door to Nitro and an Alcohol motor.

SCCA must have a pretty good reason they don't allow it.

Since there seems to be a lot of planning going on here, why noy a turbo diesel??!!

Porsche does not build a turbo diesel at least not yet. PCA requires a Porsche engine, now I suppose you could take one out of the tractor line, and turbo it. But they where never know for Power even in the day when they where produced.

We have a button we use on straights. We have plenty of power for the low speed sections, but when it gets to 3rd gear, it's hard to compete with people running 2 more liters than us.

The power increase is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent.



Something like 3,000 psi.



I don't think so. There could be a provision specifically for adding N2O to the engine. We would accept 500 mod points for it, we're already in the unlimited class.

I'm also curious as to your speak of "Benzine", just to make sure, you're not thinking of "Benzene"?

SCCA AX rules are as arbitrary as an impluse shopper in 7-11.

Damn it.. Grant making me laugh again!!




They dont allow Nitrous because they cant regulate it. I can run a 65second run and not like the outcome.. change the Nitrous jet and run 2 seconds faster next time out. It would be impossible to regulate.

As far as a 3000 psi bottle coming loose ... I'm not interested in "seeing" if it will be ok?? I have no issues with my fire extinguisher at 20lbs going off in the car if it comes loose. Drag cars load that bottle in two ways: acceleration and decel. A AutoX car would load it 4 ways.



B

I agree, that is the issue with NOS. Too much risk and can't regulate. Simple.

A Diesel Auto-x car can be done and is done in SCCA and NASA, kinda funny NASA don't have a base class for a TDI so you start with the gas boys. My local NASA group classed my car by asking whats the displacement. I say 1.9L , they say TTH I say cool and walk away. :-) 6 seconds faster than the Ford Focus Boys!!! It works extremly well on a tight course, but if you have one to streach your legs on a diesel will not be your choice unless you can pickup a new Audi R10 drivetrain, then lets talk, about bending the rules a little to get sister engines into PCA. ;-)

Brad i know this is a PCA beater thread (Sorry that sounds bad) but whatever

This is the kind of competition thats at national level.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-RX7-R...036672682QQrdZ1

600hp & 1900pounds.

Way out of most people's league.
That is a totally hand built car, WOW what a ride.

I know. We run against him here in SD (DUH!) He gets beat by a Corvette (driven by a lady) I dont actually think I have seen it do much of anything on our courses. His girlfriend typically drives it as the tire warmer.

I refused multiple times to "race" Spec Miata's.. I'm trying to stay away from running anything "Rice" related



B

Brad, what's with the 'tude about Spec Miatas? It's a great series, low cost, great competition, and they handle really really well... And bullet-proof to boot!

No, they aren't _fast_, but they sure are fun...

-Josh2

I'm over 6'1 and 200#'s. Every person who wanted to me to run enduro's with them or race with them was 5'5 and 160#'s..LOL

There is a reason why I jumped on the board of directors for the Boxster series. I knew the Pro7 series and the Spec Miata series were HIGHLY successful. I'm just a Porsche guy. I spent some time around them.

B

I bet Spec Solstice will be here in a couple years. Now that would be an interesting series. With the new GXP turbo Solstice coming out I think prices of base model should come down. Wont be long before you can pickup a $12 to $15K used Solstice.

Your first point seems to sound like it is banned because it makes cars perform better, which is the entire point.

Coming loose? Have you seen our mounting hardware? There is no chance of it coming loose, even if we managed to somehow find something to hit out on the course.

However if a bottle of nonexplosive gas mounted to the floor in two places is too dangerous for us to run at the autocross, we'll just have to live with that.

So if the top gets knocked off a 3000psi Nitrous bottle how long does it take to purge and give me some idea of the force it would have?

I think my nitrogen bottle that is clamped to my trailer is also 3000psi and it is a big bottle. I'm sure that huge heavy metal screw on cap isn't there for fun, but just what would happen if it was knocked off and are the metal clamps that I bought at the welding supply (welded to my trailer) good enough to hold it down?


Click to view attachment

I've seen a safety film of a welding bottle moving across the ground like a missile and hitting a pickup truck.

Also you may know how to secure that bottle to the car but what about the next guy or the tech guy that misses the loose bolts? Too much risk.

Can we get back on topic now???

Regarding NO2 bottles and SCCA events...

Having been a member of the National Solo Safety Committee for the last 7 years, this topic has come up a number of times. Now that I'm no longer on the SSC, I think I can talk about this without needing a disclaimer or anything... Okay... disclaimer: I'm not a member of the SSC, nor do I speak on behalf of the SCCA or any officials of the SCCA.

There a couple reasons for dissalowing NO2 at SCCA events.

The main reason is safety. It -is- a pressurised gas cylinder, and it -does- present a hazard as such. Have you seen what a 2000 psi bottle can do if the valve is sheared off? I have, it becomes an unguided missile...Yes, mounting hardware, heaters, check valves and all that can be regulated, but who is going to check all that? Tech inspectors at Solo events already have enough to think about, and for the 0.1% of drivers that show up with NO2, it's not worth the overhead to train the inspectors to make sure the system is safely designed and installed.

You've probably seen the pictures from the moron who installed a NOS system in his car with the heater blanket wired to a permantently hot circuit and promptly blew the rear end off his car while it sat in his garage (along with the garage door). This is obvioulsy a worst case scenario, but if an incident like that were to occur at an event, it becomes VERY visible, and VERY sticky (from a litigation standpoint). It's one thing if some unfortunate sap leaves a gas can in the trunk of their car and then goes out on course, breaks open the gas can, and combusts their car (saw it happen). It's another thing if a gas cylinder explodes in grid or in the paddock around people.

On course safety is, of course, the main issue. And most people who run NOS systems, run them for the Friday night drags. They aren't accustomed to the kick in the rear it can provide on a course where you actually have to TURN. This is a big concern for the safety of course workers. You may know what the NOS is capable of doing, and can manage it. But I would wager that >90% of people who run NO2 systems would be quite unprepared for its effects on an an autox course, especially if they trigger it in a turn and can't compensate. Course workers can run, but not as fast as a spinning camaro...

The risk to benefit ratio is too extreme. I don't think the SCCA is worried about dissenfranchising less than 1 out of 1000 potential drivers for the increased level of risk that NO2 systems present.

In my home region (probably one of the ten largest in the country), we have had -1- person in the last 8 years show up with Nitrous. He was asked to go home and come back without the bottle. He did so, and everyone was satisfied.

Secondly, the manditory rules dissalow any oxygen bearing additives that are not available from pump gas. This includes alchohol, nitrous, and other more extreme additives. All of these are power adders in one way or another, and are not legal in any class. If you allow NO2, do you then allow Nitromethane? Alchohol? Where do you draw the line then? The line is drawn at pump gas.

Okay, I've rambled on... Let's get this thread back on track and figure out how Brad is gonna build a TTOD winner at the parade...

Gotta add this (regarding the building of the super teener). Aero.

Nationals this year was the year of the wing. Door slammers at atuoxes are getting fast enough now that wings on full bodied cars actually have an impact. So start looking into some good aero for the car as well.

I love it when aero factors in. Now, when you get loose in a turn, you weren't too fast... you were too slow!!

-Josh2

See, I told you...

Alrighty than...what about this belly pan, Brad?

Details, I need details.

but I need the details of how it will produce downforce.

Can you run a none porsche engine to run your fans for the sucker car. I would hate to waste the HP from an engine designed to push my car, but to run another engine for the fans to suck it down to the ground. YOu have to run full body skirting, but you can ditch engine cooling fan at that point also. You would have to regulate air flow through the engine compartment and pickup intake air else where. Be no fun to have your sucker suck your intake dry.

Has PCA banned the sucker cars yet? I can't remember, its been a while since I read the rules for the M-classes.

I'm not famililar enough with the PCA rules, but if you're going for the all out unlimited TTOD car, can you make a sucker-car? Super low side skitrts and a secondary motor driving a sucker fan???

-Josh2

Get real: one car, one engine.

The belly pan doesn't produce downforce, it reduces drag.

Doesn't matter, rules don't allow it and the rules aren't changing anytime soon. Move on...

Nothing in the rules says you cant run multipule engines and trannies for that matter. AWD 2 engine 914 with 2 trannies, variable syncro throttle would allow for more power up front or to the rear depending on the turn, all controlled by computer and traction controll, etc........ Yeah you carry a 400 lbs weigh penality, but I just built you a hook up monster that would still be in hte ball park of a stockish 914-4 weight wise and over 400 hp to ~1100 depending on engines and tune. Being light is one thing a drag race through the cones like a PCA National requires some HP Paul your cage is easy to rattle today whats up

Yes the pan can be built to reduce drag, or if designed correctly can make downforce. If you run a spoiler and skirts How much air are you letting under there? My thoughts areo wise is to trim anything that disturbes the air flow, so its got to be smooth. The side turn signal pods should go the hood should be lowered, the windscreen racked, best would be just a small single screen in hte center. Section the front bumper, or don't even have one. ditch the targa bar, run a hop for roll over, skirt the rear wheels, Moon disc the fronts, it would look like a Bonnivlle salt racer for the cones. And a Huge Wing that would produce down force in a 1 knot breeze

New front suspesion, and rear suspension, ah heck just forget about the 914 chassis, tube it add a few piece that make it a 914.

Now all you need is a 90 pound horse jocky that can drive!!! Sorry but a 6'2" 250lbs man will not cut it except to be a tire warmer. Sorry Brad, I was talking about my self, your 6'1"

Why not have me show up with my little white car. It is about time for him to get put down a few notches.

sounds like you found at least a driver - if not a car

The little white 914/6, 1800 lbs., 385 hp on Jerry Wood's dyno, twin plug, MOTEC, crazy gray haired old guy driving it.

I'd go to the Parade if that happened!

You need a Co-driver to increase the odds of pulling it off. Plus woud it not be nicer to drop him a few extra spots?

So Otto brings the little white car Brad builds another, and Paul comes over from the Tampa to put the smack down.You guys could in theory drop him to 7th place overall.

Maybe we needed to make this a little more