:edit:

Wake me up next summer and I'll play.
I'll be doing the driving with a passenger who will verify "no lifting, braking, intentional bad lines or other cheating.


KT

To the original question...my 1.8l 914 is quick and fun. I drove a 3.2l motronic conversion and it was FAST!!!!! That is the big difference to me. It was FAST....and SOUNDED like a race car with that great six sound. Nothing like a high revving porsche six!

Now, to add to the cost bandwagon...cost is based on each persons individual approach. For me (had time)..i found a great 2 owner (I knew the 2nd owner) 84 carrera with 74k miles on it. Bought it for 9k and parted it out. I made 1k over what I paid and kept:

1. engine
2. tranny (915)
3. axles/cv's
4. dme/harness
5. tach and speedo
6. carrera front end
7. all 4 carrera brakes
8. threw the body weltmeister front sway bar

Now..I get to sell my 71 911 front end currently on the 914 and my spaced out front/rear 914 brakes (vented all around)..which will add to my positive cash flow. Only thing yet to buy then is oil tank, lines, engine mount, exhaust and whatever I need for either using my 901 or upgrading my 915 (which I might just do when I blow up the 901). So, with my patience I'll have a very cheap conversion with some very good kick ass parts!

Point...each person does it based on what they like, and each persons costs are based on their approach. Can be expensive...can be cheap. In either case 200hp in a 914 is FUN!

Oh and give me the option to buy the motor If I, "see the light"


KT

Jake, you might be saying that, but you know it's not entirely true. The six case is significantly stronger. More mains equals less load on the ones that are there and there is less crank flex.

When was the last time you heard people having major trouble with 911 heads dropping valves or seats?

I'll say no more...

Anyone who wants to work on the planning and logistics of the challenge I came up with can find me via email.

FYI- I have done a six conversion in the mid 90s... Thats when i realized how heavy those bastards really are.

Since this a shamless self promotion by Jake (not that there's anything wrong with that ), Id do it if there were something in for me. I'd have to reinstall 4 pooper engine mounts, do a couple engine swaps and a couple chassis dyno sessions....which is a fair amount of work.

The tests that Jake asks for are doable, but not easily scheduled....twice.
I got the stuff that seems to be needed.

I hope this is happening. If it does why not make it an event at the WCC 07? that way there lots of witnesses. We can even have some wagering on the side.

We'll have stories to tell our grandkids about the day of the showdown.

I want to see this.

Dave

From the torque curve charts for an SC or a 2316, how much different would they be on the track? The torque curves are very similar. Now the 4 would be lighter than the six - What would be proven? that a Raby 4 can keep up and stay together as a 3.0 would on the track? I would think that a 1/2 day on the track each - for sure they will stay together an perform.

I agree that something like this would be a great at a WCC event.

But, I don't see the merit of pitting a six against a four with the same hp/torque specs. The four that is 100 pounds lighter should always win.

Trekkor or Grant, how about you guys throw some street tires on your cars and we all do some acceleration tests after I get my 2270 installed. Randal could bring his 2316 along for another data point. We could do 5-60mph, 5-100mph, 30-70mph rolling tests. Finding a spot to hit 100mph might be kind of hard though.

so, have we decided which one is better yet? what did i miss?

i still would like to see someone weld two 1.7L motors together at the crank and make it a 3.4L flat /8 !!!
Andy

I'm serious about trying to make this happen. Trekkor's setup would be great, except one thing... it's a one driver only car.

I'm going to start looking at 'cheap sixes' and see about buying one just for the challengeto run in my black car. We can have a morning session with multiple drivers (Randal, Nathan, Trekkor, Grant, Brad, etc) and then swap the motor for an afternoon session. Anyone have a six lying around they'll 'rent' for the challenge?

This would be great fun at the WCC.

Doing it at an event would be great...

Let me know what I need to build power wise and I'll ship the entire assembly ready to drop in..

is right.

If you're going to build a full off T4 race motor then it's going to be expensive. You could buy a few 3.6's for the money in mine, but that's not the point.

Given that I will be taking this motor to the track - this one had to be built right. On a scale of 1-10 my best guess as to severity of motor use is that AutoX is below 5 and the track pushing 10, just simply from the viewpoint of time/load. .

As with any race motor, I could lose this one the first time out, but it won't be because we didn't use all the right stuff, as you can see by my sponsor list and put it together carefully and correctly. We’re also having the Link distributor, Performance Engineering, do the dyno work, given their familiarity with the Link injection setup.

FYI by Jake's standards my motor is a little one at 2.4 liters. In additional to an updated Raby Kit with a billet crank and LN Engineering cylinders, the motor will be running TWM throttle bodies, Link injection, a completely new wire harness together with all appropriate data access provisioning, all new electronics (Mallory) and Chris Foley headers and stub pipes (Yea Chris). And the head work on this motor is really pretty unbelievable, i.e., the nicest I’ve seen.

This is the little motor that could!

And of course there is substantial other stuff proprietary to the engine assembler that you’ll never see.

Again, building real race motors is not for the faint of heart. And if you seek independent confirmation go ask Rich Walton what it would cost to blue print a 3.6 for racing.

Next year should be fun with BPR running several different 914 / Boxster configurations. Who knows if everything works out maybe we’ll be able to answer the T4 vs. 6 question from our own stable.

Why did we build a T4? If you do the math and track results, one can come to the conclusion that a lightweight 914 with a strong 4 can be competitive.

interesting

Randal is right on point: race motors are different. you guys want to spend some money? race 2.0 sixes. THERE is some serious money (engine programs at over $100k/season; serious money for "amateur" racing). hell, i do a top-end rebuild on my kart every 1.5 hours. with next year's engine, it will probably be more like 45 or 60 minutes for every top end... my costs are not unreasonable, but it sustains my point that race engines are.... different.


Everyone is talking from their own point of views -- the street thrashers have a different sense of power, reliability and maintainence than do the track drivers (where reliability is primary) and the AXers (weight) and the w2w racers (ragged-edge power within the confines of strict rules).... that's fine, but i think we should be clear about the metrics by which we judge these things. This is exactly why a 4 vs 6 'shoot-out' is inherently problematic.

jake is fighting an uphill battle here. hi-power T-IV's have a reputation of being grenades on the track. regardless of the facts, the research, or Jake's talents, it may take a couple generations to change that impression. I'd love to see someone abuse a 200hp 914-4 track car for 4 or 5 years with only oil changes and the ocassional valve-adjustment. I'd be a believer at that point.

I'm used to it...
I prefer it that way...

I can build sixes, but they are no fun....

I suggested this the last time this subject got out of hand. With a displacement limitation of 2.2 liters or less, remember? So we have 2.2 liters or less with a budget of $5k? Normally aspirated. I have at least one six cylinder combination in mind

Obviously the type four is a great engine, and Jake is making it much, much better. I would think the limiting factor is utimately the valve train, isn't it? Isn't this one of the main reasons why Porsche went to the overhead cam engines?

The thought of doing A/B comparisons with a type four and flat six in the same car would be very cool.

Transmission gearing would be a factor though. I think it would be very difficult to have optimum gearing for the two different engines.

Thats really not the point here. Realistically no one is going to be able to make a 200 HP T4 conversion for $6000 after adding all the required conversion parts on a stock car. Then lets talk about whether a big T4 that makes 200 HP is going to last as long as a mild 200 HP six. No way no how.
[/quote]


Ok, I'll post the info again. The new breed of type4's has:

Nickasil cylinders just like a six
New freakin CNC heads
Will have ceramic roller lifters
Roller cams with new profiles
Modern EFI -SDS, Megasquirt etc...
better than stock rods
better bearings

Why won't these go 200k if its not raced? I am sure at 100k the heads should be looked at but where and what will go wrong?????

yeah, but a 2.2S six motor made about 160+hp all high revs. A 2.3L four built for 200hp can be done and a 2.4L six is hard pushed to get there unless I am missing something. You always have to add in the price of the six conversion too in the comparison.

Game on boys!





I have 64 lifters in stock and 11 cams being groud as we speak.. In 2007 by mid year ALL my complete engines will be "Rollers"...

Someone mentionned the valvetrain being weak... These EXACT same components (sam Mfr of the lifters and same material for the cam blanks)make it 5-6, 500 mile NASCAR races, last weekend they were turning close to 10,000 RPM in Atlanta the whole race, most cars were not dropping below 7,500 in the corners..

Oh man...those deserve a


2316 on the brain...

Yes youre missing something. 2.4 S engine in stock trim made 190 HP. Hard pushed to get 200 HP? A set of headers or increasing lazy compression ratio of stock 2.4 engine would easily push output over 200 HP. The 2.4 responds very well to mods as outlined below.

A quote from PORSCHE Excellence was expected.

" With a new long stroke camshaft Porsche could build 911 S engines for GT racing that came right up to the 2.5 liter class limit, and it was not long before they had done so. In fact one such engine survived 7500 miles of flogging in a course car in the 1971 Monte Carlo Rally. New Biral cylinders and pistons with bore of 86.7 mm brought displacement up to 2494cc. With the Bosch injection it produced 275 bhp at 7900 RPM and 195 ft/lbs of torque at 6200 RPM."

Hmmm ....Stroker 2.4 six. I just might know somone who is doing that.

I wanna see a type4 turn 10 grand for a race.


Ok, if the 2.4S was so great at 200hp why is everybody going to 3.2 or 3.6's?

Another friggin book reader...

Imagine that.

Grant is stepping up. I can see this.


KT

Well, I had a nice post written for this, and I hit one wrong button and it was gone. Gotta love it.

If you took the time to listen to the radio show Jake posted, you heard my testimonial. If you didn't, listen to it. What I said is the truth, and it comes from someone who has been driving these cars for over 20 years.

All I can say is that I agree with the statement that you have to build what you want. Having said that, I believe if they do the challenge, and the motors are equal in power (with similar torque and HP curves) the 6 does not stand a chance.

Porsche built over 100k of these cars, the most successfull Porsche of its day, and the vast majority of them were 4 bangers.

Yes, there is someone with a 200HP 4 on this forum (202 at 6K to be exact). Backwoods GA???? All I can say is ignorance is bliss. Brains are not confined to the big cities of the world. Air Cooled Heaven is an impressive place, and they do great work there. There is something to be said for the clean air that you breath up there.

I am going to take my 4 banger up to the mountains to see the turning leaves down here in Backwoods GA (without any reservations by the way, the motor is silky smooth, and I have no doubt it will provide a trouble free life for a long time).

If you are wondering, I have just over 13K in my motor setup. I pretty much went all out and that includes the most beautiful headers money can buy (Thanks Chris) 1-3/4" Foley customs with center exhaust muffler, ceramic coated and all. I got the a turnkey 2316 from Jake with the old ceramic lifters (no longer available I believe), some cool coatings, and lots of goodies including the JE Pistons. It uses 45mm Dels with the custom Mallory from Jake (you have to get him to set it up if you buy it so it is right on the money). That includes an Accusump and a remote cooler ($1000???? I have about $200 in my set up and it is a Mocal) with the stock cooling system. My temps run between 300 and 350 CHT and oil temp is way cool under normal conditions and was totally under control after 3 hard 1:30s autocross runs in the heat of the summer in the big city in GA.

Whatever you decide to do with your car, enjoy! I thought you might like this honest information from an experienced 4 banger owner.

Peace!

Move on, I need over 400hp to get me going and there are others on board whose teeners are sporting 600. I am sorry but 200hp is not that exciting.
I hope this kills this thread.

If you hate it so much, why are you monitoring it Chappy?

I'd like to add that Mike has a stock 914 cooling system, not my DTM and attains those temps... They are near exacting those of a 100% stock 2.0 engine that makes 100HP less... Can anyone say efficiency???? Hell yeah, with a capital E!

Mike was standing right next to me when that 2316 pulled 202 ponies on my dyno with equal torque...

Mike did a great job on his install, the install is what makes or breaks the engine....
Mike, I heard that I was able to break a gearbox for you??? That a boy, those 2316s are HELL on 2nd gear- I broke mine 3 times!

Do we have a thread turned infomercial smiley?



KT

Do you have any pictures?

Who said I hated it, but this debate could go on forever, there is no right or wrong, better or best.

It is not a debate. The guy asked for information, and I gave him honest information about my experience. Infomercial? You guys think what you want. What do you think 914fan asked for........INFORMATION.....

Here is the car, I have a picture of the motor at work I will post on Monday.

The local Georgia pitchman from the radio show? Clearly hints of infomercial to me. Based on price you quoted you got a deal on your motor in exchange for something. Even I would pitch Jake if I could get a turn key 200 hp motor with those headers, etc all in for $13K. Thats $5000 less than Jake quoted me for lesser setup once I figured in cost for carbs and headers.

Jake you want to sell me a 206 HP turn key motor all set up with coatings, ceramics, carbs, ignition, expensive headers and muffler for $13K? Wow!

Wow, this thread probably won't go anywhere. But, as we were speaking before for about 5-6 grand you can do a raby 4 at 200hp, or do a used 911 engine conversion - on a budget. You can also do a Suby or V8 in the same price range. So there is a lot of choices there that wasn't not too long ago.

Again, I am asking engines with simlar torque curves, 4 vs 6 - what's the difference?

And price ranges were never asked for in the first post, but if you want to make an apples to apples comparison - you have to factor the cost of admission to play.

The thing intriguing to me is the fact as the 914 is perceived as the underdog, change to a 6 and all of a sudden the perception changes. Add a hopped up 4 cyl and it adds to the underdog whupping ass on the majority perception. Jake has a tough argument here, there are thousands upon thousands of 911 engines making good power with longevity and power. With his engines, he has to wait for word of mouth on how they survive before the majority really believes in longevity. that's hard to do when most of the cars are pleasure cruisers or track weekend cars.

And I believe the rarest thing would be for any of them to replace their SIX with a FOUR.

Anybody here with a 911 convert to a FOUR? ( crickets )


KT

I think the reason that smaller SIXES are plentiful and cheap is because 911 guys are upgrading to bigger SIXES.


Pretty straight forward, really.


KT

Correct Trekkor. And if someone also invested in a Raby 4 would they decide then to go to a 6 cyl? I dunno. For the cost of the big ticket items (nickies, roller cams etc.) it would be hard to drop that investment and change rather than repair and move on. But with big 4's in the past they blew up quick and quite easily, those poeple pressed on or converted to a six. John Rogers is one of them. Like I said, if Jakes engines are all what he states - he has a long road ahead before the majority changes their minds.

And of course, for some, resale value is important.



KT

OK guys. We took a hard left. Lets bring it back to center.

"How do a 200hp 6 and a 200hp 4 drive compared to each other. I know there are several ways to get 200hp out or either. I am interested in a daily driver 200hp 6 or 4. Does anybody have any dyno charts of these? Is the 6 more peaky? is the 4 more torquE? Type IV and Porsche 6 please.
I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just looking for information cause I found an empty spot in my brain, and I need to fill it before something else goes in there."


I said nothing about cost, preference, or anything. I was just looking for info. This has been a good thread for the most part. I am not looking to get a 6 or 4. I will probably only ever end up with a 1911 or if I'm lucky a 2056 4. I just wanted to know how they drive in comparison. ONE person told of his story with factory 2.0s 4vs6. That was awesome. a couple people have told like stories. Thank you. I DO NOT CARE about the cost of either power plant. I can't afford either one. I'm poor. Ask slits. hes seen my car. If your in HB you have probably seen it also. Lets sop fighting about what is best and discuss the topic.


Have you driven a six? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?
Have you driven a powerful four? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

as far as "Jake the infomercial" so what? He builds a great product and is proud of it. We all brag about what we are good at. You should hear me talk about fishing on a kayak. He has made getting four parts easier. If that was all he did we would all be happy. But he does more. You either like what he does or you dont. If you like it thats great. If not thats great to.

Lets try and bring this back to center.

If you have a six how long does it take to go from 1500rpm to 6000rpm in third gear? what are the indicated speeds? Same question for a powerful 4.


I do like the idea of 1 car that has the motor switched. If it could be done with a neutral driver it would answer the question exactly. Exacting documentation would show the differences between the two.


Remember I NEVER said anything about price, preference, or a need to get one or the other. I just asked how they drive. Be descriptive, I want to be able to imagine it.

Nick

Good points Nick. Did you see the torque curve chart for a 3.0 and a 2316 very similar along all RPM ranges. HP is a measurement of torque, so my thought is they perform very similar.

I've ridden in my 1.7 and 2.0 and a hotrod 2056 those were fun. I got to ride in trekkors car, and that was funner. Got a ride in a 3.6 teener in is downright scary TORQUE those 6cyl engines were far more fun than my stock and hotrodded small 4's.

I'm surprise and embarrassed by the arrogance some six converts.

If Jerry Woods was here promoting six cylinder technology I know at least three people who would be excited to hear every secret he would spout. I'm one.

Don't bash the people who share their knowledge just because it's not interesting to you. There are quite a few people on this board who have a financial interest related to this board. I'm glad that people like Jake and Brad and TimT and so many others are willing to share their knowledge. And if they make a buck or promote themselves, I consider it a valuable trade.

Nick, I don't know how money doesn't enter into the equation. Without considering cost it becomes every combo of four cylinder vs every combo of six cylinder.

Six conversions cost money, but if you want huge power they're the way to go (3.0, 3.2, 3.6). If you're looking for bang for your buck, a 2056 four with carbs is probably the best bet. A 2056 with 125 hp is amazing and you can build one for around $2000.

Travis. I did see the 2 plots. That was great. thank you.
"Input. Need more input."
More driver and driven stories


I agree with McMark. Don't bash those who share their knowlede. If we were to bash everybody who shared their knowledge. NONE of US would not be bashed.

Cost does not need to enter the equation because I dont care. I will never have a high cost engine. I would consider myself lucky to ride in one. I just want to be able to close my eyes and imagine the drive. So how do they drive. Lets even take out the hp part of this question. Do you have a high power 4, or 6? Describe in detail how it drives.

Again thank you all for the info.
Nick

The local Georgia pitchman from the radio show? Clearly hints of infomercial to me. Based on price you quoted you got a deal on your motor in exchange for something. Even I would pitch Jake if I could get a turn key 200 hp motor with those headers, etc all in for $13K. Thats $5000 less than Jake quoted me for lesser setup once I figured in cost for carbs and headers.

Jake you want to sell me a 206 HP turn key motor all set up with coatings, ceramics, carbs, ignition, expensive headers and muffler for $13K? Wow!


Grant,

I had the carbs, ignition and a good core. I also delivered it and picked it up, so that saved me some money too. The rest was bought and paid in full, no credit cards. I did get a good deal, do you know why? I got on the list almost 2 years ago before everyone knew about Jake. I had faith in him after I talked to him about the motor I wanted. He said he could build it and I put up my money and waited....and waited. My car is nice. It is exactly what I always wanted, and I love it. That is all that matters. I am no pitch man for Jake. He is crazy for sure, but in a good way. And being in the service business, I deal with a lot of people who will try to scam you. That is one thing Jake will not do. You get what you pay for. If I had to do it again, I would pay the going rate for what I want. You sound like you like your 6 and that is fine, but don't judge someone because he speaks his mind. Have a little class.

914fan, the questions you asked are good. My car is more nimble than a six, no doubt. It changed direction better and is much more predictable as it starts to slide. Most of what you asked is based on set up. Weight distribution on the 4 cyl. is basically 50 50. The 6 adds some weight, but it is still well balanced. It is a mid engine car, so that is inherent in the design. Most of the things you asked are due to what the driver does when. Weight is shifted with your feet, and any car can be made to push if you transfer weight to the rear at the wrong time. As far as details go, the car is easy to drive and very forgiving, pulls very hard from 3500 to 6500 and will cruise along at 3000 without a problem. It revs very fast and in 3rd it runs through the gear like a stock one runs through second. I drove a stock 2.0 for a lot of years and this one puts it to shame. Its not as fast as a strong 6 cyl. on top end. But most of my driving is done between 30 and 80, and it will run with any 6 (minus the big ones with big power) at those speeds.

Keep saving. I had mine sit for years while I was saving for the car I wanted to build. I am glad I stuck with the 4 cyl. If I wanted a 911, I certaily could have gotten one for the money I have in the car. I wanted a 914, and to me, a 914 is a 4 cyl. Good luck, I am not going to waste anymore of my time with this. Enjoy your car, and BTW, I love the boat on top.......they really do hold a lot of cargo for a little car too...... Cool.

The questions are really still too vague....

Gearing, tire size, whether or not the car is stockish weight or not or extensively been put on a diet all have a huge effect on how it drives and where the power is and how it feels.

What you really need is the dyno charts to get a better feeling...you could have 2 /4 motors that both put out lets say 200HP, but one could be a dog on the street if it's designed for high rpms and if the other one is more of a torque monster it might be considered more fun to drive on street..geared incorrectly and neither one could be fun to drive but be more of a chore.....

considering that driving just a bone stock 914 is fun, anything putting down more power will be a blast if the rest of the car is up to the task of letting you use the additional power.....

generally speaking, no matter whether it's a /4 or a /6, the bore/stroke/cam(s) will dictate where the power is

whether or not the car "pushes" has nothing to do with the powerplant...

I have just been trying to say that in the four world things have changed, you can get 200hp that lasts.

Can we stop the bashing seems like its a personal thing.

For a DD, I think the 2056 is the best for your money. 110-125hp, about the same as a stock six but 100lbs lighter.

So all in were talking something around $15 to $16K if you had to pay for fuel system and ignition. Dang thats still a little cheaper than price Jake quoted me even with my own core and building a mild 2270. Its nice for us to have an honest discussion about true costs of a Big 200 HP T4 for once.

So getting back on topic. Your engine's powerband sounds very similar to my 2.4 911 E engine. The 2.4 I had installed in my car pulls hard from 3000 to 6000 RPM. I can actually grab decent power as low as 2500 RPM. The motor has little top end above 6000 RPM. Biggest differnce is I spent a 1/3rd of that T4 cost on my turnkey six motor. Silly me, but I do think cost is a consideration for some of us. I respect both motors I just couldnt ignore the value in a used six. I also didnt have the patience to wait 2 years with Jake like you did. I wanted a motor and had it installed in under a month. No waiting just instant gratification. I have this thing about not waiting until tommrrow as I might get hit by a train.

Trying to answer the original post is almost impossible. You'd have to pick a specific big T4 build spec and a speific six build spec. My 911 E motor is tons differnt from most high reving sixes. It gives a pretty incredible punch starting at 3000 RPM that is amazing for a small displacement engine.

Jake , FAT and others have built motors with differnt specs. In general cars with big T4's I have been in have great throttle response and give intial trust just like a six. in the first couple of gears. In general it isnt until youre on the open road that a medium size six shows its advantage with top end power. For a street motor anyone would be well served by a T4 anywhere between 150 to 200 HP.

Please let me know when Jerry starts posting on the 914club board to drum up business. LOL! Hope I dont embarrass you too much with my arrogance. Its just a problem with us guys with six cylinder motors we feel like royalty when we drive real Porsches.