a heated debate - is good for all.

i emailed jake yesterday sorta asking this very question.

besides the 2316 kit plus shipping, what else is needed, carbs $, header $, DTM $, mallory distributor $, raby machining of case halves $ - what else ?? and cost.

I think Jake's awesome work and ability to keep some prices down - changes this overall debate on a daily basis - bravo Jake !!!

I think I would prefer a fresh 4 over a used 6 of similar HP but I can see - easily - Trekkor's point. I think a bullet proof 150 or so HP 4 would be great but I have yet to own a 914 reliable driver that could be taken to the track : (

It's probably easiest to start with a full core engine (1.8 or 2.0L) but you could start with a 1.7. For core parts you need to send Jate a 2L crank, flywheel, and 914 fan. You'll need all the little bits off of the core engine to assemble the new engine. If you start with a 1.7, you'll need to find a 2L crank to send Jake or pay the core charge.

You also need fuel and spark. You could use a stock 914 distributor but the Mallory is way better. For fuel you can do Webers or EFI. (You can't use stock injection but having a complete stock injection setup would be needed if you wanted to do Megasquirt or an other FI system,)

Why are we using 200hp as the mark of performance? That is the low end for a six and the high end for a four. Lets push this argument out to something a little more realistic.

250-350hp. Can't even come close with a four cylinder. Durability goes to the six. Notice the power curves listed a few pages back. The six makes more power everywhere.

There really isn't an argument, you either like the fours or sixes or both. Build your car to make you happy and enjoy it for what it is.

AS far as race cars go, with the same rules a four cylinder car will be faster and easier on tires, but it will be an expensive grenade.

(However, the preceding graph is a 2.3 four vs a 3.0 six. Sixes start as low as 110hp, not above 200. Plus 200hp is still a little bit on the extreme for an all-out 2.0 six, or even a stock 2.4. N'est pas?)

Should my 2.7L need a refresh (assuming it doesn't go BOOM)
a bottom end rebuild kit (containing all the expendables) is 600-700 bucks).
A valve grind is less than 500 bucks ( springs and intake valves are fairly inexpensive should they be required....exhaust valves....aren't)

More wear would include pistons, 1K & cylinders replated, 600 bucks(last I looked).
I'm a DYI kinda guy so best to worst case is 1200 to 2800 bucks.

Tack on 80-100 hours of "drop the car off at the shop" time and you're up in Jake territory

I put about 6500 bucks in my 2.7 and got a reliable 200 hp including intake & ignition.

The original poster mentioned 200hp. Actually I think a 914 with a 160 foot pounds of torque 2270 would be a pretty nice ride. I'll actually tell you guys how it is after I get my kit installed this winter.

What convinced me about big fours was when I took a ride in McMark's car. He has a 2056 with a mild cam and EFI. I think it dynoed at 95hp at the wheels which is around 110hp at the crank. His car was a little screamer. It moved so much better than my stock 2L. It was like night and day.

I agree that over 250, even over 200, that one should think about a big six. So how do you get 350hp in a six? 3.8L? turbo? On the other hand I think the small sixes are a waste of money unless you get the engine super cheap and it is at least an E or S engine making over 160hp.

Lets be real T4 fans. A 200 HP T4 is a handfull and very expensive. It does cost a mint to build a reliable 200 HP T4. Youre looking at Nickies, trick heads, cams, fuel injection, special machine work, tons of dyno work, etc. Then you have all sorts of costs associated with clutch, fuel delivery, oil cooler, etc that you would have with a six conversion. Once you get that 200 HP T4 all sorted youre looking at a hefty bill and then youre not assured of an engine that will be reliable long term. You run lean by mistake and that crackling T4 beast is toast. We have also heard more than our share of home built T4 horror stories. I think its time for some to stop drinking the Georgia Kool Aid.

It is easy to find a 3.0 six for $3K to $5K. Those motors will make 200 HP all day long and purr like a kitten on the street for years.

If you want a 200 HP 4 do a Subi conversion. After seeing a turbo Subi conversion this past weekend they are truly impressive! ...and you have Japanese reliability! Nothing cooler than a 914 with a blow off valve poping away as you smoke the tires with 250 HP.

I'd say T4 is a viable motor up to about 175 HP for a dedicated autocross car. If you are a risk taker you could do a kit and come close to that 175 HP number. You'll hear lots of talk about that mythical reliable monster 200 hp T4, but you wont see many - I beliieve they are like Bigfoot ...Some Hillbillie putting on some big feet and claiming to see a big fury monster. Reliable 200 HP T4's belong in the Bigfoot museum space.

Let me qualify this post by saying if I had unlimited funds I would have a wicked lightweight Raby T4 powered AX car and a 3.6 liter six track car. Both are good and serve different purposes.

Grant, There you go again..
Getting out of line and creating a post that gets off topic and ends up with yelling..

I don't appreciate your indirect slams, not a damn bit....

BTW- Georgia Kool Aid doesn't have an "E".. That must be a California thing..

Oh yeah, if Type 4 engines suck so bad why the hell is your IP logged on most of my radio show downloads and why did you bother becoming a member of my new forums???

Just wondering which side you are really on??? Please explain yourself...

It's not about sides.

He said if he had "unlimited funds" he'd have the baddest motor you could build.


KT

that's weird...

freaky internet spying...


Wow...


KT

There are some cool deals on E-bay right now.

Like this one:
911 motor


KT

I like the six's better.. This ones going in mine.

Comparing a used six cost to a rebuilt custom four isn't fair. There have been several BBS members who installed used sixes that didn't last long. A six rebuild isn't cheap-$10k+.

The 200hp kit 4 motors will fill the need for guys who want to stay witha four and not convert everything over to run a six.

Post this price list of the new parts to convert to a six. Brad posted 4 years ago a list that was $4.5k and prices have gone up since then. Not Swapmeet Louie prices, new.

I just think its great that there is this option now as 10 years ago a big 4 130hp that lasted 20k miles was big news.

I've been watching this thread since the beginning and have had about 4 different post written up before I deleted them....

I wonder how many people have really driven both big fours and sixes......

They are both really cool cars. I have a 2270 in my stock looking 914 that I love. It's faster than any 911 up to a C2, pulls 944 Turbos on the straights, corners with almost anything. It's really fun. Did I mention that I love it.....

I've driven the blue car Martin Baker just bought with a 2.4S motor, cage, all the goodies. Fun car too. Very different. Much easier to drive fast, but I don't think it's ulimately as fast.... Feels heavier, but with the S cams it's fun to drive.

I have a race car that was just sold on these pages. It's now got a stock 2.7 in it (motor and rebuild for under $6k by one of the best mechanics in the Northest to end everyone's speculation). It's again a very different car. We've only had it out for two days, but it's much easier to drive up to about 75% of the speed of my street car. Overall, I think it will be much easier to drive. It's got about twice the torque, has a broad powerband, and is never really off cam.

Both a high horsepower four and six are great motors. Overall, the sixes are much more reliable. You can take a stock 6, do a top end, increase the compressoin, change cams and still get over 200k miles on the bottom end. Can't do that with a four. Horsepower and torque are never issues with sixes.

Still, I built a big four for my car. Why - It's fun. I enjoyed building it, tuning it, driving it, passing 911s with it.....You really have to drive and ride in cars with both motors and pick what's right for you. Someone said it right before that you just have to enjoy your car. Stock, Modified, four, six, Chevy, Subi, whatever. Drive it and enjoy it.

So what new info is there? The /4's are making a bit more power. Maybe there are a few more affordable /6's out there. The truth is this issue will never be settled and very few people change their minds.

At some point, you have to take a jump into one camp or the other and live with it. The only really good advice is look at your deal very carefully and get as much info about that specific engine as you can be it a /6 or /4. People have had sucess both ways and people have been burned both ways.

Dave

"This issue" is supposed to be how cars with the different engine types drive compared to one another. Not which is better! "Better" when talking about 914 engines at this performance/price point is clearly a subjective topic, and obviously one that cannot have a "correct" answer.
The one you did finally post was great reading Matt! Way to bring this thread back around...maybe some more people with experience driving both engines will follow suit. Thanks too to SirAndy, Bleyseng, Brando, john rodgers, anthony (and so on) who have posted good info from that standpoint.

It's clear that everyone on this board has an opinion on which engine they prefer (including me), and opinions have their place. But as someone who is going to face this dilema at some point down the road (how am I going to upgrade my 2.0 4?), it would be great if people could save their opinions about which is better for another thread, and only post to this one if they have experience driving cars with both engine types. If you only have experience with one or the other, posting your opinion of that one engine type really isn't too helpful because you're not in a position to make an informed comparison.

Not to buuuut....while the original post was asking about 200 HP, it seems to me that number could be flexible when doing a comparison. If you've got experience driving both a 4 and a 6 in *any* HP range, that info seems appropriate for this thread. Hopefully 914fan, the starter of this thread, would agree.

And now back to ...

I actually have one of each. a '74 2.0 four and a 1970 2.0 six. Both completely stock engines.

I purchased the 4 first for around $3,000 and could not believe the grin I had on my face after each drive. Three years late (3 months ago) I bought a beautiful 6 for around $20,000. The grin is even bigger, especially between 4,000k and 6,200k. The difference in sound and smoothness is amazing. Worth the $17,000 difference. Depends on how you look at it. I will keep the six forever. The kids only have permission to sell it when I'm senile and can no longer drive. We were going to sell the 4 when we bought the 6 but my wife likes the color (orange) so we are now keeping it for the kids to drive with dad when he goes autocrossing. (And they always beat me)

Add horsepower to either and I think the characteristics will remain pretty much the same.

Ken

Life isnt fair typically. And some of us use that to our advantage. Given the market glut of used sixes there is a market for cheap "Swap Meet Louie" six conversion parts. The same cant be said for big bore T4 parts. Six conversion parts dont come close to $4,500 if you shop around. ..and you might as well exclude upgraded clutch, fuel management systems, headers, oil coolers and linkages if your comparing cost of a big T4 conversion as you need to do those things when you convert from a stock T4 to a big T4 as well. So six conversion costs start to look very very attractive. Funny thing is you will never see somone post all the costs associated with a 200 HP T4 conversion.

When we get back to the original question of this post I just couldnt imagine a streetable 200 HP T4 option that would come close to cost effeciency or reliability of a 200 HP six. Asking how those engines would compare in terms of feel is tough to answer as each could be built with different charateristics. I know my 2341cc 911 E six is much differnt than other small bores - mine feels more like a torquey 4 than a high reving six. It makes gobs of power and torque from 2500 rpm to 6000 RPM and then it runs out of steam.

Good point about comparing Big FOUR to a Mid SIX. ( BIG SIXES make more than 200hp )

I've never driven in a big FOUR powered 914.
I'm not about to pay $15k to find out, either.

I think we have all driven stock FOURs...And we liked it...We loved it!!
I run a small SIX. Many people said it was a waste of time and money.

This is by far the car that has brought me the most enjoyment.

When I can afford it, I will spend $3-6k for a 2.7-3.2 long block, move over all my intake, exhaust and other.

How can that be wrong?

KT

Trekkor - Nobody is saying it's wrong. There are lots of motor configurations that people can run. From the sounds of it you really like what you have built and that's great. However, realize it's not for everyone. I didn't go that route becuase I viewed it as too easy. Not everyone can build a motor like mine. I enjoyed the entire project.

You have to remember that every car / motor is different and on the track everyone's driving skills change the picture. I've outrun 914's with 3.6s in them in a little 2270 four cyclinder. Was it becuase of horsepower or driving?

What's important is for everyone who spends whatever amount of money on a motor to be happy with it. Whether it's a little or big four, little or big six. As long as they enjoy it, who cares?

There is one way to settle this..

Someone offer up a car...

I build a 200HP TIV for it and then some dedicated souls can install it and the swap it out with a six of similar output..

I'll limit my engine to being built from an engine kit offering with a 6K budget for internals..

Then take it to the AX, 1/4 mile, skid pad and Road course with both engines installed.. I have a 32 channel data logger with accelerometer and GPS to monitor corner speeds, trap speeds and G forces exerted with both engines, as well as temps..

Same driver, same car the only variable will be the power plant..

I'm willing to build the engine and pay shipping to the install/test site. I will also pay my own way to come there and ensure the TIV is installed correctly and will assist with the work... At the end of the day I'll take my engine home with me..

Thats how much I believe in what I create... If anyone or a group of people combined feel the same about their six feelings, step the fuck up and make it happen..... This is not BS and I'm willing to go to any part of the country to make it happen.

Put up, or shut up... Lets do it mid summer 2007, I'm buried till then.

Yes!!


KT

Jake, that sounds like fun.
I seriously doubt anyone will actually make this happen.

If I end up with a 200hp SIX by then, I may be your guy. ( serious )

On the other hand:


I'm sure you could come up with the parts and build this.
But, isn't the 200hp TIV much higher than that, pricewise to the end user?

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

I'd love to see THE final cost breakdown listed item for item and the final pricetag for a reliable/streetable, turnkey, 200hp motor that could realistically live for 50-100k miles with some occasional DE and a/x use.


KT

Thats really not the point here. Realistically no one is going to be able to make a 200 HP T4 conversion for $6000 after adding all the required conversion parts on a stock car. Then lets talk about whether a big T4 that makes 200 HP is going to last as long as a mild 200 HP six. No way no how.

I dont think anyone doubts whether a T4 built with more torque might make the car move a little faster due to weight advantage. Its kind of a silly premise to begin with. This kind of proposal belongs on "Pinks" rather than a rational discussion on a 914 enthusiast board.

Woops... how'd that get in there?
Mark d.

Isnt that free? Like I said you wont see anyone publishing full cost of a big T4 conversion (200 HP) as its embarrassingly expensive.

Ask Randal....he should have pretty good idea at this point

Ask Randal....he should have pretty good idea at this point

Does it have to be the same car? how about similar cars that have suspension and tires ready to go. My 70 914 is getting close to 1800 pounds and is still streetable.
The problem is with a six I would gain significant wieght and that would slow down the car is braking and cornering..

With my buddy behind the wheel this could be a very exciting day.

So to keep it equal it would be tough. the same car with the same brakes and suspension would suffer with a 6 and get REAL fast with a 4 of equal HP.

The topic of this thread is 6vs4 right.

I liked the 200hp - 4 over the 200 hp 3.0 - 6 "BUT"

Without getting into price or cost which wasn't part of the original topic, here is what I have done over the years.

Ive had both in search of the 914 car of my dreams
I had a 2.9 type 4 built for my first 914 it was very fun torquey as hell and blew up on an overrev when the tires spun after hitting some sand on the road during takeoff- 5000 miles of short lived fun but it wasn't my dream car.

Ive had a stock 3.0 sc 6 which was ok, but nothing to exciting, not the dream car.

Then a 8lb boosted turbocharged 3.0 which was more exciting than you could imagine, almost dream car.

Now I am almost ready to try out the new and improved 3.12 engine boosting 1bar
that has me actually worried on how scary it maybe until I get used to it.
Some guys get horsepower happy and go to extreme limits I think that now that my engine will be producing over 400hp, I hope I am done creating my 914 dream car and it had to have a monster six in it.

Trekkor has a car with four cylinder mounts still in it and access to track events. We could dyno his existing motor to get a baseline. A four swap would take about 90 minutes. I'm willing to buy what I need to build a HP matched motor with no gimmicks or secret formulas. If Trek and Jake are into this, lets talk.

Joe,

The car should be the same. If the car is up to a true 200 hp motor, it's going to have all the brakes and basic chassis set up ready. The real difference is the spring rates would change.

This is starting to get nonsensical and emotional.

If we really want to start a debate on the motors longevity, etc, then lets talk real facts. I'm not a six expert, but a 911 has 6 main bearings (one for each cyclinder in effect)? A four has three that really support / counter the rod forces. Sixes have a much stronger case design. Sixes are drysumped and have better oiling. Sixes have pistons squirters. Sixes have better head designs, overhead cams, etc.

Again, it's really a personal preference. I understand that Jake has something to prove as it's how he makes his living, but the motors are vastly different.

Seems like you caught me up on something similar. But wasn't this the point of the original question. Now when there's an offer to test the same car it's silly?





Dave

My car would make a nice/perfect experiment platform.

The FOUR mounts, FOUR accellerator cable and set up for carbs and MSD equipped.

Drop engine/trans, swap motors, raise engine trans.

A four man crew could do this in 60 minutes.
Between run groups at Alameda.

SIX am, FOUR pm...Sounds crazy. I'd do it.

Of course it will never *actually* happen.

If it does...We'd need a real-time 914Club web cast with a host and music.


KT

The only issue I have with this debate is the misinformation campaign by the cheap six contingency. Those that ended up with a bum engine that needed a rebuild tend not to post in these threads.

A 2316 doesn't cost $15K. Sure a turnkey motor with all the goodies costs that much but for a fair comparision call Jerry Woods and ask how much a turnkey 911 six would cost from his shop. I bet it would easily be over $20K.

There is no secret on what the 2316 motor costs. All the prices are listed at Jake's store. $4800 for the kit, $200 for shipping, and you need a core motor. A decent header will cost you at least $600, $300 for a Mallory distributor, and $1100 for brand new Webers or about $1300 for an SDS fuel injection system or $500 for Megasquirt. I come up with $7,300 using SDS. Let's just say $8,000 with a few extras thrown in and that is for a brand new motor, brand new Webers or SDS injection, brand new clutch, and a brand new Mallory distributor.

If you go the six route, for $8K you get $4000 in conversion parts and you get a $4000 engine. $4000 buys a higher mileage 3.0L six with high mileage stock CIS injection. I think one would be pretty lucky to get out the door for $8K and not encouter any problems that cost extra.


Jake, if you want to upgrade my kit to a 200hp 2316 I'll be your 2316 west coast ambassador. I'll give every 914club member I meet at 914 breakfasts a ride to remember and I'll be at 10 autocrosses a year.

Thats according what they start with..

BUT generally carbs and exhaust are all thats needed, recently one of my kit customers got 170 ponies at the rear wheels with his 2316 kit in a 914 with a 1-3/4" header we have been working on in house for a while, for a 914.. That header is not 1K bucks.



What machine work? what balancing? All the machine work and balancing is done as part of the costs of the kit. The crank drops right into the case and you can hand clearance the material necessary in 45 minutes, or a machine shop will do it for 50 bucks in a mill.. With a kit I take alll the guesswork away.



But that always varys, based on what the person has to begin with and what corners they want to cut..

In todays world Nickies and exotic parts are no longer needed to make 200HP from a /4 reliable- we can do it with a 96mm bore and an 80mm stroke with a bitchin set of heads and less than 9.3:1 CR..

As I stated, if you want to get real time scientific data the only way to do that is with the same car and same driver with the logger in place and two different engines being swapped out as fast as possible. I am willing to take my time to contribute to this, is anyone truly dedicated to the six??

I'll also say if you want to compare the engines at a higher level output I'm up for that too.. I have a new 230HP offering that needs some press anyway and guess what, it's less than 2.4L, it does it all at less than 9.2:1 CR and makes 235 Lb/Ft of torque....

How many 200 HP T4 owners do we have on the 914club forum aside from Jake? Nuf said. I'm brutally honest about my six conversion its certainly not wort free, but I didnt expect a $2000 engine to not have a few issues.

It would be interesting for you to track all your expenses in your mild 2270 T4 conversion project. My sense is you are underestimating your conversion costs. This has been billed as the cheap big bore and you got your kit on sale. When do you expect to have your motor built?

I kinda like that.
I knew I'd find my place in the world...


KT

Again I would like to bring back to everyones attention that this thread as I interpret it is, "NOT ABOUT COST"(which is where these threads always go), but whats a more enjoyable engine in a 914 a 200hp 4 or a 200 hp 6

I have never had any experience with a souped up 200hp small 6 which I would think would be very fun only the 200 hp 4.
The engine characteristics of the 3.0 SC engine wouldn't be the same as a tweaked small 6.
I thought the 200hp 4 was more fun than the stock CIS SC 3 liter 200hp 6. But the six had way more potential.

Grant,
WTF are you referring to the TIV at larger displacement being a conversion???

There is no altered cooling system needed, no ALTERED MOUNTS, NO GRINDING, NO WELDING or any of the things that would be considered "conversion"....

You guys also act like at 200 HP these engines are about to explode at any minute..
Keep in mind that even an F prod 1832cc engine that makes 180+ HP at sub 13:1 CR will last a full SCCA season of 12 races at 45 minutes of duration...

Keep in mind that the 200HP figures we are making are being done with the same OR LOWER CR than a factory six cylinder engine, the percentage of modification isn't that great as we are only increasing displacement by 15% to effectively double the factory power ouput..

Let me see a six that has that amunt of modification to DOUBLE its ouput... How much does that fucker cost???

I like how everyone ignores my offer- guess you girls don't like the six as much as ypu seem..

Or you are scared that I'll embarass all of you in front of your buddies... It would suck to have your "Porsche engine" spanked by a VW engine developed in the backwoods of Georgia- I don't blame you..

Grant, I'll gladly compare costs with you some day. I don't think I'm underestimating any costs. I only need to write 2-3 checks for everything I need which makes expenses pretty easy to track. I'll be in at under $6K with the 2270, new SDS EFI, and a new Mallory distributor. I'm using SSI HE's because I really want heat in my car. Jake tells me that SSIs are fine with the 2270. If I did Megasquirt my whole setup would come in at $5K but it's a lot of extra work and tinkering and I'd rather just be driving the car sooner. My plan is to have it all together for next spring. The actual kit should arrive in the next month or so.

For me, my car, and my wallet I thought this was a great solution to get more power and have a nice hot rod 914. I will have a new engine, new injection, new clutch, basically new everything.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind owning a big six conversion. I took a ride in a 240hp 3.2 914 with a hot cam and Webers. It was a monster. It was awesome. The guy also has like $30K in the car and it still really needs a 915 conversion (another $8K) to match the engine. If my funds were unlimited I'd love to do a 3.8L six/915 tranny monster of a 914 with flares and wide Fuchs and the whole enchilada.

I think Grant was referring to the need for aftermarket intake, exhaust, dizzy, fuel delivery and additional cooling if you want it to last *ONE* 30 minute DE session in the summer.

If it doesn't plug'n'play, it's a conversion in my mind


KT

Jake, Lets be honest now. A big 200 hp T4 is a conversion. You must convert stock fuel delivery system, you must convert stock exhaust system, oil cooling system, stock ignition system, you must upgrade to a clutch that can handle the extra torque. Its a conversion.

If I use your criteria of conversion my six isnt a conversion either. I didnt grind anything, weld anything or alter mounts.

FYI, I get my butt kicked by T4 engines much less capable than your Hillbilly 4's every AX I attend so I think I'm fairly secure in the fact that I wont be embarrassed too badly. I'd love to see one of your engines but all I ever hear is talk.

I'd definitely take you up on the motor swap CHALLENGE. Just beware that once that motor was in my car I'd never come back and you would be stuck with a greasy old six!

Trekkor, what size motor do you have? Where you serious in your offer?

2.0 S. The motor swap at the autocross, 6 vs. 4?
Sure, I'd do that. Why not?

It will never happen of course...But, I would do it.


KT

Then you are confused..

Its not a conversion and YOU DO NOT NEED BETTER ENGINE COOLING THAN STOCK for todays 200 HP/4... OIL COOLING is not engine cooling, most STOCK -4 engines need an external oil cooler for a D/E event in the middle of the summer..

None of that is considered a conversion, they are UPDATES...

You guys that have never done this don't understand the fact that one of these engines can be installed in one weekend by ONE PERSON including the oil system... I have done it many times by myself..

The factory pressure plate will hold 200HP, all you need is a 85 dollar clutch disc- thats not a conversion unless you weld the pressure plate on!

The Mallory unilite drops in and installs in 1/2 hours, is that a conversion- nope, nit unless you are totally lost and have no clue as to what a 13mm wrench looks like..


Its very obvious that you guys are totally lost on the subject of what it really takes to install one of these engines, if you call the reinstall of an engine thats only had its displacement increased a "concversion" you need to do some more research..

So I guess if you have a 3.0 six and you pull it out and make it a 3.2 its a "conversion"?? By your standards it is..

Bullshit.

Anyone who wants to hear a testimonial from a 914 club member that has a 202 HP 2316 in his 914 can download this radio show from my archives
4th Dimension Radio

To me a six cylinder engine just means it has two more rod bearings to wear, 4 more rod bolts to break and 4 more valves to drop.. More parts = more chances for mechanical failure... Its all about doing more with LESS!

Oh yeah, where is that six cylinder that doubles its HP with 15% displacement gain... better yet where is the 2.4L six that can top this power on PUMP GAS N/A

Absolutely... Take it to a Chassis dyno and post the results. I'll create a /4 that makes similar power and it's game on.. Like i said, I'll need till mid summer to make it happen, but its not a problem..

I'd like to use the 200HP realm for the comparison, since everyone thinks the engine won't last a day... They forget that I drove a 2270 cross country at an average speed of 76 MPH in 4.5 days and then pulled 94 MPH in the Qtr mile with it..

Jake, we have a taker. A 2 liter with S cams and compression should be around 180 horse. Close enough - we have to start somewhere.

Let's put this together. I'd even manage to find a flight out if I got to drive

OK, that will be close..
Like I said, we'd need a chassis dyno report so I could make sure the two engines were as similar as possible...

My 181 HP engine in my 914 made 157 RWHP...

But I'd REALLY like to make it over 200 ponies from each engine..