How do a 200hp 6 and a 200hp 4 drive compared to eachother. I know there are several ways to get 200hp out or either. I am interested in a daily driver 200hp 6 or 4. Does anybody have any dyno charts of these? Is the 6 more peaky? is the 4 more torquE? Type IV and Porsche 6 please.


I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just looking for information cause I found an empty spot in my brain, and I need to fill it before something else goes in there.

Displacement makes a big difference. A 2 liter producing 200hp will be peaky whether 4 or 6.

simple. if you have a /4 and you put a /6 in it, you WILL die!

IMHO, the main difference is in the location of the powerband, a /4 with similar HP output will be more responsive on a tight AX course, a /6 with similar HP output will outrun a /4 on the big track.

for the street, it ain't matter much. i drove my 1.8/1.7 /4 for years and didn't feel like i was missing out on anything.

a big /6 is fun to drive. so is a big /4. meaning, this debate is kind of useless.

dyno charts alone don't make for a enjoyable drive around the twisty backroads, never paid much attention to them ...
Andy

i think it all comes down to cost. a six conversion is cheaper than most big 4's

depending on where you order parts, and who does the build

or you could always go SUBY

Ah, but a big 4 is going to be a nearly new motor while a six usually is not new.

I think the cost is all relative depending on what you are doing or who is doing it.

4 have a more flat torque starting more down in the rpms range while 6's usually have a higher rpm range with their hp/torque high too.

Jake is working on changing all this.

Not sure on "how they drive" - but would y'all consider a 200hp 4 to be "high strung" as a daily driver ? I.E. I would think (IMHO) I would trust more road trips with a 200hp 6 over a 200hp 4. However, Bleysing makes a good point on "newness" but I would say you would build either one up "new" I would choose the 6 (all on the assumption high horse 4 needs higher compression, better gas, runs hotter, etc.. etc..)

This is the kind of question that begs for a vague answer.

Both 4's and 6's can be built reliably. Simply put, it all depends on what quality of parts you use, quality of assembly, etc. Both can be built to produce a good, linear torque and hp curve. Both can be built to idle high and bring the power on high, or keep it down low.

I guess what I'm saying is, tell us what your pocketbook says, and we'll tell you which is more affordable.

An original 6cyl car with a bigger motor maintains it's value much better than a converted 4cyl car, an unconverted 4cyl car can have a big-displacement 4cyl engine and still maintain it's value for being unmolested. It all depends on what your endgame goal is and your budget.

Wouldn't the four be lighter with a potentially (slightly) lower CG due to the 911's fan and induction?

The car will be easily 100lbs lighter (4vs6), obviously that means apples to apples in other weight reduction (if any).

It's all down to what you prefer.

What is changing in the 4 engine world is the availablity of high quality parts.
These are or will be here shortly:
Nickies- Nikasil cylinders even better quality than the 911 ones
Rods- high quality rods better in quality than stock
Pistons- of course better ones
Cams- lots of good cams now that don't go flat
Lifters- anything from good stock replacements, ceramic, or soon roller lifters.
Heads- New castings that are CNC'd to perfection with seats that don't drop out

Sure this will cost money but a hipo 200hp 4 that will last 100k.
yes, it will need a oil cooler but so does a six over a 2.4L 130hp.

Since I have raced both here is my take on it. The 2.8L four was easier to drive as the torque came on earlier than the 2.2L six. Both had 185 HP at the rear wheels where the four made it at 4800 RPM with long stroke, the six made it at 6000 RPM. The six lasted 22 race weekends before breaking a rod this past spring while the four would get two races before needing work. In the cost race, the six is way ahead over time. Now remeember, this is racing with 4 to 6 30 minute full bore sessions a weekend which is much different than street driving and occasional auto-x use so it is much harder on the engine internals. The engines both had pretty good hardware, with the four having Pauter forged rods, forged crank, custom heads with titanium valves and dual springs, etc. The six was made with mostly Porsche racing components except for the 906 grind cams.

I think that 6 is better than 4. Most girlfriends would agree

I feel bad for those of you with small bore 4's...LOL



B

Go ahead and lock this one up- there is bound to be no good from it for anyone, there never is.

The two can't be compared.. Nothing about them or their characteristcs are the same..

And not all /4s are the same- some are totally different than others.. Its very hard for most tuners to get 200 REAL HP from a -4 thats not a grenade, development is the only way we do it...

I haven't built an engine all year that made less than 150 ponies on my dyno..

I'm going over to my forums to finish some tech articles- see ya'll later.. Have fun

If I didn't find such a deal on my small six, I think I would have shopped for a $4-6k 3.0 SIX. Spend about $3k to convert.

Last time we heard, I thought 200HP FOUR's are over $15k plus and need constant care or they will suffer. ( explode )

the 115-150 hp FOURs last longer, but that's not 200hp, now is it?

If ( when ) my SIX blows to bits, I'll find that used 3.0 with a warranty and keep moving.


KT

I said "soon".

roller lifters will help alot to be 200hp and last.

If ya want big, get 8.

I don't claim to know a fraction of what you all know about these cars, but the above statement (which I see on the board all the time) simply doesn't ring true to me. It's not comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing cars to cars. Are you really saying that after driving a ~200HP 4 for a half hour, then driving a ~200HP 6 for a half hour, the two experiences cannot be compared?

Not trolling here. I'm just one of the many less-experienced folks on this board who I'm sure would love to hear some informed opinions on this topic. I think it's a great question, and I have a feeling that more folks on the board will have educated, experienced feedback for 914fan...so hey Mr. Admin, don't lock this thread just yet.

Lava

the fours hp/torque are at lower revs!
the sixes hp/ torque are at higher revs!

thats the difference.

How does it feel? You have to rev out the six more. big deal.

The difference has been is the fact that the 200hp six is factory and the four are custom.

It all depends on displacement. I had a 3.0 SC engine with Webers, and you could start from a dead stop in 3rd gear. It wasn't peaky, but pulled hard until you hit the rev limiter. Those engines have that much torque. There was no problem starting in 2nd. I've drove a couple of 3.2's (Motronic injection) and they were the same way, loads of torque through the entire range.

The smaller displacement sixes are indeed peaky, but those that I know who have such an engine, like the rev factor. You get over 4k rpm and they zing!

Driveability depends on matching the engine to the gearing.

I don't know about the big fours, although I'd love to drive a few.

What's my line here Trekkor? "I don't know anyone who has converted to a six and wishes they have just built a big four".

I respect Jake and everything he's doing, and believe me he knows his stuff.

This issue with 914's is you have a choice to put a Porsche flat six in your car, and for many of us that is very desireable. It is getting much easier and affordable to convert a 914 to a six, better parts, more guys with experience to help, etc.

With a Bug, the best choice is in fact the best air cooled flat four, the type 4.

The fact that the 914 offers us these choices also provides for an endless arguement; four or six.

It's your car do as you wish. You'll find lots of arguements to go both ways.

If it's opinions you want, then my opinion is without hesitation to go with a six.

Of course the best solution is to have 1 of each. Oh if life were so good. Not sure but, I might have to move to Utah to pull that off.

Dave

Here's my two cents. I actually kind of think that over 200hp is the tipping point in the 4 vs. 6 equation. I mean if you are looking for hp in the 220-300hp range then you might just want to start with a 3.2, hot 3.2 made into a 3.5, or a factory 3.6. Under 200hp, I think, modern "big fours" make a compelling case.

With a header a 3L six makes 200 reliable horses and has a nice flat torque curve. The only downside IMO, is that one will need to pay $4-5K for a used 120K mile engine and off the shelf conversion parts cost another $4K. A first timer can also add in a 100 hours to get the job done or pay a pro another $2K. When you need a minimal top end rebuild on a big six and you can add another $2500 to the equation assuming you are pulling the motor and heads yourself or $4000-5000 if you are paying a pro. So just getting the motor into the car can cost $8-10K and one could easily be up to $15k with just a top end rebuild.

I made a torque graph using Jake's 2316 kit numbers versus a 3.0L 911 six. I took the 3L numbers directly from Porsche factory literature that came with my SC. The curves look surprisingly similar!

Click to view attachment


You can build a 2316 for around $5000. You need Webers or EFI so figure on $500 up to $2000 depending on which way you go. You also need a header system so add in another $600 for a Euro or up to $2000 for a Tangerine system with all the options. Low end - $6K, high end $10K.

nothing is better than the sound of a six.
IMHO

and i call


ever listened to a warmed over /4 with webers? it's the webers, not the motor. more intake noise makes for a "better" sound, *if* you're into that kind of thing and if you don't use your car as a daily driver.

if you do drive it frequently for longer periods of time, a quiet FI is a blessing ...

all that aside, i'm not sure it's the smartest move to buy your engine based on the sound it makes ...
Andy

On the SIX transplant, bargain hunters can get a reward. Big time.
The small SIX I use set me back $4k installed as a daily driver.
I am confident a $9k budget can be easily met while using a 3.0.
( I think I could do it for under $7k )

I haven't heard of any bargain hunting happy endings on any high output FOURS.

In fact, just the opposite.

Perry, I love that line


KT

Oh and, why didn't the 914 GT entries at LeMans run FOURs?

I don't think this should be locked. I think if we can keep from pissing on each other and provide good info it may help folks figure out which of two paths (both good) is for them.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and I won't claim that it makes sense for anyone else but me. My goal when I built my car was a good/strong street car that I didn't want to tinker with constantly or be afraid to take anywhere/anytime. I thought the easiest way to achieve this goal and have a sh*tload of power is to go with a big 6 (3.6 in my case) and keep it as stock as possible (stock injection, electronics, etc..). In my simple mind, there should no reason for this to be any less reliable than a factory 993 and folks don't think twice about driving them anywhere, any distance without wondering if they'll make it without needing AAA.

I've only driven 1 big 4 and it was quite impressive. It also didn't live a long life. From what I've seen of the new generation of big 4s on this forum, maybe that's a thing of the past and they will live long and prosper? I think only time and miles can decide that one. A big 6 just seemed like a known quantity, albeit not a cheap one. Although, to do either engine choice correctly probably isn't cheap. I know if I ever build a Spyder replica Jake will be getting a call from me though.......

I'll shut up and go away now!

so you could ask a dumb question 35 years later?
Andy

As I quietly sit and save $$$, the big ? that comes to me is

"How long has your TIV >2300 cc been running trouble free?"

I love my little TIV because it is so worry free, and it seems the big ones fight the "hand grenade" stigma. Sixes are also pretty worry free...OK, back to sitting and saving.

I agree 100%. The only four I've heard that sounds <i> really </i> nice is the four cam either in the back of a 356 or a 904. The six rumble has a massive appeal in my view

They can be debated / compared.
I have driven 4 and 6 cylinder vws with close power. chipped tdi vs vr6. Both fun. The vr6 was quicker off the line but the tdi was way better on the freeway. I do believe a 4 can be built around 200hp worry free. look at jakes latest 2270s. they are around 145-150hp. Thanks for the graph. When I asked about this I was looking to see where a 200hp 6 has its torque. It looks like depending on the 6 and or 4 they could drive about the same. Like I said, I'm just curious. I'm not looking to get anything, just fill some empty space.

Yes to build a big 4 can cost $$$$$. To rebuild that same 4 shouldn't cost as much. (provided it didn't explode) What is the average cost to rebuild a 6 that didn't explode. Bearings, pistons, seals, cam, lifters, etc. I am guessing it will be more due to the porsche name (that sucks) and the 2 extra pistons. ( if the same engine had a vw or chevy tag it would probably cost less. Again if it said bugatti, it would probably be even more)
Again not a flame, just trying to wrap my head around the whole topic.

I may be out on a limb on this one, but I think the reason they ran SIXES at LeMans was because they were interested in winning or at least finishing the race.


KT

Here's the bonus on doing a SIX conversion.

You don't *ever* have to rebuild your blown or tired motor. ( $10k )

Just buy another low priced used SIX of your liking. Maybe upgrade?

There is no shortage of used air cooled SIXES on the market.


KT

dead wrong!
i think the main reason the PORSCHE factory ran a /6 that was build by PORSCHE at a PORSCHE owned factory with a PORSCHE engine was that they most certainly didn't want anybody to think PORSCHE would be willing to race a PORSCHE race car that was powered by a VW engine ...

call me sceptical, but i don't buy the "superior" argument of the /6 engine in this case. i'm sure porsche could have easily built up a /4 motor to qualify/run/finish Le Mans ...

but it would still have been a VW engine, no matter how much R&D porsche would have put into it ...

IMHO, that is the main reason they went with the /6 engine. it had the PORSCHE name all over it and it had been proven itself already in the 911.
there was no need for porsche to experiment with the /4 engine for racing. but that in itself does not mean the /4 engine would not have been up to the task.

Andy

Hmmm...Good point.


NARP



KT

So why did they bother to go to six cylinders in the first place, why bother with overhead cams + dry sump? Because the four had been taken as far as it could. Even the Porsche racing four had overhead cams

There may be some historical context why Porsche went with a six. It doesn't necessarily mean that a four cylinder powerplant was simply played out in the course of things.

IIRC, Porsche liked to play in the 2 liters and under category back in those days. When limited on displacement, the best way to get high specific power (hp/liter) is through revs. More cylinders rev better.

FYI, VERY VERY VERY (did I say VERY) few people here have any REAL experience in a 200 hp Type IV. 200 hp Type IVs have only come on the market recently (street motors, non-race motors) and so there isn't a lot of experience out there to tap into.

As far as my opinion on all this, there isn't a better engine. You need to pick what direction you want to go and get the engine that fits it. And these arguments that you can get six cylinder throw away motors for cheap is and $15k+ for 200 hp Type IV is . That's the problem with this question, you get lots of people trying to justify their (usually) biggest expense on the car, so they throw out unbiased information to tip the scales in their favor. Not intentionally or maliciously, of course, but it still happens.

Is it getting hot in here?

Mark is correct... Very, very few people have experienced the power OR the sound of a true MassIVe TIV engine, they are trying to compare the six to a four of yesterday- not today.. As we have increased power levels and started making our own components things have really taken a huge turn in the past 5 years for the -4.... As this has happened prices on some things have dropped while others have stayed the same while the power levels and reliability were increased.

I have to say that 90% of the failed -4 engines in 914 have come from poor internal configuration or poor installation with inadequte plumbing, crankcase breathing and the like- that can kill any engine. If you couple that to people rushing projects and doing things half assed you start seeing the "Big picture".

With my new forums I hope to remove guesswork involved with creating the engine as well as installing and tuning it, our radio show has already saved the lives of 6 engines as those customers have already emailed and phoned me with thanks for the show. The main thing that has killed the TIV engine since conception is a lack of correct information..

With that being said I started a 4 Vs 6 thread over on my forums earlier today :-)

Back to my side of the world, see ya'll later!!

Call around and shop around.

A good used SIX in varying trim can be found from $2-6.5k every single day.

FYI...There is a good 2.0 in our classifieds right now for $2k
and Spencer at Partsheaven will sell you a 2.7 longblock for $2500.

Then there is EASY and don't forget E-Bay and Craigslist.

Why would I lie?


KT

The one thing that is always missing in these 4 vs 6 debates, is the PRICE of a new built 200hp FOUR. Delivered turn key. *everything*

Give us the price of this motor and it's warranty. This is critical data.
Don't leave it out.

If it's not $15k, then what is it?


KT

good points, he does have a couple of 3.2's however, and I just saw an ad on craiglist...

What did Andy pay for that 3.6 again...?


Do as you please.


I know I will.


KT

I think you guys are trying to compare a DIY six conversion on a fully built -4 by Jake. I would think with one of his kits you can hit the mark for a helluva lot less than 15k. This should be DIY vs. DIY or pay for built vs pay for converted

SPOT ON TRAVIS!!!

Trekkor paid $3k for his installation and let's choose a price of $4k for a motor. You got your motor cheap Trekkor, so please don't take this as doubting your choice to go six. I'm just trying to make a fair comparison.

I can buy a 2316 engine kit from Jake for under $5000. Add an oil cooler for $1000 and still be under the initial $7000 for a six and probably have more power/longevity.

The engine kits are not that complicated to put together and there are a bunch of friends here and on Jake's forums helping people do it correctly. So a kit is a realistic option.

I don't think you're lying, I just think you're misinformed. I also wouldn't attack anyone for choosing to go with a six motor, it's their car and all I really want is for people to love and drive their cars. But if you're going to ask my opinion, I'll say that I don't understand why the six is so popular.

i've got a smoking deal on my engine. $7500 ...
now add all the conversion parts, motor mount, oil-tank, front oil-cooler etc.
then add McMark's hours. then add my hours.

then compare to a turn-key T4 if you wish. suddenly, the turnkey T4 doesn't look that expensive anymore ...
Andy

Don't use the cost of my turnkey engines for comparison... I don't build in volume and do not want to, I won't even complete 20 engines this year... When the engine is bought from me it has 80-100 hours into it, not counting 8-12 hours on the dyno- do the math.

15K will buy a roller cammed engine making 200+ HP and will equip it with programmble EFI with direct igntion, my cooling system etc, etc..

My 2316 K is currently at 185HP, but is being reconfigured now due to newer head technology opening up the possibilities of more cam, and more power. The 2316 will be over 200 reliable HP in about 3 months- in kit form.

I am also doing a step by step video and even offering tool rental to help assemble these kits, you can build the entire engine even if you don't own a 13mm wrench... With the video, it takes a total dimwit to screw it up!

Most of my engines run 10-12K these days and now 190 HP is easy- last year 160 was easy, 190 was a bitch...

I don't think "which is better" is a fair question. I just depend on the application.

I need to do a motor for my 912E and I happen to have a fresh 230hp 2.7L sitting right next to it. It was very tempting to make a 911 out of my 912. There were only 2000 912E's, and how many are left? It would be a crime to put anything but a type4 in it.

With 914's it's a very tough call, as they came from the factory in both forms. I agree with where this thread has gone with regard to 200hp being the magic number. I've always thought that 200hp was "just right" in a 914.

Buying a used six engine is a crap shoot. Roll the dice, you might get an engine with 75k miles left, or you could crap out and need major work very soon. These are 20-30 year old motors, so there are no guarantees in buying used. I feel bad for anyone who banks on buying a $6000 used motor and ends up needing major work without having it in the budget. That potential is always there.

With current technology, I'd guess that 200hp could be had for around $10,000 in a four or a six. At the end of the day it just depends on what you want.

Engine choices have a lot to do with character. If it was all about horsepower per doller we'd all be driving around with 350hp V8's. Engine choices in a 914 are limited only by your imagination. Fortunately, everyone wants something a little different.

If you put FlatVW’s Raby powered car (RIP) next to a nice 200hp six, and asked me which one I’d like to have, I’d be torn. In the end, I’d choose the four cylinder car, because there will never be another one like it, and it was a work of art in my opinion. That says a lot, because I really like 914-6’s.

If you look at what guys spend to build horsepower in most vintage cars, a big type 4 or a six conversion is extremely cheap in comparison. I’ve driven just about every 914 engine option out there, and every one of them put a mile on my face, from the 70hp Dijon bomb, to a 400hp tube framed V8.

If I had to choose just one, well, I'm not ready to answer that yet.

I am always happy when someone get's to drive a car they like.

That's the whole point of this site, right? It's not about who's right and who's wrong. Helping your 914 Bud's, I'm all for that, too.

For me, I just won't spend that kind of money on a FOUR.
That's who I am.


KT

i can go either way. 200 hp is somewhat expensive no matter which route you take. 200 hp becomes very expensive if you are limited by rules on displacement, etc.

i like the fours -- especially for street and AX -- and never really bought into the 'mystique' of the six. there is still an impression, however, that they are not up to abuse of the track. i can say that after some initial sorting, my <$3k four held together quite nicely with track abuse. they are simple engines, and i like that.

at this point, though, i don't really care. give me something fast, and i'll drive it

Can we not just DRIVE!!!!!!!! We all know the choices in engines!! this wears me out and nothing gets solved! So figure it out!!!!!!!