http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=81587

Yes Jim, This IS the thread that gave birth to this thread...

"This became a Jake thread after several emails and even a phone call that interrupted my weekend on the subject. Yep- that pissed me off."

OK then . . . let's all agree to make it a ME thread. Tell me what you think of ME. Ask ME questions about engines that relate directly to ME.

Click to view attachment

I have lots of technical info that I too refuse to share with any body, ask ME about it.

From now on . . . it's all about ME. Oh, and nothing pisses me off, I just won't bother readin' the emails. "Cause when you're ME, that's how it's done.

Okay, after so many posts... what exactly was the original gripe about?

With as many "creative" people on here (look at the vendors section), I fail to see why there's so. How did it go from "someone doesn't like what I did" to "we're stifling creativity!". You took it too personal, and we all should know by now to grow a bit thicker foreskin when posting publicly.

As Andy said, with as many people as we have here you are guaranteed to get at least 1 person who doesn't like whatever about whatever. If you take their opinion personal, that's on you. But if they can supply tried and proven technical fact (and most times I see CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM ON HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER) you're welcome to turn it into a technical discussion to improve your said creation. This is what happens to those who don't recoil due to hurt feelings.

So chipper up, buttercup.

Scott don't post pictures of yourself in that outfit anymore, it turns me on! OOOoops, was that taking it personal? ZING!!!!

For the record as an owner/creator of a bastard 914, I am not afraid to post, nor does my creativity suffer from negative feed back. My point is just simply I have in the past posted ideas and plans for my monster 914 and was met with negative comments and resistance. So for myself I decided that the work is hard enough without having to put up with and defend my self from others and their negative comments. Sure if I can help some one I will and do often, however mostly through PM's avoiding posting directly to the board.

Yes my new dash board is great. It lives in my room on my dresser. My wife is not impressed. Lol.

Sir Andy knows exactly who I am. LMFAO.

Spoken like a true CREATOR not bent by little words from little minds.


Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff!

NO SHIT? That means it's all about ME! I'm impressed by ME!

I runit Marks "fun"....his creative sales pitch.......that was easy. Is he that sensitive or just an air head?

Over the years I've seen nothing that will stifle the creativity of 914 folk. May it always be so.

Paul

I've been away for awhile, did you post pics of your car?

Mark et al,

From my perspective, I love members showing their ideas and craftsmanship. Like most people, I love positive feedback but any kind is better than none at all. Viewpoints are many and each are unique and valuable. Occasionally it affects me but usually it doesn't. I spend way too much time online but it's sort of research and marketing...

Nope no pictures yet! I was warned about putting all that horse power in a 914 with no cage did not listen ripped the chasse in half now I am starting from ground 0 with a new chasse and one of Racer Chris complete custom cages. Progress is at a snails pace now. Married with two kids. Need I say more?

Dayum. This thread is like group therapy.

I guess I'm just always thinking the slaps and jabs are just sarcam. I get pretty sarcastic too, and hope i din't piss anyone off.

I see several opportunities missed to encourage "out-of-box" thinking that I guess we will never know about, though.

I personally thank Jake for sharing what he has told us. It certainly has helped my car. I'm confident he does not point out impending failure to make someone feel bad, but to avoid the failure. He may somewhat overstate things sometimes.

OK!

Thats all. "Play ball."

Alright then, let's play ball. Back to the question, are we stifling creativity? The answer is yes, no question. Without naming names I've seen this over and over again. Good boards where people can't wait to get home after work to log on, share new ideas, learn something, where there's a magic combination of discovery and camaraderie. Then those boards eventually attract and are ruined by self-centered, self-appointed, aggressive and loud mouthed salesmen. Instead of providing a place for friendly give and take where lots of different industry people can meet and share, the boards change, those good honest people are shouted off, and without them you're left with a never ending mono-toned infomercial.

Over and over again.

Really too bad.

Once again,

OK.
I think it is up to us to establish and maintain the proper tone. I'm going to take every chance I see to encourage stretching the boundaries. It certainly has not "all been done before".

In a forum this size with one topic and tons of different opinions this is bound to be a problem.....only if you let it. For instance, I have a Porsche emblem on my hood and a rear reflector. Lot of people scorn that. Who cares! I like it and it's my car.

Point is try to learn something here, it's an awesome encyclopedia of trials and errors. Try to give something here too. If it helped one person out of 8000 then you did a kind gesture. Somebody disagreeing with your opinion is a natural part of life and happens everywhere around you, not just here. If you are not posting because you don't want a negative reply, YOU are stifling the board and most likely your own life, not the other way around.....C'mon, toughen up and be bold! You can't please everyone and sometimes anyone.

Bottom line? Read my signature. "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it"

'ya pansies!!!

So you spent all those hours doing some crazy stuff to your car and when you're done you post pictures in a forum with OVER 8000 MEMBERS and one or two OUT OF 8000 don't like what you did and you take the opinions of those TWO as an excuse to crawl into a little ball and pout?

I don't like Lambo doors on a 914 and i'm not afraid to say so. But it's YOUR car. YOU have to like it. It's YOURS, not mine ...

If you can't take some heat, then yes, don't post your pics here. However, if you stand behind your work, show it to us!
Some will like it, some will not. That's how life works fellas, you should have learned that by now ...

You guys really need to Cowgirl up ...
Andy

Most car guys I have grown up around are rather narrow minded assholes. If they didn't think it could be done they voiced it strongly. 99% of the time they were wrong. There are many guys on here that have done things many have said you can't do. Take note from them and give it a try.

if some kid posts asking a question and your only answer is to stop thinking and buy XXXX parts from XXXX vendor then you're stifling creativity.

if some kid posts his attempt at a repair or part they made and you slag him and his effort then you're stifling creativity.

if you're a loud mouth who blames everyone else for not having "thick skin" then you're stifling creativity.



At the end of the day any Joe can open his checkbook and buy a hot motor, but a real car guy builds it himself and takes whatever lumps he gets along the way. Maybe he screws up, maybe he gives up. DOES NOT MATTER.

What matters is the challenge and this forum (or others like it) are the single most valuable resource available.


Mechanical knowledge and understanding of their cars.
Repair and restoration.
Fraternity and a little escape from reality now and then.


This isn't accomplished with challenges and pissing matches or the running off of members who are not "thick skinned". You say toughen up, I say think before you speak.

Sure, but that goes both ways.

And so far, all the complaining i hear is from people who thought that their idea, no matter how crazy or out there, would receive a 100% warm welcome from each and every active member on this forum.

If that is your idea of "think before you speak" then you live in a dream world.

If i had a buck for every time someone said that they hated my 916 front bumper, i'd have enough money to buy a new one.
Should that keep me from posting here?


Honestly, i don't get it. If you do something to your car that is somewhat out of the ordinary, how could you possibly expect 100% positive feedback?
That's almost impossible with just 5 guys shooting it in your garage, let alone 8000+ guys on a web forum.

If luke warm or negative feedback stiffles your creativity, you should probably stick to collecting stamps.


I actually enjoy seeing people do stuff to their cars, conventional or otherwise. I just don't get the "Say something nice or shut up" attitude ...
Andy

In concept I totally agree...... In a perfect world we would all encourage each other no matter how silly, repulsive or different. I'm sorry it's unfortunately just not that way in our world.

In reality it will never happen. Some people are rude, obnoxious, like to argue and are control freaks. You can't control that no matter how much we plea for it. However, you CAN recognize that this behavior is out of your control and choose to not let it bother you. That's where being thick skinned has it's payoff. It's simply a method of dealing with these type personalities since you can't stop them. You can't force people to change to the better but you can choose to ignore them......It's a simple matter of dealing with the action instead of trying to change people. It's a choice we all have....and it's much easier

Yeah, that's called maturity. Some have it, others don't.

Now when I see idiocy I remind myself how lucky we are that one of the traits that all assholes share is that they're pretty eager to identify themselves. And as soon as you know who they are it's pretty easy to avoid them. Here, I can demonstrate:

Andy your car SUCKS.

See that? Now you can add me to your "idiot" filter and your life will be significantly improved.

See. It's small minded comments like this that hurt this BBS and all of us. The correst response should have been:

"Andy, I hate your front bumper!."

Geee, you guys are harsh!

I think i need to stay away from this site for a while ...
Andy

we're all into the same thing here. myself like many here have dealt with conflict here and have been all the better for it. i don't agree with the blatant @$$hole but the "everybody gets a student of the month" thing helps no one.

throw out your ideas and take the praises and/or (constructive) critisizm. creativeness will flurish (<--spelling?)

mike

oh yeah i hate your bumper too just kidding

I think its pretty obvious that you guys are stifling the hell out of my creativity...

No lack of creativity here.
The second attachment may be a bit stifling tho.
No "massives" here......or nobody would admit to it.

Andrew did make a comeback on the 2nd day to take 914 TTOD for the day.

A few months ago when this post was popular I had a chat with a couple of the older members of the forum on this topic. We agreed on some points that not just this forum, but lots of others also can stifle creativity by streamlining modifications.

Its no secret that lots of people find it necessary to indirectly label me a "salesman", and in some cases they are correct. I really wish they wouldn't be so evasive with their criticism and just come out and say what they feel directly. I would certainly respect their criticism a hell of a lot more, and them as individuals...

It is very difficult to be an Enthusiast in the same world that you reside as a Professional. This is true not only with BBS like this one, but also with attending events. Thats because it is impossible to have a weekend escape where I can be just like anyone else, without all the BS to go with it.

For many years I found it entertaining to help people on forums, of course that was before there were so many small splinter groups that had formed. A decade or so ago the Type 4 was very misunderstood and people were really open to hearing about effective ways to do certain procedures, or make solid modifications that would not leave them without a clue when they didn't work out. As information grew and people shared their own findings things changed.. My idea was to standardize things as much as possible and allow people to start from base lines that were known to be effective. If they had success with those, then they would build confidence and be able to add their own creativity.. In lots of ways it was effective.

In 2005 when I opened my retail store, things really changed.. Thats because until that point I didn't sell any parts and only used the parts we made in our complete engines. As soon as these modified parts were available our interface with the public increased and then the situation for me changed on the forums... Being here was no longer fun, it was a stressful part of life that I no longer cared to experience.

Now, I'll keep the rest of this short... (or will try to)

You haven't seen me very active here over the past few weeks and thats for several reasons. The main one being the fact that I could see that my presence was doing no one any favors, not like in the past when people looked up to solid information, R&D and someone that would take flack for saying what they felt and had the experience (and data) to back it up.

Today I only make a few posts a week and just browse the boards once daily to see if my products have been mentioned here and need any support. I no longer spend hours at a time reading posts, or battling with people about six conversions or Subaru transplants. More than likely, unless my name or products are brought up, you might go a month without seeing me here and thats exactly what many people, and this forum need (and want).

I work with with machines and don't have a lot of interactivity with others. This is one thing that has made me very effective at what we have created here, but few people can understand what really makes me tick. I know/knew that but a lot of times I really didn't put that into perspective and my actions pissed people off, but I hope that every one of those people learned something from what I had said, or perhaps it made them scratch their head enough to do a google search on the topic.

Today I have re-aligned the way we are supporting these engines and I simply no longer have the desire to share these things on forums. Thats largely due to all the drama that comes from it and because I simply don't have the time. Between my normal work load at the shop being doubled with the Boxster and 996 development I have also been producing instructional videos and our online Radio show (podcast). My Company has grown and is requiring a lot more of my dedication to keep that growth positive as I have added new Employees and new divisions as well.

So, I have had my own forums since 2006 and they have been a very effective means for those who want to interact with me to do so. There we can provide product support, answer questions and can do so in an area that is paid for solely by us, not dependent upon any "club" support or etc.

We are continuing to advance the TIV engine and work to provide instruction to those who appreciate it and need it. This will continue in the form of DVDs as well as "Aircooled University" which will begin next year and offer 3-4 day workshops on different aspects of the TIV engine, right here at Aircooled Heaven.

I have been missing the camaraderie of forums like this one, but certainly not the dramatic nonsense that sometimes comes with that....

I didn't mean for this post to be an advertisement and really over all these years I haven't meant to be anything more than any of you who are reading what I am writing here, right now... Thats certainly not what occurred and for that I do apologize.

So, you certainly won't need to worry about my posts stifling creativity here any longer. I'll stop in when I have to (because someone brought us up), otherwise you can find me over in my cave, where I belong :-)

When you live, eat, breathe and excrete the work that you do and have the same hobby, it is REALLY damn hard not to promote it. Sorry guys.

You're not going anywhere, Jake. The last time you left this forum it was because 914 owners were all "cheapskates". Those were your words, no one else's. How long did that last?

Come on now, you know I'm kidding. In fact if you hadn't of mentioned it, I would have never brought up your bumper...

But Jake is correct. There is a BIG difference in the level of creativity for someone like me (a weekend novice wrench at best) and a professional engineering enterprise. I enjoy helping other novices in not making the same mistakes I made, and in learning the correct way to perform maintenance.

Obviously I'm not adding engineering excellence or moving creativity up a notch in the eyes of those whom have been performing this type of work for years. It only seems creative to me because of my incredible lack of knowledge/experience.

For those whom are actually being creative, that is, pushing the envelope of the 914, my posts may seem contrite, silly and probably a waste of their time. However, these people are making our engines perfrom better than new, making our brakes stop us more efficiently, make our fuel lines more safe, and our tubs more secure. In many cases, it would seem to be foolish for these people to share their closest secrets about how they do what they do. They have spent considerable time and money in being creative, I hold no ill will that they want make a profit from this work.

So is creativity being stifled here? NO! It is just the case that the people that provide new and improved products in support of our cars have matured into businesses. And as a business matures, it stops telling everyone around it how it does things. It concentrates on performing better and more consistant service. And it asks for a fair return for it's products.

So the question is; Would you rather return to the earlier days where there were no businesses engineering new and improved products for our cars? Or can you accept the fact that access to this knowledge is not free?

I, for one, an delighted that there are businesses that work hard to provide replacement and upgraded parts for our 35 year old cars.

Eric Read

OK, now I'm confused. Andy was first, so is Jake pulling an Andy, or is Andy pulling a Jake?

See, I never said I was leaving because I am not.. (as you can see, I am still here)

Just seriously changing the amount of time I spend on forums and the way I engage in conversations.

Arguing and debating takes lots of energy, something I need as much of as possible as we march forward with new journeys with new people and a totally new engine platform.

The simple fact that you are a vendor will lead some to believe that everything that you post is intended to increase your business. Then, there are some who truly appreciate the knowledge that you share.

I think that it's great that we have you, George, Len, Dave, Craig, Mark, Mark, Mark, and all the others who care enough about our cars to do what they can to keep them alive, here and available to share opinions or facts.

It's all up to you to decide how much you can tolerate

I've done many 'outside of the box' modifications with Harleys over the years, and got a mixed-bag of comments on them. For the most part, I got good comments, but the reality is, you just can't please everybody. I've always thought that one's car (or bike, or song sheet) is just a blank canvas for you to create your own masterpiece on.

I try to keep my P-cars pretty original, mainly because most of them were purchased as investments, however, there ARE some modifications I plan to make on at least one of my 914's.

Some people might like the mods I'm planning, and others won't, but I'm the person who will reap the benefits from my accomplishments. If they find favor among the multitudes, well, that's just icing on the cake.

Creativity differs with the individual. Not everybody will like or accept ideas you bring forth, but the key thing here is: Don't let it wear you down. Do what you want to do.


Some of you older guys might remember these words:

"You know that some people are different, now ain't that a crying shame. Now wouldn't it be a real drag, if we were all the same". Savoy Brown

So this drama is all just because you intend to post less?


Mark, the wisdom of Savoy Brown? That's down, and I'm thoroughly impressed.

Its not that I don’t agree with you here being thick skinned does have its perks, but you forgot another alternative that we can control. Just don’t post. It’s far easier that way. The creativity is not lost we are still doing our own crazy stuff, however its this forum and its members that will suffer for those few individuals that think they know it all. Me personally I don’t care what any one says. I do what I want to my teen. I just don’t have the time to be bullied or to argue with other members that don’t get it. I still share my accomplishments and horrible failures with other members on this board, the individuals I consider my friends. I post SOME ideas and thoughts in an effort to help others but past experiences have shown me that I need to stop there in order to fort the know it all.

sorry andy. you're always fair and I respect your opinion.
I'm not complaining, but adding a probably unneccessary observation. You've got a pretty strong core of posters here and I suppose its not really an issue how it is. Inclusive/exclusive or whatever is cool and I'm just taking a personal interest which I shouldn't do really.

Jake, thank you.

DBCooper,,whoever you are...you seem to be looking for a fight.
Go out and drive your car at an Autox...its actually fun.

Andy, I personally love your bumper, and its even better now that you molded it into the fenders.


I think this thread has run its course.

Rich

Plenty of creativity and complete acceptance at that event of anything from rabbit rod T4's, 3.6 liter sixes, twin plug small bore sixes, even a Massive powered cars were welcomed! Sixes and small displacement home grown T4's ruled the fast times. ...The Massive not so much. It was cool to see all the great variations going against each other.

I think perhaps limiting of creativity is made up in some peoples heads. I think as long as you pick your platform and do proper amount of research anything is good. I actually found negative comments about my six conversion to help me guide project out of a couple pitfalls - didnt stop my creativity with small bore twin plug conversion even after people said it was stupid to go that direction. Seems to me some with big Bore T4 dreams in their heads just dont like to hear about the issues in going into uncharted waters with big displacement motors. Nothing wrong with big T4 but they do have drawbacks . Subarus are awesome. V8's are tough to pull off well but they are fun! In my opinion sixes are most flexible in meeting all needs of the 914 owner and they are time tested.

I didnt let anyone on any of the silly 914 boards ever stop my plans but I did listen to all feedback as one additional reference point during my conversion. I think variety of opinions is greatest service to the community. I'd worry about somone who would allow a negative 914 message board post to stop their plans? Thats just weird? Most of the true 914 and Porsche powerplant experts I have met dont ever post on these boards!

As far as creativity being limited I have seen posts on triple rotor 20b motor car being built, V6's, lots of V8's, Subi's, lots of sixes and even a couple brave and wealthy souls doing big T4 conversions.