CIS is fantastic in its simplicity, but that also makes it nearly impossible to tune. So while I admire CIS, I can't think of it as anything more than a kludge install. It may run, but it will never really be right. At least not as 'right' as I can get my MS.

I'll second that!

After running a CIS turbo water cooled 1.8, you learn a lot. My perspective: comparing CIS to even MegaSquirt is like comparing "Look what I got away with" to "look what I designed". It can be done, but it's very old school technology. The tribal knowledge is disappearing very quickly as very few of us do it any more. I haven't touched CIS in almost 15 years. I'm sure I've forgotten all my tricks. Beyond that, to get it really right, you need a bunch of hard to find trick parts. By the time you're done, you'll end up paying as much if not more than an MS install.

That said, something about a fully mechanical open loop system that works well brings a HUGE cool factor.

Did a few things that I wanted to document here.

1. Resealed the back window. No more rattles! Some DAPO had shoved every bit of paper and foam imaginable back there to try and stop the rattle.

2. Pulled the water injection setup. I didn't feel any difference and in the mean time was able to tune out the pinging. The water injection may have been too small, but I realized that keeping a container of water in the car was not something that I wanted. Now the pump is repurposed as a water pump for my water-cooled TIG torch.

3. Got new tires to replace the 10+ year old tires that were on there. I recently went to an autocross, so I had performance stuck in my head. So I got all excited when I saw Falken made their ZE-912 tire in a 205-40-16. Got these ordered and installed and then immediately remembered that I don't like how a 914 looks with small circumference tires. And then I drove it and remembered that I don't like how small tires change the cruising RPM. So these will come off ASAP (probably after winter) and I'll get something back in the 205-50-16 which is really close to the stock tire size.

4. I had been using an old Odyssey compact battery that I had left over from a project (Hi Rob!), but as winter started setting in the cold morning pretty much killed the battery. I remembered why we pulled it out in the first place. Cold cranking was pretty much nonexistent and I didn't realize how weak it was overall since it was able to start the car when warm. But I got a new Optima and now the motor cranks!

5. Finally, while the tires were being replaced I was poking around under there and realized I had forgotten this car has a BIG front sway bar and some sort of firmer rear springs. I thought it handled better than stock, but now I know why.

Yup, Neat idea reducing the weight but in the real world where my car lives, I need it to start all the time.

I know you don't need to pass emissions in CA for cars 1975 and older.

http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/smog-chec...s-Old-and-Newer

but I wonder how it would do?

if it tested high, could the numbers be brought down via the MAP alone?

in Delaware my 1972 needs to be under 600 for HC and under 6.0 for CO, regardless of engine in it.

I found a local shop that tuned my, carbureted V8 car, to pass, they had a sniffer, charged $75 at that time.

a 1.7, that runs like a $10k 2270

1.7L engine $300+-
K03 turbo $200+-
custom exhaust $500+-
megasquirt $645
.. http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...bled-p-435.html
intercooler and plumbing $?
bits and pieces $?
labor $?

Sort of........

Driving it every day. Installed a side mirror today. Working on building customized heater boxes, but not ready to post pics quite yet. Still have to build the driver's side.

for heater boxes update : )

I build a center box for an 8" subwoofer a few month ago. Finally got around to sanding and painting it. To complete the system, I got a four channel amp (1xLeft, 1xRight, 2xSub) and tucked it up under the dash. Then I got a bluetooth adapter for the amp. So no 'radio'/headunit. Sounds really good, unless you're used to a car with bigger subs. The same way a 2270 feels fast unless you normally drive a 3.6.

I've seen/heard this in person. It's flat-out awesome.

Mark: I thought it was a 6" sub? You gave me shit about wanting to put an 8" in between. Is this the same one, or did you switch it out?

Oh yeah. Thanks for reminding me.

8" subs are dumb, get a 6" like me.

mark - you are using your crank sensor kit with the microsquirt on this turbo set up, correct? you are feeding spark voltage thru a distributor?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550

looks like i'll need a, microsquirt $375, tps, iat, 4 ls1 coils at $20ea, gm map $64, and mcmarks crank wheel, ebay turbo $150, etc etc

http://www.useasydocs.com/quickstart.htm

thanks,
jim

Just finished reading this entire thread instead of programming like I am supposed to be doing...great progress and results Mark....now to get back into the shop and make some chips!

Did heater boxes ever get built?

One of two, but it's not incredibly effective. Now I have too many projects to take a day and work on my own stuff.

Couple updates...

I got three cheap thermocouple temp gauges and ran them int the intake track. One is at the air filter, one is after the turbo and on is after the intercooler. It's been cold (no heat) so I haven't done a ton of driving, but one my hour test drive I got the after turbo temp up to 80C/175F. But after the intercooler it was back down to about 55C/131F (intake temps 50C/122F). We'll see how things look in the warmer temps of spring and summer, but I'm pretty psyched to actually quantify that my intercooler is working well.

I also had a growing feeling that there was a boost leak and thought my blow off valve was wearing out. The Bosch valve I'm using is often thought of as crappy. But through a LOT of searching a realized that the valve is very often installed backwards, and mine was as well. I could never understand why I was only seeing about 8psi of boost since the turbo is supposed to make a lot more. With the BOV installed backwards there was only an 8psi spring holding the valve shut. So above that the BOV was opening and bleeding pressure. I flipped it today, but I haven't test driven it yet. My laptop was dead and I want numbers when I go out. And my positive battery cable connection is flaky, so I need to fix that as well.

I'll report back tomorrow and let you know if I blow something up.

Great find - MORE BOOST!
Has anybody paid you to make another TIV turbo yet?
I am saving my money for another visit! My 914 is running good, better after a TPS tweak, but not 100% perfect.

A revision of the the map in post #131 should be interesting.

Drove it home tonight but didn't find the magic boost. time to look at waste gate control. I know from my undercar video that the waste gate is opening quickly.

Easy way to check how quickly and what levels are possible is to quickly pull the wastegate line off. What are you doing for a boost controller? I assume a Mac style solenoid and pwm from the microsquirt?

Right now it's just the built in waste gate. This is a Chinese knockoff KKK so I expect the wastegate is the weak point. Looking at the turbo smart adjustable controller (bleed off style). But I just realized maybe I should install the real KKK turbo I got from Mike.

The wastegate settings on the turbos would be the same I expect.
Turbosmart bleed valve is an easy fix or if you have a spare pwm channel on the microsquirt then use that and a boost solenoid for the best control.
Do yourself a favour and just unplug the wastegate and plug the boost line. Go for a drive and watch the boost. Just remember the only think limiting the boost will be your foot.
Only do this for testing.

Mark,

What you do differently if you had to start from scratch?

The '73 I am getting that has the bad motor supposedly has a Kerry Hunter header on it...hmmmm, and it already has a megasquirt on it....

I don't think I would do anything differently. It's been great for a long time now, and I enjoy it every time I get in. It's a long slow learning process, but so far the minor changes I have made here and there haven't made much difference. So there haven't been any big mistakes to correct.

Loved reading thru your thread, can you post some pictures of your coil setup?

Installed the high amp alternator today. Laughably, I did that whole upgrade mostly because I was seeing a lot a variation in battery voltage (via the MicroSquirt logs). But the alternator wasn't the problem. Tried a different battery. That wasn't the problem either. Started checking the relay board, pulled and reinstalled the fuel injection connector, and all went back to normal. So I did all this work and it was just a corroded connector after all.

I also resealed my exhaust.... Hallelujah! Btw, I never 'got' the tip about annealing the copper exhaust gaskets, until this time. Holy crap, I should have listened to everyone a LONG time ago. So much nicer. So much quieter.

Can't blame you for doing the upgrade. I have similar symptoms showing on the factory gauge. Very annoying. Glad you found the real issue.

This may have been asked already, do you plan to offer this type of setup to the public?

Never as a loose collection of 'bolt on' parts. I'd be happy to build a setup for someone, but it would be build-to-order and also dependent on the rest of my work load. You have to get the fuel injection and that's around $3k, the turbo and exhaust fab work would be another $2000-2500. If anyone is interested, they can PM me.

Just realized maybe you're talking about the alternator setup. Same caveat, but the price is more reasonable. The alternator itself is in the $300 range, plus shop rate for making the modifications to the unit, which would be in the $200 range.

Mark,
As far as the turbo is concerned, I think you've proven the concept. Let's build a new engine and bolt on the turbo. That way you can customize the cam grind, get heads that work really well with boost...
I can come down for build days!

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Seems to me that a well designed turbo system would find a home among many on this board. My only issue is the cost. It would seem to me that the easiest way to control some those costs would be to keep as much of the original system as possible (D-jet/L-Jet). I'm not sure how boost effects the MPS or if it's necessary to use alternative injection systems. When I had a 930, which was K-jet, I placed an Andial unit on the intake which activated the cold start valve for boost cycles. Could this be done? Andial is not around any longer but would something like this work?: http://1jzmerc.com/hks-faq/accessories/hks-aic

Basically cheers on you mate for wetting our appetite but find a way to make this work economically so I can forget about the 2270. Wait a minute? Don't you have a separate thread on "engine choices"?

Now that I finally have room in the shop for my car I made up a work list for the next few months. This is phase 1.

Everyone knows you cannot sell a turbo Type IV engine

Congrats on the progress!

True that!!

Great thread! Probably the best Turbo 914 thread on the web, thanks for documenting it.

I have a 75 914 1.8 that I am seriously considering doing a Turbo conversion. What would you say a safe level of boost and approx power a stock 1.7 or 1.8 street engine can support and be reasonably reliable without abusing it?

Im familiar with setting up and tuning stand alone FI systems, just not clear on what the stock engine will support when tuned properly/safely.

8psi...

Good question; what determines the ultimate boost ?

Crank it up until it blows and then you know to go a little less.

Physics and math?

Thanks for the response? About what power would 8 PSI make on a stock 1.8? Just trying to get a rough idea.

7ish hp per psi is a good number to on something like our older less efficient engines.

While that sounds small , the increase in torque is what you are really going to enjoy and use.

Going to be difficult to turbo the L-Jet on that 1.8.

+45 - 60

It makes a stock 1.8 feel like a 2270. I say that under this authority. I’ve owned a Raby kit 2270, and I’ve driven McMarks turbo.

Yup, torque is the big benefit. But think about the RPM range you're driving in most of the time. My car basically makes the most power in that range, so I can feel it taper off above 4500rpm, but that's okay with me. It's got greatly improved acceleration where I really use it.

I've run up to 12psi at times. You'll need to run aftermarket fuel injection to do it right. I prefer the MicroSquirt setup. The stock engine is a great place to start because they're relatively easy to replace if something blows up. My car has a stock 1.7 in it. But I'm eager to build the replacement engine that still based on a 1.7 but has a few tricks thrown in to make more effective use of the boost.


When you run more boost, you get more heat. That's the short answer. But the heat can manifest in multiple ways. You could experience normal Type IV failures, such as valve failure due to heat. You can experience loss of compression and potential head failure if the combustion gasses are leaking past the sealing surfaces. Even if all those are holding strong, you may experience detonation/pinging which if left unattended can break/damage any and all parts of the engine (pistons, rings, rods, crank, heads, etc). But you can also combat the heat by using intercoolers, water injection, or other tricks. So like most things with engine design, there's no firm answer on how much boost you can run. And not many people have done this, so you're sort of always breaking new ground in the Turbo Type IV world. You won't have anyone to tell you you're on the right path. You just have to do your own research, and go for it and see what happens. And that right there is basically why I started with a 1.7. If my entire engine blows up tomorrow, I don't have much $ invested in that setup. So I can afford to push the boundaries and try some 'dangerous' tuning because I don't have much to lose.

What kind of boost did the Ray-Jay provide ? IIRC, 914rrr had one on the blue car

No idea.