Present, and accounted for. Just watching. I've been here the whole time.

$1000 to blast and powder coat tin???

Awesome

Time then for first call/ Reveille !

Beautiful work Jake. But none of my cars are worthy to put your engines in.
I will just have to learn and listen and admire how the big boys do it.

It can be said that nobody is born great at anything, we have to learn and have a drive to become great.

What would you say has given you such a drive to become so great at what you do?

Asperberger's Syndrome

Awesome

Time then for first call/ Reveille !

Beautiful work Jake. But none of my cars are worthy worth to put your engines in.
I will just have to learn and listen and admire how the big boys do it.

It can be said that nobody is born great at anything, we have to learn and have a drive to become great.

What would you say has given you such a drive to become so great at what you do?


Fixed it.

I went high on everything for expertise, attention to detail, specialization, that sort of thing. Also lumped a lot of broader stuff in together. This would include like cleaning the shroud and other parts and also straightening tin which is a pain to do right and always required.. It's all a lot of dirty ass tin/parts to clean blast and coat so yeah, that's what I'd charge

Its not even close for a comparison to the topic at hand: Raby engines/ Value

Its almost 3K off on the head assemblies alone.

But what we are building isn't composed of off the shelf components, so these price comparisons reflect nothing of any real substance, since realistic comps are not available.

The engine below is the end of an era. Moving forward it'll be pretty much impossible for what we create to be mimicked, copied, cloned, or etc. I tagged the line 14 months ago, and this is the last, of the last. One more is on the dyno now, but when these two are done, a whole new experience waits ahead. Horsepower STARTS at 200, and its available off the shelf with zero wait time, 100% complete, fully developed, and ready to install. It can be delivered faster than it takes for the check to clear but you won't be paying me for it... I'm going back to ONLY dealing with the machines. More later.

Click to view attachment

Awesome!

Just trying to get there from the bottom up. A lot of people can't even think of how an engine could cost so much. It all builds and builds, every little detail. I forgot the whole ignition system starting out. It's like when you build a computer on apple's site, checking these boxes and you have a $50k computer.

It's inspiring, the level to which you've taken it working with the type 4 motor. Like Steve Jobs of the type 4 world I'm glad you're still setting the high standard, figuring out ways to find/build what's needed.

Thanks. Component quality remains the #1 issue with building an engine at this level.

Luckily the following that comes this way appreciates what we create enough so we can manufacture, and have others manufacture quality components that keep the Raby engine going strong today, and tomorrow.

The overall success of my company and others I am partnered into allows these parts to be made, both logistically, and monetarily.

When some people ask about components, I tell them that some of whats inside this old engine was made at the factory where the Boeing Dreamliner components, and also for the Mars Rover were made, they kind of wonder how in the hell we did that.

Interested in the more to come part.

It will come in time.. Till then, I'll enjoy a break.

No matter, quality costs be it suspension components, body work, paint, interior, engine, etc.

The trick is determining what your needs really are. If you want a track car that is going to get beat up, no need for Scotty B paint job, if you want to just take occasional casual drives in your teener, no need for a Raby engine.

Please note I said need, not desire or want, which we all know the latter frequently drives our decision process... And it's nice to know that we have suppliers who can cover all of our needs, desires, and wants!

I agree. Too often, desire and want come from the wrong roots. I see bad mistakes made all the time because of influences.

I have become a "dis- salesman"... I tell more people that they don't need what we create, than the other way around. Sometimes they listen.

Thats why I don't need to talk to anyone moving forward!!

Wondering which way this new venture will go? Will it be a business model that strives to put a RABY in the hands of common folk at a lower price point because of the anticipated volume of Sales? Will quality control suffer? Or will it be on the similar trajectory as now. A very high price point, fewer available consumers due to purchase price.

Hmmmmmmmm

And the beat goes on.

It will NOT be cheaper.

Quality will remain the same, but all engines receive Nickies and CP Pistons.

Only 15 engines will be built per year. When that year's engines are gone, they are gone. No orders will be taken, and the engines won't be bought from my company.

It won't be generic at all, and I've been working toward this for 5 years. It's aimed mostly at the 356/912 group that want it tomorrow. The 914 applications will have some engines allocated as well.

Jake do you ever see your company making a entry level 2.0 liter for us common NARPsters?

Thanks

Ok Jake, I'm tired and retired. The fact of the matter is that you are making the same numbers you made years ago. Your still selling a carburated motor.. You don't make any parts, you bolt them on and tell all of us that nobody makes good parts. You're sourcing them from somebody. You just hold down the knowlege base so you can sell your 15 motors/year.

I pulled my 2270 for an update After you blew me off for at least 8 weeks in the early 2000's about rebuilding my motor. I was done. I'm not begging anyone to take my money and give me what I want when I want it. You helped me. I learned about aircooled motor building, but frankly I don't like your style.

I'm willing to face off my 2270 against anyone of your customers at any 2017 event.

Point them at me.

Carlos

And you wonder why he blew you off? Lol.

OU812,
Luckily for the vast majority of the following theirs solid resources for simple engines like you mention. It's not something that captivates me enough to offer, and it's kind of boring. We all like challenges here. Not to discount the desire or need of stock engines, though... Hell, my own 914 is bone stock engine wise, and I plan to keep it that way, simply because it runs fine and I have enough projects.

BTW- The 15 engines a year are already sold to whom will be distributing and handling them.. It's up to them to sell them to end users.

Actualy Mark, I blew him off, I'm not begging anyone to take my money. Read more carefully. Is his dyno number the same? Does he tell us all we are dopes and have no clue? Does he sell yesterdays product today at a premium? Does he have a dog in the fight to keeps us in the dark?

I don't. This is my hobby. The more money in every teener fanboys pocket for something real makes another car that avoids the crusher.

I promise to use a 2270 air-cooled motor, not my s4 project. If your a believer, put up your money and face off, otherwise put a sock in it
Did you get a discount to poke at me?
Carlos

FWIW- Mark didn't buy an engine from me, he received my proposal and then decided to put a six in the car. Good for him, thats what he wanted.

Fellas, Welcome to High End Porsche Engine Building!

My 911 Engine Builder gets $50k+ for his full rebuilds - I just sold one of his motors with PMOs for $35k and it was a deal of a lifetime.

Air-Cooled Guys are not a Dime a Dozen any more, and when you find them, VW guys will out pay us cheap ass 914 guys - just a fact!

It's one of the reasons (beside profession ) that I have been doing stuff with the GM LS motors - they are are cheap and there are a lot of people working on them.

If you want the Ultimate 914-4 Motor, go with Jake, he is the Guy!, a Great Guy in Person - different than how he comes off on-line, a MARINE! (Semper Fi). I won A/X in a one-off drive on his motors,incredible Shit!

I just want to see how long you resist swapping out the stock motor.

Me? Hell I have had the car a year, and it remains untouched except the wheels. I did change the oil once, though. Thats why I bought that car, because it didn't need anything.


Always appreciate the times we get to see each other.. I'll be at Petit again this year, same place as always.. Stop by.

High end Porsche building:

This 4.1 sold for 50K, I am building another like it now, but with EFI for 85K, and have one more on the books for a March delivery.
Click to view attachment

Time is time, whether I am building this, or a 2270 T4, it costs the same, and my life doesn't come cheap. Thats what you are buying.

It was a tough decision but yes, went with a six. Jake was very professional and I would always recommend his services to someone wanting a top of the line engine.

Thanks for the kind words.. More people do not come this way than do, so I am pretty good at dealing with that :-)

Great Info my friend!

What most don't understand is that Good and to a upper level a Great Engine Builder is in great demand, with a backlog of orders. If you were a Builder, would you build $50k motors or deal with a bunch of whiners that don't even want to spend $5k

10-4,

It is quite obvious most of us will never be able to invest the kind of money your current engines require.

I think I will try my own rebuild on one of the 1.8 liters I have, at least then if I mess up it wont be that big of a deal...not sure if I will use the Factory FI or some Solex carbs that also came with the car. It will be my first rebuild of a air cooled so It will be plenty Captivating for me..........

I have a DD-214 I guess my service is less honorable

It honestly has zero to do with money.. Not a single damn thing.

Tonight, and most of this week I've been working on a VW Bus that I built the engine for in 1999, it was one of my early Camper Specials. I've been taking care of that vehicle, for it's original owner for the past 24 years. I was a kid sweeping floors and doing oil changes at a local shop, and this bus was one of the first I was trusted to even tune up... When I opened my shop, just after that, the owner bypassed the other local shop and believed in me.

So I stopped all the Porsche activities on my schedule this week, so I could work on one old Bus that was in dire need of help, since I haven't seen it since 2001.... Thats the last time it was tuned up, fuel hoses changed and etc... Its logged 120K and didn't even have a tight valve. Its a miracle it did;t burn down!

So, its not about money...

Well, that is old fashion Service,the American Way!

Better then stock but still stock


You got the market cornered on that

And i happen to prefer that style my self .

The only thing i dont get is how many of these

$ EXPENSIVE type 4 s are in

Cars that are still rusty

Because if someone approches it from the stand point
Of do a rotisserie restore on the car 20ish $k

And a 20ish $k engine

Thats a 40 thousand dollar budget

but beyond the customer service, a business has to look for opportunities. My 911 Builder has not touched a Mag Case 911 in years because he can't warranty it. He has shifted to higher end Aluminum builds that I and the normal hobbyist can't afford. In a regular business model, there should be somebody to fill the Void left behind, but at what cost?

For the anti-Raby or high end built Type IV, price out a custom built LS motor, it will be in the 5 digit number range. Sure you can get a crate motor, but a custom built motor is going to cost you.

And no I don't have a Raby motor nor do I plan on getting one...

Don't like him or his prices? Move on, pretty simple it seems to me.

I'm doing a Mag cased build now... Nothing wrong with it if you make all the upgrades, and then some.

Whats driving these demands are the desires for original cars, with original engines that'll live through upgrades.

Hell, I used to never plate hardware, today every engine I build has all the hardware plated, and I reuse 90% of the old stuff, because its better than new. I have a very rare, super early 930 in my shop now that I built the engine for last year, and the restoration has just been completed. The rest cost 400K, the engine cost 40 of that, and that was dirt cheap. The car and engine were horrible, having sat outside since 1983, in the open.


My engines go into all types of cars, and most of them are NOT 914s. Of the 914s, most are like Joe's I pictured earlier, its a solid car thats not perfect, but driven.

Yeah, except the T4 is a Volkswagen engine, not a Porsche.


Maybe a great deal for a Porsche motor, but not for a VW. You may want to think that's a Porsche motor in your 914, and that's your prerogative, but you exercising that prerogative is going to cost you those Porsche prices... for a VW motor.

It's called a NARP for reason, so how does paying real Porsche prices for a NARP engine make any sense?


So you don't think you can get an equivalent T4 built by a VW builder if you offer him $20K? Really? Easy enough to test that.

On the other hand it's your money, meaning you can do whatever you want to with it. I have no dog in this fight, whatsoever, so for me this is actually kind of entertaining.

For the first time ever, its entertaining to me, too. If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at will change.

BFD! Lots of us have a DD-214. What's that got to do with anything here. I was just going to keep reading and enjoy the sniping, but that comment hit me in the wrong place.

You just sound like a great big crybaby

I dont get this obession with getting your money back from what you buy. Not everyone is restoring their car with the intent to resell or get their money back. Including the puchase I have about 30k into my car not counting my own hours. And I still havnt touched the longblock or gearbox. For me its a hobby. After my wife and family have what they need my hobbies can have all the money thats left... and no I'm not superrich but I do work hard and people who make their living building engines should make money too....

Now I'm going to finish breakfast and then drop my 2.0 that we found to have a dodgy #3 intake valve on the dyno only a few weeks before I hoped to be driving the car after a three year restoration. I'd love to have a Raby engine and over time I could swallow the 20k bill but add shipping to Europe and a 30% import tax its just not doable.
Luckily we've got some great engine builders over here too. But they're not cheap either.

Oh well. Have a great day/night. Time to get my hands dirty.

The days of the CSOB are waning. The beauty of this site are pulling together to keep these cars of the road. That was the original intent of the PCA. Full circle.

Think what you want, but I know the 2.0 in my car is a Porsche

from Hans Mezger
Click to view attachment

Totally agree.. We've been building more 914 engines than any time in the last 10 years. The two I am finishing now are both destined for the 914 application.

I love cars, but I also tend to spend money wisely. The collector car market has proven to be a place where a solid investment can be made, but like anything, you make your money on the front end of deal.

I'd much rather have my garage all of cars, as to have money in the bank, or stocks. A few years ago a friend and I formed a partnership and got our dealer's license, pretty much just to make it easier to own a collection.

Done right, the enthusiast can buy and build a car, then turn a profit in the end. I bought my Testarossa in need of a Major back in 2013, since then it has more than Quadrupled in value. The same has happened with most of my 911s, and my 356, too, just not quite as extreme as the Ferrari market. The 914 isn't there... YET, but the tide will carry it up, just like the 912 did... Just like the 2.7 911s finally did. I could easily sell the 914 for double what I payed for it, but I like it too much. Thats my problem, and why I have 30 damn cars and military vehicles.

BUT if I wanted to only make money off the cars, I would have already sold them... The peak of the market has come and gone, and its leveling out now. Thats why Jerry listed his cars recently, when I saw that, I knew what he was thinking.

BTW- The quote from Mezger is WRONG! The main bearings were never decreased in diameter, the rod bearings were.. That honestly wasn't a wise decision, since it increases journal overlap and weakens the crank. The 2.0 crank is a 5mm offset ground 1.7/1.8 crank, and nothing more. Not sure where that quote came from, but its clearly incorrect. All T4 main bearings were 2.361" as standard. Further, when developing Ion Nitriding profiles for these cranks we had to carry out destructive inspection of 1.7/ 1.8 and 2.0 crankshafts. The materials are exactly the same according to Stork Metallurgical Services who did this work for me in 2003. I still have the report in my old file cabinet.

That's not only wrong, it's also totally unconvincing. Altering journal sizes isn't "designing" a motor. The 1.7 and 1.8's are pure unadulterated VW, the 2.0 is a 1.7 with improved heads and machining difference in the (exact same) crank.

If you insist you need to pay Porsche prices that's fine, I can't think of anyone who will stop you. On the other hand the original question was about value, and if you do accept the NARP fact then you could actually benefit from it being a NARP, with lower-than-Porsche prices. And turn that so-called negative into a positive. Just a thought.

I agree! I don't post much and this is somewhat OT, but in the spirit of karma, I want to say that my 1973 2.0 WOULD NOT EXIST if it were not for the amazing people on this site and their talent and willingness to share their expertise. I'm strictly a hobby guy with a day job.

Specifically:
Chris Foley who created, made, and was nice enough to make available both his improved oil pressure relief valve and a MPS diaphragm kit that kept my 042 MPS going.

Mark at 914 rubber who has provided more stuff than I can remember and notably his front targa seal is the only reason water does not pour in. (Including throwing on a pair of taillight seals free after I ordered a trunk seal as he knew that was a problem also.

Jeff Bowlsby for an outstanding wiring harness, saved Djet for me. And for his endless knowledge in posts.

Paul Banders for his Djet pages, where would we be without them???? (at least me)

And, Jake Raby, for being willing to sell a 9590 kit before the old type 4 store closed. Great Cam, lifters, pushrods (love the zero lash). Great valve geometry articles, etc. 2056 going strong.

Building the 2056 opened my eyes to the seemingly endless variables (and opportunities to screw it up) that these motors offer. The 1947 59 ford flathead I'm working on now is way more straightforward.

And all the widsom shared on the boards regularly by many others, some not still with us.

Without all of your help my 914 would still be DOA. So all of that represents value, much of it available gratis. Thanks!

I'll start this out by saying that I have maximum respect for Mr Raby and his craft, and wish I could be that good at something and make my career out of something I love. However, I personally would never buy one of his engines only for the simple fact that my personal philosophy for my personal hobby is to do everything myself that I possibly can.

That said, any question about his pricing being too high is ridiculous for the very fact that people are buying and he has a substantial waiting list for his services. Obviously his quality, reputation, business model, etc is on point or people wouldn't be wanting or buying his engines, talking constantly about his engines, and this thread itself wouldn't exist. Think of it this way: why do luxury car makers exist? Is there really any practical difference between a Kia and a Bentley? Or even better a Toyota and Lexus? A car is a motorized method of transportation, any real distinction outside of reliability, economy, longevity, practicality of use, etc comes to the sociological and psychological aspects of art, status, etc. People know when they buy a new Mercedes that they will never get their money back out of it and will "lose" more money than if they bought a Camry (which matches the Benz in all categories of practicality), but still they do. Why? If a Raby engine is not worth the money, why do any of us drop $10k+ on an old 914 (that would be worth $7k) when you could buy a Miata of nearly comparable performance, better reliability, whatever for $3k that would stay worth $3k...? If your only concern is making money on your projects/hobby, watch Fast and Loud and see how to cut corners, then watch it again and see how they use their current fame to garner extra high prices. Then compare that to Mr Raby who can ask and receive more money for a build than other people because of his fame, which is actually based on a reputation of extreme quality, unlike Gas Monkey or most of the luxury car makers. It's a simple example of supply and demand crossing into and the art economy. Raby engines are one of those rare commodities that cross all of the lines: prestige, quality, performance, etc. Any artist, business, etc would be lucky to do what Mr Raby has done. Why make Dusenbergs, Cadillacs, etc when the Model T owned the market at a much lower cost? That's my $.02

I do things myself too.. I don't pay anyone, for anything as a general rule. The only thing I can think of that I've hired someone to do in the last few years is repair my septic system, and build part of my swimming pool.. I did the rest after the liner was in. I don't pay people to do things, because they can't please me, and I know that... Half the time I barely meet my own standards :-)

Moving forward I no longer have to give a damn what anything costs. I don't want to know, and don't need to know. I'll be able to build the engines without the hassles of keeping the customer updated for months at a time, and can pull the phone numbers off the site, as well as the email addresses. The site will hold info for the two engine displacements that are being offered, and thats it. Each engine will have all photo documentation during the build process, and the actual dyno power from that engine, with a video. I can cut hundreds of pages of content from my website, too.

Each year I will build ONE signature series 3 liter, 255HP street engine which I will sell directly. Thats one, and only one...

The machine is all that will matter. I can't wait.

Huh? My 214 says "Honorable"

At which point you will become that mythical being.

All about the machine? Like Jack Nicholson said in a few good men

"you can't handle the truth"

I think saying the machine is all that matters, simplifies and wraps up the package as you see it......But humans also need validation and collaboration, and you cannot get that from a machine.