Not many "investment" parts you can buy for your car...One can "invest" $3000 in the suspension alone for the good shocks, swaybars and bushings. How much of that cost it recouped when the car is sold?

To me at least, if there where 2 idenditcal 914's for sale except 1 had a motor built by local mechanic in a small shop and the other 1 had a Raby motor that was documented (the build and specs) I'd say the Raby equipped one is worth a good amount more money. Obviously not the full price of the build since nothing on the car used car is worth the same once installed and used.

When these last two "old program" engines are out the door...

I'll still be around here to hang out as a 914 owner... Just don't ask me anything about an engine!

The '73 Revenna green car I purchased last fall has a Fat Performance 2258 that was built as a turnkey engine, cost in 2010 was around $10k, dyno numbers were 175 lb-ft at 3,000 RPM and 155 HP at 5,000 RPM. As for investment, I purchased a stalled project, SOCAL car that has a very clean body, most mechanical systems were overhauled. I paid but a few grand more than the cost of the engine which only had a few hundred miles on it. For me it was a good investment, for the PO not so.

I'll pay for quality upgrades/maintenance, but not face value.

At that time, in 2010 I was charging about the same for that engine if someone had a core to build from. The guys at FAT are great guys and they are the only real competition that we have quality wise. We are friendly competitors and we seldom have the same customers. They do seriously good work on every occasion that I have had a chance to tear down one of their engines.

Lots has changed since 2010.

If you think about it- a US 3.2 six has 207hp. If you buy a rebuilt one for $12k and spend $8k on the conversion, Jake's $20k ready to run 200hp four is a good alternative. How long does it take most guys to do a conversion? 1-3 years in some cases. Some never get done.

We are clear on that....

How clear ?

Crystal......

Thanks Jake

With the cost of their respective vehicles through the roof, cheap sixes are hard to find... Today even the 2.7 engines are quadruple what they used to be. More and more cars ne d to go back to stock, or as close as they can get, to fetch the biggest cash return. That's driven the cost of the Mag cased engines up for sure. I recently sold a 2.0 T long block for 5k, which is insane considering it looked like it came off the bottom of the ocean floor, and was seized.

But keep in mind you are at the bottom of the power limit on the stock 3.2 versus the summit for the Type IV. My 3.2 with just a Steve Wong chip and free flow exhaust is pulling in the 230 HP range with torque up there also, the exhaust note is intoxicating, and getting upwards of 200K miles out of it before a rebuild is not uncommon. Plus I'll take Motronic FI over carbs.

However, I have to agree a Type IV swap is far more appealing than a 6 conversion and I have no plans to convert one of my teeners.

My 88 Carrera has its factory 3.2 fitted with almost 300k on it.. It's still fast and had only had a clutch at 100K. It's worn out, but with a Wong Chip it drives as you describe and makes 200 at the wheels on my chassis dyno.

I have another core 3.2 and plan to build it into my 3.5 next year.. Till then I'll just abuse it.

Again the issue with 914 conversions is the cost of core sixes and especially the cost of an engine build. It's going up every day with the rising values of tail draggers.

Ok a little OT, but With all of this engine and Machine talk along with performance for dollars paid, I have a alternative power source proposal .

Instead of a engine how about a motor? Instantaneous tourqe, imediate power, no shifting, no clutch.

Tesla has done amazing things with electromotive technology.

Seems to me the 914 would be perfect for this type of retrofit. It has numerous areas where batteries could be housed. The mid engine platform would work well with placement of the electric motor.

I have seen some different model cars fitted with electric motors and in some cases they kick the enternal combustion engines ass.

Has anyone tried this in a 914?

Yes it has been done. Do some searching and you'll find several examples.

Lots of electric 914's around. There's even a company that sells a kit. I was invited to a members house nearby who did a diy electric 914 to commute to work. It's a $10-20k price tag to do the electric conversion and that gets you a 100-200 mile range. Works for some people but not what I'm looking for in a 914.

Not really what I'm looking for either.
But I heard properly installed, traditional gas powered engines were no challenge for the electric power plants.

There's always the Suby conversion, at least it's still flat. My 2.5 liter with 150k miles is still running strong at 270 HP and 300 lb-ft of torque. Heat dissipation is an issue with the turbo, but NA is still the 200 range. A Suby 6 conversion is also attractive to many.

However, I'll stick with my Type IV, it's part of the character and attraction to me as these are fun cars not DDs for me.

As for the comments earlier about the Type IV 2.0 being a Porsche engine. Well, sure, Porsche modified it, but they certainly started with a VW engine and kept much of the design intact - not the first time or last time Porsche dipped into the VW engine parts bin...

Take a ride in a strong 4 or a 6 before you repeat that statement. All these different engines and motors have their place but repeating internet statements makes people sound silly.

Nothing silly about it......unless the you tubes showing electrics on the drag strip cleaning the clock of a funny car and side by side comparison of performance data is fraudulent. Ok I will admit it is new technology and something I'm not interested putting in my cars......but soon it will be a much more viable alternative.

The data is pretty incredible......if the electric motor has the juice they are pretty hard to beat in shear quickness. Longevity and driving range (batteries)are the two areas that seem to need further development. Oh and then there are those dreaded thermal events.....but I guess that's nothing new for a 914.

Say it ain't so!
Say it!

180 mile to Hershey last month at 70+ most of the way, followed by a spirited 75 mile "World" drive and then another 30 miles of running around that day. And my car weighs in around 2100 lbs wet. Can electric do that?

Sure straight line acceleration is awesome for electric, but endurance and weight are not their strong suits, let alone the cost of batteries (which in of itself is still a dirty industry from what I have read).

I really like electric power.. I love torque and nothing beats electric for that... I'd love to build a Diesel- electric powered VW Bus.

You want the truth.... you can't handle the truth!

After reading this, maybe a Raby motor would be the perfect motor for my next and last project.

Had a opportunity to drive a Tesla last month and it was quite the experience.
Very quick, well balanced and great fit and finish.

Very little as far as maintenance intervals, pretty much just the normal wear out items like tires and brakes.

Pretty cool product. Didn't like the Volt near as much had more of a preis feel to it.

i

I mentioned the batteries and duration issues in the post you replied to. It's not a perfect science.....but saddle up its on its way!

A buddy of mine had a Volt. Parked it in his sloped driveway. 20 mins later, something shut off and it started rolling backwards by itself... ran over a 5 year olds leg, who was airlifted to Stanford, and is luckily OK.

Just another POS design from the bowtie IMHO, but the Tesla is the real deal.

Lol LS has torque and power.Its so linear...

It ain't so.

Spending a pile of money is the easy way of solving things, so there will ALWAYS be space for CSOB's. But you have to be creative to be a CSOB. Resourceful. And accept you'll suffer for your craft. So it may wane, but as long as there are artists it will never disappear. Never. So let me just say, it ain't so.

So true. And wasn't the question about value? Brand new LT1 from GM, 460 hp, 465 ft/lbs, all aluminum and DRY SUMPED, all delivered to your door for less than $9000. Jegs 19329997. I'm doing an LSx motor in another project... very, very impressive. Again, brand new, 460hp, dry sumped all aluminum, for less than $9000? Insane.

Bwahahah, This is the first funny thing I have seen you make Jake, and it's good to see you are self aware. The "I'm a Marine" line only goes so far. AIRBORNE RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!! ;-)

We bought a LS3 crate motor for the risky business 928 project. 530 hp $7500 then $2500 for all the engine management , ect. Ordering the engine is a non event, it shows up in a couple days.

Value is my 2004 80,000 mile 5.3 ssr motor with ls1 coils, injectors and intake.
Chopped wiring harness factory ecu 4 wire hook up.

350ish hp
3000.00 $


Why buy new when there so many good used motors?

I apologize ahead of time for doing this to you, but my WRX motor, 250ish hp and the same size/format as a VW T4 motor, was $600. Great deal and a few years ago now, but hey.... CSOB, right? So do I win the value race? Do I win? Do I win?

My 2056 build was made possible by this forum and many of the key contributors discussed in this thread, either directly or indirectly. There were times when I thought I was crazy, never having touched an aircooled Porsche/VW motor before but having wrenched on my own stuff for years. I took a mostly safe conventional 'proven' route and the project turned out well. 3500 miles into my build and the motor is running very strong.

As has been discussed throughout this thread, VALUE is in the individual billfold. How much do you want to spend? how much do you have to spend? Is $20K money well spent on a Raby produced motor? ABSOLUTELY YES. Would I do that? Probably no.

Here is why
$ - Original Case
$525.00 Machining, Balancing, Boresight Costs
$1,275.00 Remanufacture Cyl Heads
$150.00 Modified 1.7 Rocker Arms
$160.00 96MM 2.0 PISTON & PIN - Keith Black
$200.00 96MM Cast Iron CYL - EMW
$39.00 96MM RING SET 1.8, 2.0 K/B - Hastings
$8.00 .060 CYL SHIMS
$135.00 WEBCAM EMW G CAM 287 DUR. X .430" LIFT
$41.25 WEBCAM ALUMINUM CAM GEAR & Bolts
$64.00 SOLID LIFTER - Scat Performance Lubealobe
$45.00 26MM FLAT OIL PUMP & cover
$65.00 Silverline Main Bearings
$68.00 PUSH ROD TUBES
$66.00 CHROMOLY CUT TO FIT PUSHRODS 3/8
$25.35 Viton pushrod tube seals (16)
$1.24 Oil pump nuts mm; With Nylon Insert
$2.06 Oil Sump Gasket Set
$8.50 Reinze Oil filter & sump seal
$194.00 Mahle-Wizemann 911 Swivel Foot Adjusters & Nuts
$25.00 Oil Strainer & gasket
$1.95 Cam Plug
$76.00 Valve Covers - Aluminum Ribbed CB Performance
$25.00 Oil Filters (5)
$35.00 Mahle Cam Bearings
$35.00 Mahle Connecting Rod Bearings
$55.00 Reinz Engine Gasket Set
$2.00 12mm Nuts (8mm Thread), 12 Pieces
$18.00 ACN Flanged Racing Intake/Exhaust Nuts, 8 x 10m
$17.88 Hose Clamp; 12.5-14mm Range; 9mm Width; 10
$31.95 Under Tins and Tins Screws

ENGINE $3,395.18

That's My Long block cost. Sure I started with a good case and crank, and rebuildable heads which lowered my rebuild cost, but even adding new heads, I am going to be under $5000. I didn't use nickies, but this build uses a proven P&C kit. I still have the original P&C's. Stored for posterity.

Even if I totally flubbed this motor, and even if it explodes, I'm way ahead of the game $$ wise. I LOVED doing the build, would do it again, and the $16500 saved was spent on paint, a killer exhaust rebel racing suspension bits, and all the other things my total gut and rebuild. More importantly, I REALLY enjoyed it and am in fact planning another build and thinking about sourcing parts for a megasquirt 2270.

But all that said, if I was going to purchase a motor and had to choose between a 6 cyl conversion or a $20K Raby Motor for my 912E, I would do the Raby Motor. WHY?

1. Proven 100K reliability and performance
2. Weight distro for handling benefits
3. Keeping a 4cyl

In the end its your car, do what you want.

You win but its all about what you enjoy driving. I prefer driving a V8
You like 4 bangers.
Just comparing Apples to Apples
I have 6 gears so ultimately I win lol

Jake said he loved torque and horsepower........

I'm not a Generic Motors fan... Now that I've finished my 356, in ready to start on my Dad's (RIP) old '54 Chevy 5 Window 3100 truck.. I could easily go down the road of the LS, but then the truck would be like all the rest. Instead, I am keeping it 100% bone stock and will do some internal mods to the old 235 CI straight six, including PEFI. If I make 25-30 HP over factory I'll be happy.

Hell, if I were going to do an engine conversion in a 914, I'd fit a small turbo shaft engine. Lightweight, powerful, insane, and of course, it's not generic..... You'd need quite a fuel capacity, though.

Jake - you can't turbo a 914

That 235 straight six reminded me of the Clifford research motto.

"Six in a row will Go!"

My pops just finished up with his 53' Vette "Blue flame six"

Yep... I love a straight six, no matter what it's in. I contemplated putting a BMW E46 M3 straight six in it... But it's way too original for any of that, and my dad bought it new. I grew up in that old truck, and he drive it daily till 1991.

I have a Blue Flame cylinder head and intake that I plan to fit to this old 235.

I have built two TY4 motors using all the parts from the TY 4 Store ( now at LN Engineering ) I have a 1911 in the 914 and a 2056 in a 912E. Both run flawless and the 2056 in the 912E has torque to spare. When I ordered the parts from Jake I believe he speced a different cam for the 912E (2056) that had a little more torque because of the added weight of the 912. I would suggest the 2056 to anyone!! Al

Didn't ask about cylinder tin values.....

Cylinder tins cannot be machined, ported, blueprinted or stroked in any appreciable matter to alter performance or longevity.

My question had to do with value of modifications derived from a RABY engine rebuild.

Thank you

You did ask about value. He wasn't actually talking about cylinder tins, he was telling you about mark-up, and a pretty good example.

[/quote]

But and its a huge Butt, Didn't VW come first. And wasn't Porsche a derivative of Volkswagen manufacturing? If these statements are true don't you think it's a little snooty and uppity to forget Porsches roots? The engines and tranny's are definitely not in any bugs that are stock, especially the 2.0 liter I don't believe any of the coach work on the Porsches have a badge saying "Karmann" the disclaimer on the top of 914world home and forum pages says the words Porsche and the crest are trademarks of Dr Porsche. I just don't agree 914's are just as much a Porsche as 911's are they come from the same liniage. And that is VW
[/quote]

Get yourself a copy of the book "Excellence Was Expected" by Karl Ludvigsen. The whole story is there in bloody detail.

A brief summary of how Porsche and VW (and Audi) were in bed with each other..

Late 60's; The 912 is being discontinued by Porsche in anticipation of the car to obsolete all 911's.. the 928, looking for a replacement entry level car

Audi: Looking to update it's image of staid "Concrete Salesmen's" Cars (Jeremy Clarkson.. Top Gear) they want a sports car.. commissioned design of 924

VW: Looking for replacement for Karmann Ghia.. want a "Sporty" Car to take advantage of the first mass produced electronic fuel injected engines in the 411 and 412 models with "big block" (my words) 1700cc displacement

At the same time, Lotus introduces the "Europa" and mid-engined street cars are becoming the rage.


Handshake deal between VW and Porsche.. Porsche.. you design the car using as many "bin" VW parts as possible. VW, you build car at Karmann factory. Build SOME body's and leave out suspension and engines.. Porsche will fill in the goodies for a limited run of 914/6....

VW President dies during the initial startup of the deal. Cost of 914 bodies to Porsche from VW climbs much higher than original agreement.. makes no economical sense to continue (the 911 entry model is only $500 more than a 914/6.. and NARP!!!)

Has to be your most elegant post I have seen yet. Nicely put. Not that I can afford it.

A markup on a tins value is easily ascertained whether overpriced, Markup and or value of a modified type 4 engine not so much....9

The issue with the complaint about the cost of cylinder tins is why I GAVE the Type 4 Store to LN Engineering in 2012. What the poster probably didn't consider was the fact that I really didn't want to deal with him, and gave him a go away price, BUT if he was willing to pay it I'd take my time to find some PERFECT tins, so I could have 1/2 of a chance of pleasing him.

Its also why I am giving away the opportunity to sell these engines as well. Still not sure exactly how that will work, and I don't care. As long as my phone doesn't ring, my inbox doesn't get filled, I don't need to deal with marketing BS, and I can do my thing, I am happy.

The modern human is a special breed, and I simply cannot understand the mindset, or the way people both expect, and demand things. My place is in the middle of no where with a tool box, doing what I love.

That said, the market has changed a lot in the last few years. Its been very good that the vehicle values of all Porsches have gone up, and with that, came the tide that brought the 914 values up as well. Some may argue that its a bad thing, because they can't afford the cars anymore, and I do get that. What has been good is the rising demand forged quality components again, and engines as well. This has been the case with all the Porsche models, not just the 914. As a developer I see more and more demand for things that we used to take for granted, like special tools, and etc, and even my engine rebuild (hands on) classes. I now have people begging for 914 engine classes, hell, thats a miracle!



Thats exactly how I feel. All craftsman do the same thing, but people just do not understand it until its put into context. This is especially true today, where everything is automatic, or associated with a keyboard.

My engine is, and will always remain, 100% built by hand.

Same reason we are getting away from customer ordered cars and going to cars built on spec and then sold by a 3rd party. Just tired of customers. Most are cool, some are a nightmare, the less the phone rings the better.

Exact same thing I am doing.

I'm glad that someone shares my feelings from a first hand perspective. Do you think that its worse now than ever before? Do you find that people HAV E to find something wrong with everything? It can be a review with 19 positive statements, but they feel that they HAVE to throw that one "but" in at the end with something that "disappointed" them.

This thread is a little like 10 pages of people trying to take shots at Jake simply because you either can't afford or won't pay the price of admission...

Supply and demand dictate price, I promise you others are willing to pay or he'd be going the other direction entirely in one way or another.

I've always wanted to put a Raby engine in my car because it simply makes sense, I just hope they can be had when my time comes.

Flame on...

You think it's hard with an engine, try a 40 year old Porsche. No matter what you spend. It's never going to be perfect. Never.

But we make the best of it and try to have a good time working the crazy.

Yep.. The more it costs, the higher the expectation. Cars are worse than engines, that's why I don't sell Porsche's.... I just buy them. One day when it's time to sell the collection, I'll give that opportunity to someone else, too.

The whole thing about the duopoly and demand is true, but if these engines could not sell for what they do, I'd just hang it up. In every instance where I have tried to do things "lesser" it drives me nuts and I just can't do it. At peak we built 80 engines in one year.... I could easily do that many again today if enough quality parts existed and cores weren't worn out. The 12-15 per year is where I'd rather be, and I can build the majority of them myself.