Aaron: THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keith: I'm thinking that at least part of the problem is that I don't have my VSS hooked up yet. I'll do that tonight if I get a chance. Then I'll check codes.

Andys: I had been thinking about using cardboard, but thanks for reminding me about that. My focus so far with respect to cooling has been all about the negative pressure side. Having a diffusor or suction vent under the car was always in my plans. Thanks for the tips!

-Tony

i know i'm talking about apples and oranges but this data may help....

i was having creeping temp issues and checked all the usual issues with V8 cooling systems. (no, i didn't use renegades radiator. yes, i'm a rebel)

after all my little mods to bring the temps down i tried simply removing the hood so there would be zero exhaust resistance.

the results were excellent. so i'm driving my bebe around without a hood till fall when she goes back into hibernation. when spring time comes she'll probably have some leading edged lip hood similar to our friend wbergtho with the LS6 powered white 914.

best of luck.
roger

Here's what I'm doing on my LS1 conversion, though it's unfinished and untested.

Andys

tony, gimme a call. bumpers are in corona....

Keith...did you happen to use SmallCar's harness conversion or was it a do-it-to-youself?

Ed

Tonight I picked up the bumpers at Aaron's place. Got a ride in the beast, and WOW. That's a 914!!! The suspension is awesome, the engine sounds great, hauls ass, etc. The array of headlights is truly impressive. Those rally lights are like laser beams.

Got home at 11:30, so no time to try messing with the bumpers or anything else for that matter.

First off, pictures of the modified engine bay lid complete with fans. This lid and fan wiring is far from finished, but it is for the moment functional which is really the most important part as I figure out the cooling system.
For instance I haven't had time to flatten out the second grill section....

And now the awesome Getty bumpers. These are some fine piees of work. Haven't test fitted them yet, but they are really really well made.

One issue I need to resolve quickly is how to attach the brackets to the bumpers. The bumpers each came with a pair of fiberglass pieces made for attaching to the car, but I'm not certain how to attach these to the bumper with enough stength. Any thoughts?

Lastly, more detail of the part that needs attaching to the bumper.

Here's an idea you can consider. Bolt the brackets to the car so that they are properly located. Then put some bondo (small amount) on the front of the brackets where they meet the back of the bumper and position the bumper (hold it in place with heavy tape, etc.) until the bondo sets. Then, take the brackets loose and fiberglass over the bracket/bumper joint to further strengthen it once the bondo dries.

Just a thought.

my suggestion was do the same with JBweld and go glass it in later.....

mount the bracket, put bumper in place then drill two holes each side through bumper and bracket, put wood screws in to hold bumper and bracket, then remove bumper and bracket together, then bond the bracket and bumper together off the car, both surface between bracket and bumper and over bracket and bumper, remove screws and fill holes.

Big thanks to Jeff (Jkeyzer) and Royce (Bondo) who drove down today to help me finish up the car. We finished mounting the bumpers and Jeff fabricated and installed a flap in front of the radiator to attempt to create a low pressure zone at the radiator exhaust.

I gave them both noisy rides around the neighborhood and the cooling system worked fine. Jeff noted that the best part of the exhaust on this car is that at idle it purrs like any normal car, but then when you step on it, its like a racecar. Both commented that they could hear it blocks away.

Hopefully it makes it tomorrow. I need to test it on 405 first, and then I'll make a decision as to whether I drive it, or not.

-Tony

This morning I took the car onto the freeway for the first time. After warming up, the temperature creeped up to 225 or so and I decided to abort. It was early morning, I had gone maybe 5 miles on the freeway, and I figured it was not going to work out. So there is much work to be done yet before it it highway worthy, but think I'll be able to work it out.

Also figured out my VSS problem. First, I'm only getting 3 volts back from the sender. Second, I have two magnets on my CV joint, and this Hll sensor that I am using is a latching type, where the output goes high for one magnetic polarity, and then low when a magnetic field of opposite polarity crosses the sensor. Since I have one magnet of each polarity, I am getting just one complete pulse per revolution. Per section 2-7 of the Impreza factory service manual, the correct input to the ECU is 4 pulses per revolution of the front differential. So this means I need to unglue one of my magnets and glue on a total of eight to give me the correct number of pulses.

So the question remains... is it the low voltage or the incorrect number of pulses? If the ECU gets too few pulses, will that cause it to think something is wrong because I never go fast? Or will it just think I'm going slow and not care? For the voltage issue, it could be that the logic-high threshold on the ECU input is set above 3 volts. In all electronic systems I've run across, 3 volts should be enough to trigger a logic-high in a 5 volt logic system. However it could be that for noise immunity they keep the threshold higher. Either way, experimentation of one, then the other will tell me which it is.

For cooling, it is time to start going through the list of techniques previously posted. First up is a small lip behind the targa bar.

According to T H O M A S, (who spoke with the owner of this car), the addition of this tiny spoiler cooled his 6 cyl Porsche engine by 30 degrees!
(photo taken at 2001 German Autofest)

-Tony

bummer tony....

i guess just drop the G for the renegade proven system.... and go flog the crap outta it.

i musta missed you at GAF

I will tell you why later, but I will NEVER buy a single thing from Renegade Hybrids. Not after what happened today. Nor will I ever reccomend them to anyone else.

-Tony

what???

PM me -

Torny,

Apart from the mounting brackets, how was the fit and finish on the getty bumpers?

The finish of the bumpers was quite good. I haven't ever bought fiberglass parts before so I don't really have anything to compare with. The gelcoat finish was really nice, almost ready to get paint.

The rear bumper required justa tiny bit of trimming to get it on. I used a copign saw, a file and some sand paper to fix it.

Royce (Bondo) shimmed the rear brackets slightly to fit, but otherwise it went together fine.

I'm very pleased with the bumpers, I think they are really a good value.

-Tony

how did you glass the brackets on? pics? how did the boat style porthole exhaust workout?


AA

I didn't take any pics of the bumper process, but Royce did. He's going to post them here isn't he

To install the bumpers, we bolted the brackets to the car, sanded both mating surfaces, and used some 2-ton epoxy to hold the bumpers in place temporarily. We then taped the bumpers to the car in the correct posisiton and let the epoxy cure. After a few hours we took the bumpers off the car, and layed some pieces of fiberglass over the joints, slathered with epoxy resin. Royce noted that epoxy resin is prefered over polyester based resins, beacuse it doesn't shrink as much. Its harder to find, but one of the benefits of living in LA is that a fwe miles down the road is Plastic Depot, conveniently open on Saturday mornings. They even had carbon fiber in stock. mmmm. carbon fiber.

Anyway, after the reinforcements cured, I bolted them back up to the car. The exhaust holes haven't yet been cut. Along with the cooling and electronics tweaking, thats one of the last major things to finish.

-Tony

badass tony. sounds like you are well on your way to being finished....

Ok, here are some pictures!

What about Scott Thacker's bottom scoop method? It sounded like he didn't have cooling issues, but I don't know if he had a temp gauge or not.

Tony if your avatar is a picture of you there is a picture of you in the Sunday New York Times with a story about blogs,that I didn't get a chance to read.

Paul F.

No, the avatar is not me... thats Napoleon Dynamite from the movie of the same name.

Regarding the direction of cooling... Scott Thatcher uses a scoop under his car and pulls the air through the radiator and up out through the engine bay lid. He made it from Massachustes (I believe) to California and back last year during spring, along with a pretty decent beating at Willow Springs and had no cooling issues.

I'm trying a different approach. I want to have as little as possible (ideally nothing) hanging below the car. To do that I have to draw the air from above the car and out under. Getting that airflow to happen is challenging because of the low pressure zone created behind the targa bar. It is however the direction of airflow that the OEM engines used. As well, it eliminates picking up hot air off the asphault. For now I have sufficient cooling for driving on streets with 4 fans (2 on the engine bay lid and two on the radiator).

However when I take it on the freeway, that low pressure zone seems to be causing me problems. To fix this I am planning on adding a small spoiler behind the targa bar that will shoot air down into the engine bay. Secondly, on the bottom of the car I'm going to fabricate a large diffuser which should help to suck air through the radiator.

I really don't know if all of this will work, but its something that hasn't been done before and if it does work would be yet another option for conversions.

-Tony

More fans, more fans!

You remind me of the professor off of South Park, " I have created the perfect 914 with 4 asses. That 914 has only one ass, it is of no use to me.."

haha ^^ that's awesome

also, how about some more pics! hehe

how about reversing the fans on the freeway?? Let the low pressure work for you when it is there, and draw cool air from above @ low speeds???

Doesn't cost anything to try it

BJH

Hey Tony, I am incorporating a roof scoop to break up the flatness of the top. It works well on coupes (Exige) but a challenge on targa cars. A flap will divert the air down when needed and straight through when not...at least that's my "functional" excuse

Tony....

I don't if you've thought of this yet, but have you tried running any of the super coolant additive stuff in your radiator fluid. I don't remember which one it was but I know one guy I talked to at Napa a couple of weeks ago that has a turbo'd Acura that's not close to stock who say's the stuff he uses dropped the coolant temp by 28 degrees.

fyi..jacked the car WAY up and rolled the engine into the engine bay last night. Trying to mount 'er up tonight.

Ed aka fat73 and a few jacks away from W9R1

Tony,

Very nice job on your conversion. You'll get through the issues. Remember that technical difficulties are something that engineers purposely design into everything made in this world so we need more engineers to figure out the issues.

A question about your cooling issues. Is the overheating due to recirculating the hot air from one side of the radiator to the other? I guess this is why the air cooled engines have the tin and gaskets to keep the hot air from re-entering the cooling system.

Before my red 914 was wrecked, I was going to follow your lead on conversion. I like the placement of the radiator in the engine compartment. Now with the green 914, I'm not sure which direction to go for more power: Suby, Massive IV, or 6.

Spoke

BJ: I have thought about doing a reverse fan test. From the experience of the two others (Scott Thacher and Evan) with engine bay radiators, a scoop is necessary on the highway. It would be an interesting test though. A test that Bondo mentioned was to leave the engine bay fans (not the radiator fans) unplugged and put a volt meter on them to see which way the air naturally goes.

Felix: I'd like to see what kind of scoop ideas you have. I've been thinking of using some kind of scoop like racecars use (opening near the windshield, and a tunnel that goes back) or just a simple fin spanning the width of the roof, just behind it.

Ed: I think you might be talking about this stuff: http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm
??? Congrats on the engine-in-car. Its the first major step. Firing it up is even more satisfying. Moreso than the first drive even.

Spoke: I don't believe the problem is recirculation of hot air, but insufficient flow of cool air. I don't think that the radiator exhaust is feeding back on itself, but I think the only air getting to the radiator at high speed is warmed already by a combination of radiative engine and exhaust heat, and maybe a little blowback from the radiator exhaust. What I really need is a good pressure differential across the radiator. At speed I need positive pressure on the input side, and a vacuum on the output. A leading edge flap and diffuser are my tentative solutions for generating a low pressure zone, and a lip/air deflector above the engine bay is my idea for the positive pressure side. The diffuser will aid in isolating the air pressure from above and below the car as well. (the above is pure theory)

-Tony

I think Ed means Redline water wetter. I've used the stuff in my conversion and I have had a similiar experieance with around a 20 degree drop in temp. It used to cost $6 but now it's more like $10 for a bottle. I have even seen it at pepboys. You should try some Tony,,,,

-Rob

I think you can also get some air flow from the sides of the car if you scoop it. Sail panel scoops would look cool but if you want it to stay stock looking, it would compromise that. Perhaps like a Testarosa with the door skins knocked in for that purpose, there is much room in the rear fenders behind the doors for ducting.

Tony,

You being the crafty bloke you are, why don't you get yourself some vinyl tubing and make a couple of manometer columns...Two U shapes (or as many as you like) half filled with colored water zip tied to cardboard (with graduations) fastened to the dash, and run lines to areas you beilieve are the issue. This will give you an indication of where the pressure differentials are and at what speed. Duct tape and cardboard are your freinds...........You need to stop guessing. Someone needs to go through this excersize for the 914CLUB, and put to rest all the speculation. The results will surely end up in the "Classics" section.

Andys

I got back Thursday from Italy (gone almost two weeks) and brought with me a bad cold. Today I finally felt good enough to get some work done on the car, so I built a really cheesy spoiler to divert air from above the car to the engine bay.

Testing with compressed air shows that it does effectively divert air in the correct direction. So I have some confidence that at high speeds (say above 40 mph) there is now positive pressure above the engine bay.

I took the car out for a test drive and the cooling is still not sufficient. At freeway speeds the temperature still continues to rise, very slowly, but it still rises.

My impression right now is that I am not getting a real pressure differential across the radiator other than that created by the fans, which is not enough to cool the engine. Without some kind of ducting to the radiator I will not get positive pressure on the input side. My initial design was based on creating low pressure on the output side by means of a leading edge flap (as in the rubber 914 flaps) and a diffuser/venturi. I have still not constructed these, so its possible that those two items combined with the spoiler will be enough.

However there are two other problems I have noticed.

1. The cabin of the car gets really warm. The radiator output is blowing against the firewall ad heating it up a lot. Its like a giant heater behind your back.

2. The brake lines and proportioning valve are getting heated up. This could be solved by rerouting the brake lines, but would be a bit of a pain.

So issue #1 could possibly be solved by insulation but then I'd be adding weight...

I'm beginning to think that trying to push the air from the top to the bottom just isn't going to work. There isn't enough room to put ducting on the radiator unless I move the fans to the opposite side of the radiator. If I do this I still only have a small area for ducting (maybe 2 inches of clearance before I hit the alternator or crank pulley). Then I need to get air into the ducting which could mean a huge ugly enclosed area behind the rear windshield.

So my main concern with the scoop under the car is speed bumps, but I have come up with a possbile solution...

-tony

Sorry to hear you got sick, I lost several days productivity when I was sick..

Did Jes get sick too, how was Italy?

I found a diverter online similar to your proto.

I bought a roof scoop but probably won't use it. I'd have to cut into the targa band, figure a way to duct the air into the engine compartment and make it all weatherproof. I was brainstorming with a friend the other day and a retractible snorkel sounded interesting...




...yeah we were drinking

tony... maybe bite the bullet and go front cooling (ram air = good)

not necessarily an off the shelf kit tho.... thought about maybe twin radiators like a 996 or maybe a third one in the middle like a boxster S and TT 996's?

would look just like an oil cooler (middle one) and maybe duct the 2 outer ones into the fenderwell?

could be a slick setup... and if anyone could do it... you could

food for thought



996 third rad...

Shazzamm!

BBBBBBbeer cold.

DONE, and there is NO room in the fender for these ,

I thinkTony will make his design work!

Reverse the wires on the damned fans.... Let the cars aero help you.

It will NOT make anything worse, and will probably help alot for a whopping $0.00 investment.

BJH

more pics felix!

well tony, you have a pm.

and 1 thought might be to put a small reverse scoop under the raditaor, to get some suction going at speed, use the air flow under the car to help pull the air out

and i am still alive

scott

I've high jacked Tony's thread enough. Besides my daughter broke my camera so all I got is crappy camera pics. See it all in 30 days for the "reveal".

Glad to hear you're still alive, scott. Nobody else around here seems interested in Subaru stuff

Tony, hope you had as much fun in Italy as I envied you for. Bummer about getting sick.

About the exhaust, I think it's gonna be tough to overcome the tendency of air to want to push up from below. One way to check this, now that somebody has a tin-less driveable 914, might be to tie some (10 or so) little pieces of light thread about 4-6" long to the mesh of the engine lid. At highway speed, I'm guessing they should be waving around in circles but pointing generally up. Or you could just pour some oil on your exhaust and watch where the smoke goes.....

Purposely burning oil in a 914 - now there's something that's never been done before!

Looks liek I'm going to try reversing my airflow

Okay here's an idea for a scoop. I'm not going to implement this one right away, but eventually this might be a good way to have a scoop and avoid speedbump related death.

Basically the three blue bars slide over the speed bump and push the scoop out of the way.

-Tony

I know it's cheesy, but would an NACA duct in a location similar to this be effective? I don't know if this would be helpful or not, just throwing out ideas.

Oh, welcome back too.

Tony,

With that design you might want to remove the reverse gear in the trans

Andys