How's this coming?

I haven't tested Bruce's filled lense sample for heat yet because I was told all clear resin cast parts will "yellow" from UV. This would affect clarity unless they were replaced regularly but then even my Mercedes inj. molded headlight surrounds yellow over time. To prove this I need to provide Bruce with a clear lense for clear UV stable resin. This may work fine for for my purposes as a "show" car but should be sorted for production.

A prototype shop gave me some these lense options:
-injection mold = $$$$$$$ (not hundreds)
-CNC block of clear plastic = $$$$$
-vacuum mold a few sets from a plastic sheet then machine mount = $$
-they will estimate further once they get a sample lense

Finally got a fender to test mount the assembly, thanks Mark and Jon...

how hard to make a glass lens????

Keep us posted.

Im deciding on my car. (fg wont hold that big module but somthing could be welded from the side to hold it...)

Andrwe

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Sep 14 2005, 06:45 PM)

how hard to make a glass lens????

More heat, higher temp molds and fixtures, material more difficult to machine, more brittle than plastic...

although maybe a glass blower...

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 07:49 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Sep 14 2005, 06:45 PM) how hard to make a glass lens????  :confused: More heat, higher temp molds and fixtures, material more difficult to machine, more brittle than plastic... although maybe a glass blower...

cant you sand cast it????

or pour it into a large mold......

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 14 2005, 06:45 PM)

Keep us posted. Im deciding on my car. (fg wont hold that big module but somthing could be welded from the side to hold it...) Andrwe

It already has a U bracket, all you'd need is an L bracket on the body to mount it...

These are the fog versions that I'll mount in the bumper. Slightly different body and lense but the brackets are the same...

All the new cars have plastic covers over the HID lights. What are they using? Is the problem with material or proximity to the light source?

If the cover was a flat piece, it would be super easy and inexpensive to replace. I guess the problem with that is it wouldn't match the contour of the factory lens. So this begs the question....... who needs the factory contour, and who is OK with the CSOB flat piece that might need replacing if it yellows?

Just throwin' stuff out there.

Thanks Felix for working on this!!

Like the single piece windows, any chance of finding an existing "close enough" and cutting it down for this purpose? I'm thinking Celica GT-S or similar here.

Hey Jon, we think alike...

I had the same thought of cutting down Celica assemblies but they are still quite larger ~4" for the signal pod. Plus the profile didn't match.

Just like the side glass, I stared at alot of car's headlights in parking lots

I liked the stacked lights on Caddy SRX but they were also too large.

QUOTE (Rand @ Sep 14 2005, 07:03 PM)

All the new cars have plastic covers over the HID lights. What are they using? Is the problem with material or proximity to the light source? If the cover was a flat piece, it would be super easy and inexpensive to replace. I guess the problem with that is it wouldn't match the contour of the factory lens. So this begs the question....... who needs the factory contour, and who is OK with the CSOB flat piece that might need replacing if it yellows? Just throwin' stuff out there. Thanks Felix for working on this!!

I suspect Lexan or similar plastic material on OEM cars.
The pods are beautiful and prominent, why flatten them? My goal is to emphasize or add shape and form where possible.

Manufacturers have big budget, team engineered, 3D CAD designed, latest technology, DOT tested lights,

whereas I'm adapting available components in a very small area with existing shapes, and on a working man's time and budget...



...and enjoying it!

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 08:44 PM)

components in a very small area

This statement should be underlined, in bold, and large print. For your sake I hope the amount of space between the lamp and cover of most modern HID setups is by choice and not necessity.

The material that the sample is made of is suppost to be UV stable. That's why I wanted you to test it with the lamps your using. To see how it reacts to the possible heat/UV created by the lamps.

If it works I can move ahead with making a outside stock mold and then making a inside out of plaster/clay. Then carving the plaster/clay smooth. Then having it covered with ceramics.
This will give the clasic outside look with a clear inside (no flutes/lines) and be as thin as the stock lens.

The other option I thought of is with a glass blower. There is a high temp silicone that is used in metal casting. Make a outside mold out of it and then the inside part as described above. Then have a glass blower insert almost molten glass into the silicone part and stamp the glass with the ceramic portion. If this works this would give a stock clear glass lens without the flutes and lines. And a way to make replacement glass fog light lens....

The problems with this is how the ceramic & the silicone would react to the high temps of the molten glass. Also there is the problem of making the creamic insert.

As to sand casting....every imperfection in either the original or the sand will show up in the product. There is also the problem with molten glass being poured into wet sand (even slightly damp, which the sand has to be to hold it's shape) of the steam which is produced distorting the product making it unuseable. Not to mention how to make the inside smooth enough to be useable.

I've done sand casting...when metal is poured into it there are imprefections which are polished out later. One place I know of that uses cast metal pieces in their products receives them with lots of extra metal on them and then they are thrown into a "rock polisher" the size of a small car for several days to make the smooth enough to be used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with these lenses are that they are a one off...if you went to a commercial plastic lens manufacture and told them you wanted 100,000 pairs they would prob eat most of the mold development costs (or hide it in the lens costs).

Anyone want 199,998 lenses?

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 07:51 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 08:44 PM) components in a very small area This statement should be underlined, in bold, and large print. For your sake I hope the amount of space between the lamp and cover of most modern HID setups is by choice and not necessity.

For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover. My major concern is that they have enough light output and can be aimed properly for night driving.

The pod shaped lense is for aesthetics but one of the most challenging features. For mass availability, they would probably be still used as an alternative to colored signal lenses. You would have to be to use it for HID headlights...

QUOTE (GWN7 @ Sep 14 2005, 07:52 PM)

The material that the sample is made of is suppost to be UV stable. That's why I wanted you to test it with the lamps your using. To see how it reacts to the possible heat/UV created by the lamps. If it works I can move ahead with making a outside stock mold and then making a inside out of plaster/clay. Then carving the plaster/clay smooth. Then having it covered with ceramics. This will give the clasic outside look with a clear inside (no flutes/lines) and be as thin as the stock lens. The other option I thought of is with a glass blower. There is a high temp silicone that is used in metal casting. Make a outside mold out of it and then the inside part as described above. Then have a glass blower insert almost molten glass into the silicone part and stamp the glass with the ceramic portion. If this works this would give a stock clear glass lens without the flutes and lines. And a way to make replacement glass fog light lens.... The problems with this is how the ceramic & the silicone would react to the high temps of the molten glass. Also there is the problem of making the creamic insert. As to sand casting....every imperfection in either the original or the sand will show up in the product. There is also the problem with molten glass being poured into wet sand (even slightly damp, which the sand has to be to hold it's shape) of the steam which is produced distorting the product making it unuseable. Not to mention how to make the inside smooth enough to be useable. I've done sand casting...when metal is poured into it there are imprefections which are polished out later. One place I know of that uses cast metal pieces in their products receives them with lots of extra metal on them and then they are thrown into a "rock polisher" the size of a small car for several days to make the smooth enough to be used. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The problem with these lenses are that they are a one off...if you went to a commercial plastic lens manufacture and told them you wanted 100,000 pairs they would prob eat most of the mold development costs (or hide it in the lens costs). Anyone want 199,998 lenses?

Ok, I'll experiment with it this weekend. What should I look for, softening? I held it under a Halogen for a few minutes but I think it should be tested for hours, just not sure my porta-battery will last.

Did they even produce 100k 914's? I'll be surprised if you could sell 914 of them.

Hook it up to the battery with it assembled....put the battery charger on the battery. see if the heat it produces distorts it. It shouldn't yellow.

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 09:56 PM)

For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover.

Right, but do they get hot?

What if you raked the angle of the turn signal back about 10-12 degrees. you could elongate the hole and fit the low/high beam and turn signal at the top or bottom. It might flow better with your NEO design..I would be happy to find a fender to see how it would look. i think in California, as long as the headlight is 18 inches above the ground you are ok

Polycarbonate, aka "Lexan" is probably the easiest answer.
Low refraction, great clarity, (88% @ .125" thick), UV stable, easily glued, can be heat formed at around 350°F, soft enough to give without breaking.

It occured to me that the lense shape is roughly elliptical and an ellipse can be sliced out of a curved tube. I don't have the ideal diameter figured out yet, but I would guess around 3.5" OD, .125" wall Lexan tube. Cast tubing, not extruded.

Also, a lense that is taller or "rounder" (not as flat as the stock one) would achieve three things:
1. Less of an angle is presented to the light beam = less refraction.
2. Increased distance from the lamp = less chance of heat distortion.
3. Stronger, more spherical shape.

Big Doug

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want.


-Tony

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 09:22 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 09:56 PM) For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover. Right, but do they get hot?

I'm not following your questions, all light has heat

I think Big Doug has a heck of a good idea....

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM)

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want. -Tony

Let's say you can buy a "really" nice 914 for how much it would cost. Can it be amortized with sales is the big question.

QUOTE (Graphikhaus @ Sep 14 2005, 09:30 PM)

Polycarbonate, aka "Lexan" is probably the easiest answer. Low refraction, great clarity, (88% @ .125" thick), UV stable, easily glued, can be heat formed at around 350°F, soft enough to give without breaking. It occured to me that the lense shape is roughly elliptical and an ellipse can be sliced out of a curved tube. I don't have the ideal diameter figured out yet, but I would guess around 3.5" OD, .125" wall Lexan tube. Cast tubing, not extruded. Also, a lense that is taller or "rounder" (not as flat as the stock one) would achieve three things: 1. Less of an angle is presented to the light beam = less refraction. 2. Increased distance from the lamp = less chance of heat distortion. 3. Stronger, more spherical shape. Big Doug

Very nice thinking! Would cast be optically clear enough? I agree the lenses are quite flat. If I were to start with a new mold or CNC, I'd increase the profile for aesthetics but then it may unfavorably distort the beam...

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM)

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want. -Tony

QUOTE

A prototype shop gave me some these lense options: -injection mold = $$$$$$$ (not hundreds) -CNC block of clear plastic = $$$$$ -vacuum mold a few sets from a plastic sheet then machine mount = $$

If you insert a decimal point and put a 1 for each $$.......10k for a injection mold to be made


+ you have to have a "original" to make the mold off of

QUOTE (GWN7 @ Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM)

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM) How about injection molding?  Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want.   -Tony QUOTE A prototype shop gave me some these lense options: -injection mold = $$$$$$$ (not hundreds) -CNC block of clear plastic = $$$$$ -vacuum mold a few sets from a plastic sheet then machine mount = $$ If you insert a decimal point and put a 1 for each $$.......10k for a injection mold to be made + you have to have a "original" to make the mold off of

Is that CAN$?

Let's see, if 100 of us put up $100 ea...

Anyone own an injection molding company?

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 11:07 PM)

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 09:22 PM) Right, but do they get hot? I'm not following your questions, all light has heat

Well, you mentioned a few times that these were sealed units like it shouldn't matter how close the lens is to the cover you're trying to make. I'm thinking that they might throw off a lot of heat and that's why cars tend to not have them right up against the cover.

But really all this is bench racing that is keeping your from making any real progress. I sincerely suggest you stop listening to us (but please keep posting the updates!)

QUOTE

Anyone own an injection molding company?

yes actually... My father in law.... in Argentina.... where the peso is currently 1/3 of a dollar.....

-Tony

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 10:30 PM)

QUOTE Anyone own an injection molding company? yes actually... My father in law.... in Argentina.... where the peso is currently 1/3 of a dollar..... -Tony

Then what are we waiting for?

Quando?

Popped the bucket in the donor fender...

May start with another bucket to fit a signal bulb on top...

WOW.

Heck yea', Felix. Signal light in it too? Oh yea'...

Hey felix, out of curiosity, is your last name Zuniga

sweet! One is cool... I'd design for two...

but if one works, then heck. Lighter!!!

lol

keep us POSTED.

Andrew

hey andrew, is your friend's Felix's last name zuniga?

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 10:27 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 11:07 PM) QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 09:22 PM) Right, but do they get hot? I'm not following your questions, all light has heat Well, you mentioned a few times that these were sealed units like it shouldn't matter how close the lens is to the cover you're trying to make. I'm thinking that they might throw off a lot of heat and that's why cars tend to not have them right up against the cover. But really all this is bench racing that is keeping your from making any real progress. I sincerely suggest you stop listening to us (but please keep posting the updates!)

I appreciate the questions and ideas, I must not be clear enough.

Here's some specs:

The Hella Micro DE Xenon Driving Light offers the benefits from Xenon lighting technology in the smallest possible design. This auxiliary driving lamp uses a Xenon bulb mounted in an extremely small, sturdy and temperature resistant magnesium housing with a Magnesium FF reflector that virtually guarantees optimal light distribution. With high light output for more vision and additional range, the Micro DE auxiliary driving lamp shines a light color similar to daylight to help provide the greatest possible safety during night travel. Lens is tempered glass.

DE light technology
The DE (triple-axle ellipsoid) light technology’s principle is similar to that used in a slide projector. An ellipsoid as a reflector directs the light to a focusing lens that bundles it and projects it onto the road. A shield positioned between the reflector and the lens provides the prescribed cutoff. DE headlamps, a Hella innovation, are low in dazzle and are therefore ideal for low-beam and fog lamp use. Advantages in comparison with typical parabolic headlamps: Smaller dimensions, almost twice the light output, clear cutoff, and hardly any scatter loss.

I realize I'm "pushing" them for primary headlights...

I dont think so 944turbo....

but yet, I dont know his last name (at least I dont think I do)

Andrew

Unger

QUOTE (porsche944Turbo @ Sep 14 2005, 11:01 PM)

hey andrew, is your friend's Felix's last name zuniga?

After another member's harassment problems I've stopped posting my last name but no it's not Zuniga ...unless you are holding a fortune for him/me.

QUOTE (Graphikhaus @ Sep 15 2005, 01:30 AM)

Big Doug

I'll be damned! That is elegant, at least for a couple trys.

Congrats! You have clues!



M

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 15 2005, 01:13 AM)

QUOTE (Graphikhaus @ Sep 14 2005, 09:30 PM) Low refraction, great clarity, (88% @ .125" thick), UV stable, easily glued, can be heat formed at around 350°F, soft enough to give without breaking. It occured to me that the lense shape is roughly elliptical and an ellipse can be sliced out of a curved tube. I don't have the ideal diameter figured out yet, but I would guess around 3.5" OD, .125" wall Lexan tube. Cast tubing, not extruded. Also, a lense that is taller or "rounder" (not as flat as the stock one) would achieve three things: 1. Less of an angle is presented to the light beam = less refraction. 2. Increased distance from the lamp = less chance of heat distortion. 3. Stronger, more spherical shape. Very nice thinking! Would cast be optically clear enough? I agree the lenses are quite flat. If I were to start with a new mold or CNC, I'd increase the profile for aesthetics but then it may unfavorably distort the beam...

The only specs I have for refraction and clarity are for flat sheet Lexan, not tubes. The curve will impact both a bit, but 1/8" is thin.

Looks like they don't differanciate between cast /extruded in Lexan - perhaps I was thinking of Acrylic tube.

http://k-mac-plastics.net/polycarbonate-tubes.htm


"For the clarity of glass and the impact strength of metal, specify Polycarbonate Tube. Made from
FDA-approved ingredients, PC tube gives extraordinary design and fabrication opportunities. It can be machined, drilled, cut and sawed, and is easily joined with solvents and adhesives.  Weather Resistant, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Ratings and Food and Drug Administration (FDA)  Compliant.  Made from GE Lexan® 124 and 104."

Doug,

That was very creative thinking but as I visualize it, the cylindrical shape at the top and bottom will not taper enough. You could take a roll of clay and cut it OR if someone had a 3D CAD program they could simulate it...

Just curious if anyone has tried to do this??

QUOTE (cbenitah @ Sep 15 2005, 08:22 PM)

Just curious if anyone has tried to do this?? <a href="http://imageshack.us"></a>

white race car in S. America....

cant find pics..

What about glass lenses? They'd be clear and heat resistant. It isn't all that hard to slump sheet glass into a mold. Trimming it to size and drilling the holes would be the tedious part.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Sep 15 2005, 07:24 PM)

white race car in S. America.... cant find pics..

You mean this one?
i ment on a Drivable 914.. just mood the lights.. although i love Felix idea!

Here's my test set up, fully charged porta-battery, jack leg wiring, harness is actually virtually plug in play but I may have to extend some wires...

Houston, we have ignition. Ballasts have a whine at warm up but there also no engine sound right now...

The experimental filled lense from Bruce. It won't lay flat because it's not concave anymore.

Temps were measured by a meat thermometer thanks to Andrews but it maxed at 190F so...

Filled resin was soft and warm to touch after minutes. I had the lense mounted and light on for 30 minutes and after removing it, I could dent the filled resin and it would return to flat.

I may need to leave it off for night use and install a clear lense for day time and shows...

Maybe design a retractible lense.

I was wondering about the heat and how it would effect it. I guess the plastic isn't the way to go seeing the ones without the inside fluting would be thinner and subject to further distortion because of the heat. Most cars that use the projector type lamps have more space between the lamp and their exterior lenses. I'm guessing this lessens the heat that is transfered to the lens.

I'll see on Monday about the glass option.