you forgot the tranny ears. once the front of the motor is lose and bouncing around, there will be A LOT of stress on those tranny mounts/ears.

if they break, your motor and tranny will leave the sinking ship. if that happens on the big track, let say while you go over a burm, and the motor get's hung up on a lip, you can wave your rear end good bye.

if you're lucky, it'll "only" rip the trailing arms off your chassis. if you're not so lucky, remember those pictures of that ferrari broken in half? or worse ...

Andy

I don't buy it.

What, I'll be the first?

My motor should have fallen out Saturday.
The bar can't fail any worse.
The WHOLE MOUNT PLATE WAS SEPERATED!!!!


kt

Ok, I have kept outta this because I have no experience with installing a 6 mount...either style. However, this is getting rediculous....we all know that Trekkor will do what he wants until he proves himself wrong. There have been some cool/resourceful things he has done. However, in this situation, I would have to agree with the guys against fixing, using, or considering this mount bar system. The mere fact that you are racing the car seems to me a considerable reason to pass on the cheap, easy mounting system and go for the most realiable, proven, system...i.e. a bulkhead mount.

It costs money to go racing and a lot of that is saftey. While in this instance, the mount bar broke in a location that kept the engine in the car, what is to say something worse won't happen again. If you look at the failure, it occured at the weakest point which happened to be at the point where the bar is under the most torque loads. If you strenghten the mount in this location, you transfer the weakest point to somewhere else. I feel that this will place even higher loads on the engine mounts in the tub as they are absorbing all the load. In my opinion the design is flawed in that it is using the motor itself as a structural contribution to the engine mount...i.e. the torque induced from the offset forward. This cannot be overcome in this design and therefore should be avoided, especially if the car undergoes significant weight transfer and high speeds. If you are going to do something, do it right the first time and focus your time/energy on driving the car fast instead of worring about a serious incident.

-Britain

deceased equine......


you can leade a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


seems the water dont taste good to him

I found religion. Bought my Rich Johnson bulk head mount today. I will throw the dice for the rest of the season, but its going in my first opportunity.

Cool...sell it on ebay, some idiot will buy it and you can re-coop some costs!

Trek, if you need a reminder of what broken tranny mount ears look like stop by the house. Personally, I wouldn't risk a motor and a race prepped tranny just to prove a point.

But if history is any factor, your welder will fix it and you will run it. Hopefully, it doesn't cost you your driveline.

Looking forward to the pictures of the repair.

It's no big deal if he launches his motor...don't you know that SIX motors are dirt cheap and can be found all day long???

I'm kinda torn on this one....while the new bulkhead mount is the way to go, I too would want to take on the challange and fix the broken mount, I'd do it differently and not rely on welding as the final solution, my "fix" would involve a bolted together assembly

I'm sorry you ran into this bad luck. Trek

If you won't look at this issue from the standpoint of the grief another failure will cause you think about what might happen to other people. If you have a piece of equipment on your car that is suspect you should not race. You put other people at risk. Try to predict when that mount might fail next. You can't. Try to predict what might happen when it lets go again. Are you absolutely sure you will be able to control your car? Course workers have a right to expect that drivers will not put them at avoidable risk. The odds are probably 1000 to 1 that nothing will happen but if you can make that 10,000 to 1 or 100,000 to 1 by removing a part that is known to fail you must do it.

Sorry I'm coming across as holier than thou but if I was teching and I knew you had a suspect engine mount I'd fail you. I watched Craig (Camp 914) fail Bruce Allert for a stripped wheel lug. Another guy came over and said to Bruce it was Bruce's call if he wanted to run and Bruce said it wasn't safe. The other guy was trying to be nice (Bruce had driven a long ways to run) and both Craig and Bruce were right to disallow the car.

Fix it right and have piece of mind.

Dave

Nice to see so many level heads on this board.
As well as much concern for Trekkor and those he races with. Warms the heart...


Trekkor,

Here are the photos you asked for...

And...

Thanks for the pics, Micheal.

I'll take it!!!



The 7018 welding rod that we are thinking of using to repair the mount is rated at 70,000 PSI tensile strength.


Maybe I should listen to *everyone*.


I think we can overbuild the bar so it can't break.


What if there is a next time?


Hmmmm...



KT

You did your six conversion in record time, what's a Saturday (or maybe half a Saturday) to install a RJ mount? I don't understand why you are still considering repairing this piece of .

Because he just spent the Rich mount money on a roll cage

It's not about the money...

What is it about then?

OK, now I'm talking to myself.

Well, what is it about?

Good question.


KT KT

I climbed under my sixer last night and took a gander at the PMS bar mounted on my conversion. I agree that the bar design places a torque stress on the plate/welds as it is forward of the centerline of the stock 914 4 cross member mounts.

I don't plan on racing the car, but I may decide to do an AX once in a while. My question is: Should I trade out the bar to the PMS bulkhead mount (bolted) or just leave it alone?

The Rich johnson mount would be the way to go but my chassis is so clean and nice, I don't want to mess it up with welding. (Not to mention the down time - NO MORE JACK STANDS - at least for a while )

Opinions?

That may have been the reality check I needed.


KT

KT -

If I were going to race my car, I'd replace the PMS bar that I have, with the rich Johnson style welded bulkhead mount. Just my opinion. I think I just answered my own question - I think I'll put on the PMS bolted bulkhead mount.

Another thought -

I'll bet that the Stanford or Berkeley engineering schools could (would) be interested in doing a metal fatigue analysis for little or no cost. I would ask and then ask PMS if they would pay for it. I would be interested in seeing how the stresses are distributed through the mount and where the metal is most vulnerable.

If it was later in the season - it might be worth trying to patch the bar up, but I think patching it up and adding strength to it may take longer than doing an install on a bulkhead mount (based on what people are saying here). Also - it seems like the bulkhead mounts are easily avalable and not to terrifying to install - I would probably take the hit and go that way.

Plus I know how much 6s cost, so I'd be pretty nervous about breaking one. The subie engine I have can be replaced for $600, which isn't free, but is a lot cheaper than a 6.

Having seen the design flaw and how it relates to what I've observed with subaru engines I firmly believe that the PMS mount is a flawed solution. If I was doing a 6, I'd be using a bulkhead mount. Esp - since it makes the car closer to original.

You did ask ... just my 2c..... I wonder if you can guilt PMS into overnighting you a bulkhead mount so you can install it over the weekend (or friday evening )

why are we still talking about this?

EVERYONE said go bulkhead.

Just for another data point to this discussion. I started with the PMS bar when my 914 was converted to a six. It was the generation 1 bar and the car was track use only. On the first track event my transmission shifting became very difficult. Reason.... the PMS bar had bent dropping the engine and bar down on to the shift rod binding it. The bar was replaced with another and the same thing happened. After much frustration I went to a bulkhead mount and have been trouble free for years. If PMS says their bar is not for track use ...BELIEVE them.

I found posts #'s 38, 65, 114 and 171 to be most helpful.

Thanks

Especially if it's a dead horse ...................... The Cap'n

I beginning to think we're gonna spend more time talking about a bulkhead mount than it would take to install one.

trek i'll cut up your tranny ears, and you can just give me your SIX.

we'll call it even.

We've already done that...twice




Drive out here in your FOUR and we'll get started.


My welder comes over tonight at 7:00


KT

crap!

my FOUR doesnt run....

but with 250 dollars and a 1997 land rover, i'll be there by 6:45

b

This is what is on its way to me to replace my PMS bar.

I haven't added my 2 cents yet....

Lets see...proven..strong and safe or proven poor design and brakes....Hmmmm

We should call this pic "Now where did that motor go?"

I just wish he'd be consistant with his posts

My welder came by to look a the project.

He was horrified

"Pathetic" was uttered.

He's convinced they forgot to weld it.

As to the fix, he wants to use 3/32 cro-mo rod and TIG it on Saturday afternoon. Then we'll have dinner

He said, "piece of cake" and "it won't break".

We'll see.

I see myself also ordering an RJ mount and having an install party with Grant when he's ready. Two in one day

KT

In the mean time I will invent a diagonal brace that will make it impossible for the bar to move downward.

KT

chock another post up for the "dont hack it" regime.....

If you do attempt to repair the quick six mount, I would take a look at the other failure shown in this thread where the mount ripped the tubing just past the weld. You should print out that pic and show it to your welder for reference.

Your welder may decide to take a look at that weld as well and do some reinforcement.

hey trek, just in case no one has mentioned it yet, i'd rather go with a bulkhead mount instead of trying to fix this thing ...

Andy

Yes.


KT

I'd get one of Rich's

Wait... I DID get one of Rich's.

WWAaD?

I was just wondering...What do you guys think about the idea of me using a different style of engine mount other than the PMS bar mount I have and was considering repairing?

I heard they make a bulkhead style or something. Anybody heard of this?


KT

Might wanna check around. I heard Andy installed one of John Richardsons in his car and it bent the whole thing up when he welded it in...

Spit and rubber bands would be better than what ya had...prolly longer warrenty too....

Now we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous

i woulda thought the first 9 pages had you convinced. apparently not.

so, i vote bulkhead because eric shea did it, and he is my hero

Mr Safety say welder who also mechanical engineer can back up statement, "it won't break. Check his degree before put life on line.

That popcorn guy cracks me up...Why does he look around before eating?

I'm gonna try that myself someday.


KT

Trekkor,

I vote that you sell the 914 and buy a 911 GT car like me!

Mucho faster than a 914, handles better than a 914, and they don't break!....




Bill P.

(I go both ways....mid and tail! )

And Bill, who is it that is still building that killer 914? I think it is called the Beast or something like that.

Class A general engineering contractors are certified to weld bridges, refineries and high rise steel structures.

This is a motor mount. Let's eat!


KT