Just for clarification
this is not the new style.
I haven't read through the whole thread yet so this may already be clear.
but for those that aren't in the know

Right, and when you get it off the trailer, that (trailer box), needs to get painted to match your car, stripes and all!!!

Now that would be cool

Yea, and at Alameda, The Marina and or Stead you only have to go 20 or 25 feet till you hit the next divider (between the concrete slabs).

On the list


KT

Holy SH*T!

My newly purchased conversion has the PMS has the quick six mount (not the bulkhead mount). I am going to jack it up tonight and check it out!

Man o Man!

Rumor is that as part of the Correction Action Report, all customers that currently own the old style engine mount will be supplied with the following item to keep motor off of pavement in case of mount failure Available at Home Depot if you cannot find your original reciept.....

Click to view attachment

We talked about that


KT

Funny man...
ferg and I went up a couple of weeks ago to pick up a yellow car that had a broken 4cylinder motor bar AND broken tranny ears. Apparently a tow company had at one time moved the car and perhaps tied down to the motor bar...

The tow company claimed no responsibility, but the motor and tranny were being held off the ground only by a few wires, cables, and shift linkage.

We used those same homedepot straps to hold the motor and also hold the tranny up off the ground high enough to make it a roller again.

then let a different tow company flat bed it.
brant

I just want a reliable mount.

Jim wants me to send him my broken one ASAP so we can work out a deal that will allow me to run the next a/x in two weeks.

He has a lot of experience, I can see that.
I don't want to slam anybody.

If a new bar mount will work, I'm happy.


KT

Hi Trekkor,

Send Jim your mount. At the very least he can work with manufacturing on the failure analysis. I'd still go wall mount if you can wheel and deal for one.

Bill P.

I guess I need a break from wrenching.

If he sends me a new bar mount, I might be able to reinstall it without all the motor/trans drop and all that.

the firewall mount in any brand is going to require a ton of work.

maybe I should pace myself, skip the a/x in two weeks, set my sights on May 26th at Thill instead.

it's a bummer, that much i know.


KT

Just a word from a satisfied customer...

I have purchased almost all of my -6 conversion parts from Patrick Motorsports. They have all been very high quality and are performing well. Jim P. has been very responsive and attentive to my questions and orders.

I'll put in yet another plug for the firewall mount, though. It's simple and beefy, and I think a much better solution for a track car.

Easy boys.....

Bill, maybe you aren't the one who should be trying to lift his spirits, what with your recent Burb break in and the ongoing saga of the "beast"

Hang in there Trek. A good solution will come your way. PMS may even sell you a bulkhead mount cheap....Or better yet, get the stock mount from Grant.
I ran my 2.7RS-6 using the stock 6 mount for 5 years of track and AX duty with no issues what so ever.

OK, thanks for the laughs.

I was out side wrenching for a hour or so. ( it's OK )

Got the car off the trailer and up on stands and the engine supported back to the normal position.

Let's talk...

First, this design is good, and I have always like it due to it's simplicity and multiple bolt points, SIX.

The motor CAN NOT fall out...even with this catostrophic failure.

Here's why:

There is a cradle that the plate to motor bolts catch on. It only dropped 3/4".
The bolts would both have to shear off for it to fall! That doesn't happen.

Have a look!

KT

i just dont see why you bother with a BAR mount.

it seems like the half ass way to go - yes, a wall mount will take longer to get in - and the PMS will allow it to swivel down for repairs (good idea!) so why bother futzing with another bar but it wont break.......

DO IT ONCE>DO IT RIGHT

my .02

Now on the the root cause of the failure.

POOR WELDING

I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level.
My battery tray has more integrity.

The pictures don't do this low level of workmanship justice.

I promise to anyone you require. If I would have struck this part with a 5#hammer ONE time it would have broke.

Take a look ( If you can )


KT

I can see your point there Trekkor. From your pic it appears that those bolts would need to shear or bend to allow the engine to completely fall....
With that being said....the way that piece separated is really scary and a bit depressing. If the piece was truely welded inside and out along its complete perimeter, then how in the hell did the thing completely separate. You would expect to see some of the metal torn or bent in some way. Instead you see nothing but two basically clean pieces of metal. Very strange....It was almost as if the two pieces were never really completely joined by a good penetrating weld.
I agree with an earlier post that this portion should have been made from one piece of metal and then it would be resting on the bar if the weld came loose...no way for the motor to move down....only slight side to side movement.

That looks even worse than it did on the car.

I could have done a better weld than that and I haven't welded in years.
PMS has some serious QC issues with whomever they have subbed this work out
to.

That could have led to a CATASTROPHIC failure....

PMS should be sending you anything you want to replace this item...period.
Even though you bought the bar from Bill. It was sold to Bill as the second generation bar to eliminate this type of failure.
Guess that engineer missed some classes...

It's hard to see, but with that amount of area to weld on, that part should never come apart with any reasonable amount of penetration. These are chromoly right? Were they treated correctly after the welding?

It gets better ( I mean worse )

Please be seated

Look at all three sides of the mount plate itself.
"Where's the Bead?!?"


KT

Looks like a few tac welds to me... definitely not fully perimeter welded inside and out

PMS should be ing there collective pants right now.

NO penetration there...

I talked to my welding buddy a few minutes ago.

Say what you want, this IS the voice of experience, all his 32 years of it.

He said it can be stick welded back together with 7018 welding rod and no heat treating is required. He spit out some multi thousand PSI of tensile strengh. He will likely put it back together in my driveway on wednesday. I'll have him go over ALL the welds and check it carefully.

I trust this man with my life- period.


KT

I have no doubt that a journeyman welder can put this back together much better than it was before....like it should have been in the first place

My grandfather was a journeyman welder (he taught me when I was 12) and he could stick any two pieces of metal togther just about....

You are lucky to have a good friend with that kind of skill.
Make sure to take some pics during the welding and after it is completed. Will make a good primer for PMS.

Here is mine.

shoo thank goodness I have a FOUR.

b

That looks so much better.
Mine looks like they forgot to weld it.


KT

I think i could get better penitration with a twelve volt battery and some coat hanger ! Can anybody say quality control ? Or perhaps faulty design ? Or not !
OOOpppss That's just an opinion folks , and they vary ! don't cha know !!

That is exactly what I have been thinking....

I beg to differ if you know what your doing mig welding is just fine ( Key action words being " Know what your doing "

Especially if you don't want to start a car be Q or blow yourself up (Just a thought)

So glad I had ignore feature on, LOL


If this was a u-weld-it kit, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


KT

Ahem......


Gee, I don't know what to say......besides....

Ahem......
Hack, cough.......


PMS sucks.....

Sorry to see it happen but this is nothing new with this guy.

i would have to say that only god himself could help what will happen to the person responsible for that !!!!
WHAT WAS IT A 15 YEAROLD KID
damn who quality assures this product if its got my name on it i wanna check it, its my gettin kicked

I knew I could count on you Mikey.

To save on costs the Bars are not welded, they use JB weld to hold them together.... On second thought if they did use JB weld u may not have had the problem...

I'm here to help.

Life is too short to have to buy crap from a guy that doesn't back his product AND is an asshole.

Buy the good stuff and have an enjoyable experience.

Those bars have a history of failure. No dis on your motor...but it's only a 2.0. There are people out there with 300 hp sixes using that crap.....not only is the design suspect but the workmanship would have to improve to be labeled as shoddy.

I will be surprised if he replaces the bar or refunds your money. History shows that he won't. For your sake I hope he does....something.

BTW, the last thing I would do is use the same design bar as a replacement.

Consider that it's a COPY of an AA product....

If my welder gives it the thumbs up, I'm gud to go.


KT

Well, I am certified in Mig, Tig, and Stick..... or if you prefer GMAW GTAW SMAW FCAW and I would gladly hang my car from 1" of good weld.

I never said Mig was an inferior process, I said it has the disadvantage of being able to produce welds that look decent, but have almost no integrity. A VAST majority of guys with a Mig in their garage do not have the skill to produce high quality welds. I would rather see someone learn Tig, Stick, and Gas Welding, then move on to Mig. By then they know how to weld, and can get the high deposition rate Mig has to offer while still producing a quality weld.

With regard to this particular fixture, I'd prefer to mig it over stick, but some guys can work magic with stick, and I'd have no hesitation trusting it. If that's what your guy is comfortable with, it's fine. Tig would really be the best, but not necessary here.

I'm not trying to make welding out to be a black art, but any monkey can pull the trigger on a mig, and in an hour or so learn to lay a nice bead. Creating a structurally sound weld that you will risk you life on is an entirely different matter.

Well put


KT

Jeeeezzzzz


Mikey - took ya long enough!

M

I don't mean to rub it in in any way, but look at the welds on an RJ bulk head mount
Those are prolly the most beautiful TIG welds you'd ever see

If it's mild steel that shouldn't be necessary. That part does have a lot of stress in that location though. Since the outer mounts are not in line with the inner mounts there's a substantial rotational moment with stress concentration at that weld joint. Whoever designed/built/inspected it didn't understand the forces involved. Seems easy enough to repair. A small gusset in the top corner would mitigate the stress concentration problem.

I've had several contacts with Jim at PMS now to resolve this problem both on the phone and in E-mail. He is not dodging me or minimizing the failure.

Please understand that my goal is to get my car back on the road, not tear somebody down.
Jim is concerned with this part failure, you can be sure.

My other goal is to alert him to the poor quality weld work that may be slipping past any quality control that may be in place.

If my car gets back on the road and he can improve his product for future drivers, then all is well.

Sure, I'm mad about the welds and the potential risk I faced and the down time to fix the car.
I'm not mad at Jim. He has made it very clear that he wants to resolve this with me ASAP so I can make my a/x on May 6th.

Support the vendors,

KT

I think any person who has a part failure has every right to show the issue to the vendor. Of course, the intent is to not rub in the failure, but to point out a flaw to help improve their process.

I hope the vendor takes your positive critisism to heart.

Regardless, sounds like you've got the issue taken care of KT...

Tom

Like I said before. Where's the weld? I bet this was a Friday afternoon job - it got tacked together late Friday and then packed up and painted with the rest of the finished mounts on Monday morning.
I'm sure I don't need to say this but - you need to do your own CQ on anything you buy if it's failure would be bad.

> Jim Patrick called me back and said he has never
> seen his product fail like this. He was very nice to
> speak with. I think he was inda shocked.

What is he talking about?!?! This bar fails all the time. I know he's heard of many, including mine several years ago. Why is he still selling these?

-Steve

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