Here it is. Total seperation

Let's talk about it


KT

Ouch!

looks like bad weld penetration right there...
two pieces of metal should never break right on the weld.. if it was welded correctly....

So we can be sure that we're looking at the same thing, this is the same mount right?

They are way too big to be having stuff like this happen, and on multiple occasions no less. It's so much better to over engineer and over build from a safety and liability standpoint. Not to mention reputation.

In this case, the execution is very poor. They probably welded it and ground it clean for appearance. The initial weld didn't penetrate, and they cleaned off the only part that had any strength to it. On a structural application, I would be very reluctant to grind a weld for the sake of appearance. To me there is nothing prettier than a nice, clean, properly laid weld. That entire seam should have been welded on one side, with at least 1" welds spaced 1" apart on the other side. Personally, I'd weld it on both sides if there is room.

There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Nope, the other one.

KT

Did both sides rip loose. That is the first one of his new ones I have seem fail as a lot of the vintage racers are using them and no failures so far.

here's the bar from the website

KT

Do you know the year yours was made?

Mine is the 'newer model', but I do keep an eye on it.

I have a couple of ideas to reinforce it. I may need to do so on mine someday.

If you send it to me, I'll fix it for you for free.

Trekkor bought this mount from me. It is the new style that Jim Patrick sold to me to cure my previous issues with the older bar.

The failure looks the same as my original failure.

Sorry Trek.....

As John says, this is the first of the new style mounts that I have heard about failing.

It's hard to believe that it would be overstressed with the torque of your 2.0/2.2 liter. Something else caused this.

Bill P.

Those quick mounts have had a history of breaking.

Gee, that looks like I welded it...

It's strange that there's even a weld there. A stronger, and cheaper, way to fabricate that part would be to have the whole part other than the bar made as one pressed piece. This would be very unlikely to break, and even if the welds to attach it to the bar broke, they'd be resting on the bar. Lots of clunking noises, but nothing would fall down.

I don't know the year. But it is a total failure.

More pics...

Paging Mike Z.

Paging Mike Z.




M

There no penetration in that weld.

Seriously, send it to me. I'd like to give it a try.

I've been looking foward to Mikey's pleasant and dignified response to this since it happened.

Pretty sad when you are under a car and see this and the first thing that pops into your head is "Zois". ( in the Seinfeld voice, just like when he says, "Newman" )


KT

Thanks Joe, I'll keep you in mind. really nice of you.

My buddy might just be willing to drive up with his truck mounted welding rig and fix it on site. : welder:

It has to come out of the car to be repaired properly, I can see that very clearly.


KT

My laptop screen isn't the best, but it looks like it was welded on the inside. A nice filet weld around there should be super strong, someone just had no idea what they were doing. That's one of the dangerous things about Mig, it can look ok, and have no strength to it. When you are welding, it's plain as day when you get good penetration if you know what to look for. I don't think it needs to be beefed up so much as done properly.

on edit: I'd like to see them use a little thicker plate too, if we're being picky.

I just emailed pictures to Jim.

We'll see what happens.

Besides just welding, it should be stress relieved in an oven.

I have access to an oven that could do the job.

Trekkor,

This failure is much worse than mine was. I still had weld contact on the bar. Your's is a complete failure.

Glad to hear you are thinking of taking it out. You won't be able to do it right in the car. Pull the motor and clean it up.

Bummer dude....

Bill P.

nope, your picture is the new bulkhead mount, trekkor has the mount bar that uses the stock /4 motor mount points ...

Andy

Duct TAPE!

Sucks Trekkor. I'm sure the fixed version will work fine.

You need a smaller motor. Build a nice 1600 cc six cylinder.

Me too...


wonder what they're talking about?

I called them a couple of hours ago.


KT

If they're a good shop, they're probably talking about how to make you happy. Maybe offering to ship you a new bar and help pay for installation at a shop maybe? Just a guess, but a new bar should be on the table I'd think. That's not just a minor crack or anything. That's a near-miss lawsuit. A new mount would be a lot cheaper than a court date...

Only catch is you didn't buy it from them... Hmmm, tough one...

Trekkor, that sucks. It's a good thing it landed on the shift linkage, I hate to think what would have happened if it got all the way loose...

-Josh2

the tranny "ears" will snap off and the whole combo falls down on the concrete, the front of the motor get's stuck on one of the seams between the concrete slabs and your axles and rear suspension get ripped off the tub, that back of the car is going to jump high up in the air and the car comes down to a halt about 30 feet in front of your engine, transmission and axles.

Andy

Wow Andy, that's a pretty vivid description... I take it it's a first hand experience?

-Josh2

That would have been "a problem".

"Alameda, we have a problem".


I'm thinking about working on it NOW, as it is just hanging there on the trailer.


KT

not myself (i was just a spectator) and not a 914, but other than that, that's *exactly* what it looked like ...

Andy

Where are the welds? Looks like they forgot to weld it up. I just fixed a goof I made on my tubing bender that only involved 4 inches of weld and it was a major PITA to get those 2 pieces of steel separated. Lots of grinding and pounding with a BFH

I read the posts through several times and am still confused? Is this the early mount that uses the 4 cylinder mount ears or the later one that bolts to the bulkhead? The early design was flawed due to the long/bent tubes that allow the engine to twist and move and it is worse on a track car since the rear part of the car where the tranny is bolted is moving too. If it was the early one, I'd get rid of it.

As a side note, when the shop put the six in my race car, we used an empty 2L block and tranny to test fit things. When doing this the trand mounts were found to be off about 5/16 inch to one side and were modified so the engine was bolted in with no stress on the mounts, front and rear. You might want to consider checking that when things get calmed down and you have some time?

Dude! I can not believe they let that mount out of the shop

like that. Your really lucky that nothing worse happened, you must
have been four leaf clovers when that happened.

That's just wrong...

John,

Trekkor bought the mount in his car from me. It is the 2nd generation crossbar mount that supposedly addressed the cracking issue of the Gen I crossbar mounts. I had rewelded the old Gen I mount and was still running it in our old 914-6 when I sold it. Jim Patrick had given me a discount on the Gen II crossbar mount because he did not like the welding being done on the Gen I mount as per Demick's explaination.

I also bought the PMS bulkhead mount and would have sold that to Trekkor when I bought The Beast (which has the RJ mount already), but I had sold the bulkhead mount and I had not found any mention of failures with the Gen II mounts.

I'm just blown away that the whole mount came undone.

Bill P.

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

I don't understand why the idea of upgrading to a bulkhead mount keeps getting brushed off either. Is there a disadvantage to it?

"If they're a good shop .....................". That has NOT been the case in past failures. They pulled a "Permadoom" and told the unfortunate victim to take a hike. The Cap'n

Guys, come on.........
I did my 6 conversion in about 98....pre internet days for me.
At the time, it was widely held that NONE of the bar type mounts
were worth a shit. I had to get a Vellious bulkhead mount as RJ didn't have his done yet.....and wouldn't settle for less NOW......the effin' internet didn't fix them fuchin' pieces of crap......just more bullshit for the acceptability of them.

Zois is not always right, but he's spot on with these.....IMO.

The good news is he's not one to say "I told you so"

it takes work and costs more, but is clearly the right solution (LOL....)

rich johnson or patrick bulkhead

Jim Patrick called me back and said he has never seen his product fail like this.
He was very nice to speak with. I think he was kinda shocked.
He doesn't think think I should attempt a repair.

He has requested more pics.

Sent them.

We'll see...




KT

Thanks for the reply Bill. I didn't remember there being two generations of the 1st generation mount? Guess I am getting old!

Post the new pics please.

about 5 post up from your post:

"trekkor has the mount bar that uses the stock /4 motor mount points"

Andy

<best aussie accent> Good on ya mate!!

I think Jim is pretty on there. If the mount failed that badly, what other welds and/or materials are also suspect?

Yeah, that sucker's got to go. It's done. Seein' as you were gonna have to pull the motor to repair it anyway, might as well put a new mount in properly. After reading Andy's eye-witness account of a total failure, I'd pay for the peace of mind. Kindof like a friend of mine's comment about buying single layer nomex/proban driving suits. "The first time you see someone on fire, that three layer nomex suit gets REALLY affordable REALLY quickly...".

-Josh2

The pics are nothing special.
he wanted to make sure the the bar at it's lowest points, under the stock mount location, didn't strike something.

That's the only explanation of such a failure he could think of.
There are some light scratches on there, prolly from the install in my driveway.


KT

Engine/tranny mount failure

Click to view attachment

OUCH!

the pic.

Not mount failure. Bar hitting something hard enough to rip it from the mount plate.

I would have remembered that


KT

Trekkor,

I've always had great dealings with Jim Patrick on his products. I hope things turn out for you okay.

I really think you should go for his wallmount bar. But it's just my opinion.

Bill P.

"Wal-Mart" bar

KT

No offense, but there is no need for any other pictures. That is a manufacturing failure, pure and simple. Even if you hit something, and bent the bar in two, it should never have separated like that........... never. If the weld tore away at the heat affected zone, then you've reached the limit of your materials and you'd see that very clearly. That point of failure would be many times that ever experienced in actual use.

I wonder who PMS has doing their assembly, because they have some "esplainin" to do.