Wanted to start a build thread for my na suby conversion. The car is my newly acquired '73 2.0L fi. It is very clean, appearance group, 2nd owner, 88K. I currently use it as my daily driver.

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

I want to do a suby conversion because I believe the overall package will have the performance, drivability, and dependability I'm looking for.

EDIT: I've changed motor selection slightly and am also taking a bigger plunge by going with a suby trans, see Post #49.

Nice looking car. If it's as nice as it looks, a fairly stock, '73 2.0L FI is worth more as a stepping stone than a conversion car. Strictly my opinion, but I'd sell that car as is and find something a little more flawed to do the conversion. You could make some nice cash out of it and then increase the value of a 'lesser' car.

I've got no problems with doing a suby conversion, but with what we've seen in prices lately, a '73 2.0 has good value.

Could be, but how much less would a well converted car be worth, exactly? I doubt THAT much. He's getting a quieter engine, twice the horsepower, overhead cams, modern fuel injection, not needing to rebuild the T4, no oil leaks, never having to adjust valves again, or worry about dropped seats? For a thousand bucks? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal. In fact I think I'd be inclined to pay quite a lot more for a good conversion car, not less.

What was that? I think I just heard Jake groan.

Nice project, and smart to go NA. Good looking car, and it's going to be a lot of fun to drive.

That's not the point. As it sits, a '73 2.0 with FI is probably worth $5-7K; unless it has serious rust issues. A '73 1.7 in comparable condition can probably had for $3K. That's $2-5K left on the table and the suby converted 1.7 will be be worth the same as a converted 2 litre. It's got nothing to do with whether the suby would be worth the same as the 2.0.

Speaking as someone who will be in the market for a 2.0 (once the Mercedes sells), I agree. If the 2.0 is reasonably nice with the FI system intact, you'll find somebody who wants it. I think the best conversion candidates are the 1.8's, a/k/a the redheaded stepchildren of the 914 family.

pretty car
neat project
I kinda agree with the above

my uneducated guesses:
- stock rust free 1973 2.0 = 8-9K
- subaru conversion 1973 = 7k
-------------------
net loss of 2k plus the cost of the conversion


- 1975 (non running) 1.8 = 2k
- 1975 subaru conversion = 7k
------------------
you could pay for the new donor and the conversion costs by selling the 2liter, and then increase the value of the donor car by converting it.

of course I realize its not as simple as that. Your donor may need different interior work or may not have as nice of a paint job. It may even need suspension upgrades (although once you get bitten by the project bug, your probably going to do that to either chassis anyways)

brant

Could be I guess, I don't pay attention to used values that much. On the other hand I did just go over to e-bay and checked the "completed" 914 listings, and I didn't see that big a difference between 2.0 and 1.7/1.8 cars. There's a real big difference between running cars and crappy non-running cars though, no question.

One observation comes from looking at those e-bay cars. People running down conversions say they've seen lot of poorly converted cars. That might be because people who are trying to minimize costs start out with cars that are in poor condition to begin with. That obviously makes getting a good end result a lot more difficult. If you start out with a better car it may cost more in the beginning, but you also end up with a better car when you're done. And it appears that really good cars aren't that common, regardless of engine size.

Bottom line he's starting out with a good car, and is going to end up with a very nice car when done, at an extremely reasonable price. Still sounds like a pretty good plan to me. Not a perfect plan of course, but he says he'll throw in a turbo if he ever needs more power. That should fix it.

I'm not opposed to conversions, but your car looks too nice to cut.

Because you think you can do it cheap, isn't the right reason to do it. You should plan on doing it "right". And then determine how much "right" will cost. Especially on that car. Frankly, If that 73 2.0 is as nice as it looks, I think converting it is a mistake.

The 73 2.0 is probably the second most valuable (and rising) 914-4 after the LE. And your looks like a pristine candidate with the FI intact. That makes it a very desirable 73 2.0.

Make him an offer...

Brant says $8-9K...

OK, sure.

Hey sawtooth - I'll give you $6000 for the car, provided that the paint, trim and bumpers are as nice as pictured, the engine and trans operate properly and there is no substantial rust. PM me if you're interested.

LOL I already have a 73 2.0 with FI. Maybe I'm biased? Honestly the advice that would serve me the most would be to beg him to cut it. Thats one less 73 2.0 on the road. Maybe mine appreciates?

FWIW I don't know how the original posters car compares and I don't know how close these cars could sell to asking price, but if his car is 88k miles and 2 owner this is the company he might keep.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=647128

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=651297

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=603738

That's crazy, those are prices that I've seen sixes sell for. Truth is anybody can ask anything, but what it's worth is what it actually sells for instead of what someone HOPES it can sell for. That's the reason for looking at the e-bay "completed" listings, the only place I know to see real actual everyday selling prices. You'll see a lot of high "buy it now" and "reserve not met" prices there too, almost every one of them on cars that didn't sell.

So Sawtooth, what do you think? Have an auction, right here, see what that car is really worth? Could get interesting since you already have an opening bid of $6K and it's not even offered yet. And of course need to confirm the other side of the equation too, that you can really find a 1.7/1.8 as nice as the car you have and as cheap as these good folks say.

I agree asking price means jack crap. I kind of made the same point in my post, we don't know what these cars for sale are really worth. And, we don't know the condition of the original posters car. What I know for sure, his car won't be stock when its got a radiator and a Japanese motor. And, any chance of reaping the rewards of scoring a low mileage 2 owner car are gone forever.

I'm not against conversions. But some cars are survivors and this looks like one.

I've heard that over and over, Jake chants it incessantly, for example, but it's not really true. The only "irreversible" changes made to the car are three pieces of metal removed for the radiator. Save those pieces and they're easily replaced if anyone ever wants to convert it back, which to my knowledge has never happened. Even if they aren't saved you're talking about the equivalent of relatively minor rust repair to put it back to stock. That's just not that big a deal, and as I said earlier I personally would pay MORE for a good converted car with a modern and more powerful boxer engine, because it would be a HECK of a lot more fun to drive. And if boxes of the original parts happen to come with it, bonus.

But that's just me, and I'm definitely not a concours kind of guy. Like I said, if somebody has real strong feelings about it they only need to make him an offer he can't refuse. Probably need to do it pretty quick, though...

[I can just see him grinning like a Cheshire cat as he reads this, wondering what the next unsolicited offer is gonna be...]

But to call an end to this discussion, he said in his very first post that he's read all these debates and is past that. It's his car, he knows what he's doing, which is interesting, so now why don't we just watch his build thread?

This thread has been hijacked enough.

Click to view attachmentGood points made here. Not to keep things going , but just to throw in my point of view, I think Sawtooth should consider the point of selling the car and getting one that does not have as good mileage (cheaper), but the body is good, or frame 914 , and consider a couple of other things, as well. I have done a conversion on my car, and really enjoy it. It is definately worth NOT being a "contour" car, and all this value stuff.......well, maybe in another 30 years, because the only car collector enthusiasts that I have EVER heard about trying to find these 914s is ......us, 914 guys.( I wonder if Jay Leno has a 914 in his car collection....) But his (Sawtooth) car is immaculate stock from the start. Do you plan on modifying the body ? How about the interior ? Suspension, for sure, like said up above. If you are going to do these things, If it were me, after the experience I have had, (a good one) I would sell, the stock car, make a profit, (you already have a nice offer to put you ahead without having to wait for a buyer) and find a nice custom framed car, plan your COMPLETED project, and build off of the frame. You see, if you are going to change everything anyway, there simply is no need to keep this car, when you can make money off of it, buy one that is already stripped, and ready for modifications, for less money, or already done custom caged and all, and you will spend the same money anyways, but swapped a stock car for a custom chassis, without having to go throught the headache of having to sale all your individual pieces and parts !!! You might even want a tinted windshield. My point is , consider the overall project , not just the engine swap, to see if keeping this car is going to really benefit you in the long run, or are you really going to lose out on making some nice cash, finding another car you can take advantage of because you are doing a conversion, and be done with it. If you do a conversion, You are going to be adding torque to this car, that will twist the frame, you will need to add strength to the car, as well as time and money. Why not get a car that already is pretty much where you want to be, just needing your engine, and your custom touch, this will save lots of time and headaches ( with that being said, this is why I brought my conversion already done in another 914, and just swapped everything over to my 914, trust me , this made life so much easier !!!)....... This is just what I would do. Wish you the best.

tron, that is an amazing looking car. And from one newby to another

I appreciate all the input. If I could get $8-9K as brant suggested I would have to consider it. But I don't think its a reality. The car is very clean but to get that kind of money it really needs minor rust work and paint. If I were paying that much for a 914 I'd expect it to have new paint.

The beauty of the NA suby conversion is that I'm not cutting up the car, if I ever wanted to take it back to stock it would be easy. Without the IC there's no need to cut the trunk. And I'm committed to making an engine bay radiator work, others have done it successfully. The only body change I would like to do is steel flares at some point, but that has nothing to do with the conversion and the six guys do it all the time.

The other factor is that it's important for me to start and end with a very clean car. That way I can be finished, and enjoying the car in months, not years. Clean stock interiors are also rare and fairly expensive to build. And this one has a great interior.

What should I be able to get if I sold the complete 2.0L plug-n-play setup, (engine, djet, wiring, exhaust, etc.)? From what I've been seeing $1K wouldn't be unreasonable. That reduces the difference in using a 2.0 car vs 1.8/1.7.

Sawtooth,

Hopefully these guys didn't scare you off. :wink:

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of this build!

James

Nope, I'm still here. Kinda figured this would happen. It's a good exercise for me to go through again. But now I need to get on with progress. Next, finishing up motor assembly.

Sawtooth - FWIW , for obvious reasons I'm totally in your corner; been there done that. Bottom line, its your car, do what you want. I imagine you've read all the comments I received when I did my conversion.

So I guess this means I won't get a screamin' deal on a '73 2.0.

Sounds like you've got it figured out and that's the important thing. There's a lot to be said for a great starting point and quick turnaround to get it off jackstands. BTW, I'm currently doing a 6 cyl subie conversion on my Westy.

Good luck on the project, you'll have a bargain to be proud of when you're done.

I'll buy your running F.I. drive line for 1K
(when you get it out please email me!)

nice car
neat project
go for it.

I agree with your point! I would love to do a Subie engine on my '75 1.8L! But, I would definetly settle settle for a 2.0! I can't wait to watch your build thread!

If Brant doesn't want your engine for some reason, I will match his $1k offer for the setup! My '75 would thank me!

Sawtooth, please don't get me wrong, basically, what I was saying is that if the majority of the car is the way you want to keep it (interior, bumpers, mirrors, etc.), than go ahead and keep it. I just , in my view, saw an advantages opportunity for you to make some instant money. There are things I would do differently from the begining if I had the advise and knew about this forum 7 years ago. I will even give you another example. I saw a car on a site a couple of days ago for $4500 that was clean. Now, lets say, you sold your car to the gentleman who offered you $6000, or you sold it for $8000. You just made a very quick $1500-$2000, and have a car that is just as clean as the one you sold, just more mileage, that doesn't make a difference to you, because you are about to rip out the stock engine and other parts, and add in your Subie. I am in no way trying to talk you into selling your car, just trying to get you to see the big picture-- from my viewpoint. And you are going to change the paint ???? Look at it like this than, the profit you can make off of that car can pay or help pay for a nice paint job, or your flares !!! That nice, stock interior is not as rare as you think ! I've got to tell you Saw, you are not going to go back to stock after you put in that Subie. I can tell you that, rite now !!! To answer your question about the 2.0, I sold my brand new rebuilt (under a 1000 miles) 2 liter to a guy for $2600. I had just spent $5000 re-building it , but the loss was worth it to me after I discovered that a family station wagon kicked my butt going up hill at Angeles forest crest highway ( a wavy uphill, fun and deadly drive here in So. Cali.). No dis-respect to the 2liter or 1.7or 8 guys, but that engine isn't for me. You will find that subie motor is changing your car into a rocket, why would you take it out , and make the car back to stock ?? Saw, I , and many others, just don't see this incredible "high value" in these 914s as others claim they do ! I wish they were that rare and demanding !! I wouldn't have cut mine !!! You have to ask yourself "hmm this car is from the 70s, and yet, I can still find them in good condition for $1500-$4000 in great shape ? " Like I said, I respect everyones opinion, I just don't see this amazing value some people talk about. If you are going to transform your car , go for it all the way. If your plan is to sell it , the conversion buyer is gonna want everything done, and the "stock" guy is going to want everything original,which means any cutting you have done, even if you patched it back up to stock, you have now" dropped the dollar" to them.....Which means Plan on keeping the car, or go full throttle with the conversion, if you do it.

Sounds good, I will put you first in line.

Me 2nd!

Got it. You two guys will be the first to know.

So out of curiosity, do you have a final plan and what is your decision ?

For now I'm moving forward with tasks that have to be done no matter what car I use, to take some more time to think about it and to research what's available. I'm 95% certain I'll use my current car. But if I run across just the right deal in the near future who knows. As far as my final plan for the conversion, I'm definitely using the NA ej22/ej25 combo, small car motor mount, stock ecu and converted harness, kep adapter and clutch. And I'll be attempting a radiator mounted similar to Scott Thatcher's design.

Thanks for the support. I love how your conversion turned out, still waiting to see some driving vids on utube.

We should compare notes. I am doing the same conversion. (On my spare 914, that is...) And I am attempting to use the same idea as Scott. I have a aluminum radiator from Griffin, and with proper airflow should cool 400hp. Way overkill, but I would rather error on the side of cooler.)

I differ, in that I am using an aftermarket ECU, due mostly to the simplicity of hook-up.

I am going to be watching your thread intently.

-- brett

Do the guys wanting to buy the motor realize you are using the tranny in the car? One of them said driveline.

That appears to be a very nice 914 and for the price that you got it for, I can see how you feel about the coversion dollar wise. That FI 2ltr will almost pay for the cost of your car, which is pretty appealing. But to be honest, I think I would leave that one stock and look for another one. On the flip side, because the car is so nice inside and out, you'll end-up with a nice ride with the suby powerplant. Just don't think you wil ever get your money out of it...conversion cars, other that six conversions, should be done for your own pleasure...never from the perspective of getting your money back.
Good Luck &
v-8 progress thread

It's been a few months since my last update. The project got side tracked for a bit while I tackled some medium sized rust issues in the inner rocker on both sides. I cut out the rusted areas, killed rust and coated entire inner long. Welded in new sections. And then I decided to install the long kit from Brad Mayeur. This ties the trailing arm to the longs and adds a great amount of stiffening. I'm really happy with the results.

This weekend I pulled the 2.0L and transaxle after doing a compression test. Compression looks great (136,125,132,126). Spent the day cleaning and getting ready to sell. I was surprised at how much bigger the typeIV is then the suby motor, with all the air cooled components. Even with the added radiator, the suby setup will be smaller and lighter.

Received my KEP adapter and flywheel package, high quality stuff. Also talked the guys at Small Car Performance into selling me a set of motor mount arms. They no longer have the painted style, they have moved to a new powder coated set which is quite a bit more expensive. But after I begged for a while they sold me just the arms from the powder coated set for about the same as the old style.

Also received my cams back from Delta, got a new water pump, timing belt and cam shaft oil seals.

Next will be to clean up the engine bay, minor hell hole repair, and paint the engine bay.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

I'm following your progress. I'm still concerned about the wiring. I might just go the standalone route.

Looks good though!

From one Suby guy to another...

How goes the battle?

Sadly the battle has been stalled for a while now. I get distracted easily, man I need a local support group or something to keep me giong Very few 914s around here. But reading great threads like yours almost daily has me fired up to get going again. Just got a couple small projects to get out of the way and then I hope to be back at it.

Engine and trans are in, radiator setup is mostly finished (changed to up front), in the process of running new ss fuel lines and reconditioning fuel tank. Then installing wiring harness and hopefully firing it up soon.

Question for you.. what axle solution will you be using with your suby trans? I did pick up a suby 5spd MT and am really excited to that conversion at some point. But I'm going to treat it as a completely separate conversion later since I already have a kennedy adapter setup. Just collecting parts now.

Man thanks for the :bump Keep up the great work on yours, I'm counting on it for inspiration.

When you say motor mount arms...are you talking about the engine cradle thing they sale?

Which Kennedy set-up did you go for?

-Britain

It's this mount from Small Car Performance, but they sold me just the 2 arms that bolt up to the block, not the cross piece you see in the pic. I bolted these up to the block, and welded a piece of 2" angle at the front for the cross brace. This brace then sits on top and bolted to the stock 914 engine mount bar. I stole this idea from Amensen. But, I didn't cut lower notches like he did. I let the bar sit on top which gives enough clearance below that I don't have to modify the oil pan which is a big plus for me. Only down side to the engine sitting up that high is that there isn't enough room for the intake hose between the trunk. I'm planning on A/C at some point so I'm not flipping the intake manifold 180 like some do. I'll end up modifying the trunk slightly to make room for an intake hose.

I just have the standard kennedy adapter with the stock 200mm pressure plate size. I plan on using that for a while and then converting to a suby trans later.

Love the Subaru conversion, doing it myself, only I'm also using the subie transmission.

Keep up the good work

Cool, you going to start a build thread? What axle and shifter solution are you going with?

I'm trying to but the site keeps giving me an error when I try to upload the pics....

Axles are going to be custom since I'm going to put in a Sequential transmission, hence the shifter will be too

Sequential tranny as in the new suby sequential tranny? I read up on it and it's doesn't support much hp or torque. I really want to do a sequential tranny but haven't come up with a cost effective solution yet. I considered try to design a shifter that would work with the suby tranny but it is not to the must have stage yet. One missed downshift with a suby at high rpm will make the sequential tranny much more important though. My son hotrods a 425 hp sti and missed 5th in the 1/4 mile and putting it in third at 7500 in 4th is tough on ringlands, it probably went over 9k before he got the clutch back in. Luckily he has forged pistons in it.

The Elite transmissions gearbox holds 425 LBS/ft which is 575NM, that will do I think..

Second plus is that it is exactly the same on the outside as the oem subaru box, it fits directly to the subaru engine, no adapterplates, uses stock subaru flywheel and clutch parts etc etc.....




The Mendeola holds even more power, works with an adapter plate which is developed by OUTfront motorsports for the baya's . the plate is very short and brings the axle closer to the engine, benefit is that if you want to upgrade in the future to let's say a V8 (LS6), you just change the adapterplate.....

If you are talking about the new suby sequential tranny, the info I found was it's not available for a turbo suby motor, that alone should say what it's potential is. I asked a tranny shop about the old sequential suby trannys and the owner said they were not good trannys and very expensive to repair. They basically had metal to metal wear areas but that was the old suby trannys.

I assume you are talking about aftermarket since you mentioned the mendeola and that is not a cost effective solution for my needs.

If they ever get a long term vender on nasioc that can build the 5eat to take 450 ft lbs that would be the closest thing to a sequential I would want to spend my hard earned cash on but it will still probably be 3000.00

Yes, I'm talking about aftermarket transmissions here..

Back on the project. Since my last update I have decided to go with a different motor, 2000 ej25 n/a SOHC, usdm, 50K. Also using EMS stinger stand-alone ecu. Outfront is building the harness and setting up the base tune this week. This setup will give me much more potential for n/a power then my original 2.2/2.5 combo. Should give me solid 200chp+ for now and potentially 250chp later, with no turbo lag and no ic and ic heat to deal with.
Click to view attachment

Gave up on the engine bay cooling route, there's room but just didn't want to mess with it. I'm hoping that just opening up the oil cooler holes and using a decent double pass cooler will be enough, we'll see. Homemade gt valance for now, I'll get a real one later.
Click to view attachment

Didn't cut anything in the front except for opening up the existing oil cooler holes. Still room for a space-saver spare too.
Click to view attachment


Also decided to do a subaru trans swap sooner rather than later (thanks for the encouragment bigkat_83 and dbcooper). Got a an early 5spd and will have the new engine cradle finished by this weekend. The SmallCar engine mount arms aren't going to work for this setup. Sent the axles off to Dutchman for re-spline to match up to the suby inner cv. Having them shortened by 2.25in for a total of 18 in. I came up with this amount after measuring and re-measuring where I wanted the final length to be. Depending on ride height, foward position, and personal preference yours may be different, so don't assume this measurement is universal.
Click to view attachment

Found these for building the trans mount at Summit Machine...excellent service & very high quality stuff.
Click to view attachment

I'll be welding these to the stock suby trans support and will be using a slightly different approach to the engine cradle, more pics coming soon.
Click to view attachment

I also picked up an '85 mr2 cable shifter with stock cables from a local wrecking yard. I'll use the stock cables to get the bracket assembly built, then get everything in place and replace with correct length cables. Looks like it'll fit nicely into the stock console with slight modification to the tunnel.
Click to view attachment

Looking great...

You have about the same size inlets for the radiator as I have. I cut these small after blocking off the openings on one of my V8 cars and testing to see how small you can go. On my Subaru car with openings like yours I run right at the thermostat 190'


Bob