Yes, I did try to start the car with #1 plug wire on the front right and then the back right and then of course, followed by the firing order in a clockwise direction; the other plug wires.

Funny thing is that the rotor button appears to be pointing somewhere between the back rt and the front rt. Tonight I will go thru the static timing adjustment. It was not done after finding either "alternate #1" and it sounds like it might be a big part that I missed.

No, I have not checked compression. I have a gauge, and someone at work mentioned it, but I never got to that. Would I still be looking for total value per cylinder and variation between cylinders?

I do know that this engine is tuff to turn by hand, and I can hear the air release as I turn it.

My difference here is that I have never really heard any firing, no backfire, I just hear the starter cranking when I hit the key.

BTW: the vacuum does get in the way, by I probably have 80 to 100 degrees of rotation on the distributor.

No Compression, no fire. It will tell you a lot.

Wow this is a bitch. Besides the time I had the dizzy 180 out I had a something similar (weak spark) due to grounding issues. This is a long shot but take a ground wire directly from the battery to the case.

Also pull the plugs and let any built up gas evaporate. I will have to tell you the flame story some time.

Did you ever pull the dizzy at TDC and verify the orientation of the drive gear? I think there is a good picture in the Haynes manual. If yours is different you know where to dig next.

Even in the alternate number one location, the car should of fired or did something. How sure are you that the marks on the cam gear lined up with the crank gear? I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I just want to be extra thorough.
Compression test would be good to know, and its a quick test. Do you still have spark? Sometimes if the ignition switch is left on without the engine running can burn and degrade the points.

The car should of sputtered, stumbled or something especially running off ether.

No need to completely pull the dizzy. You can remove the retainer nut and pull the dizzy up about 1/2", which is enough to pull the drive tabs out of the grooves on the gear. Then just rotate it 180 degrees and push the dizzy back in. You will feel it seat when you have the drive tabs back in. If you put a new O-ring on the shaft, it is pretty tight and hard to pull it up.

I had a similar experience last year when I did mine. My tin had gotten bent up a little, which was preventing the distributor from seating fully when I tightened it down. Every time I tried to start it, it would jump time. Took me days to figure out what was happening. When I finally realized what was going on, I hammered the tin back down (don't remember if I pulled the dizzy to do this). After that, it seated fine, I did a static timing, and it fired right up.

Another tip for finding TDC - line up your timing marks to TDC and pull the #1 spark plug. Use a straw from Mickey Ds to feel for the top of the piston. Do NOT use a chopstick!!!

It has been about 15 months since the engine was done. At this point I can't be sure of anything. But I remember the 1 dot, 2 dot alignment on the crank and the cam gears. So there is a good chance that I did it right.

Note to self, take pictures of the key points of engine ASSMEBLY too.

Excellent. That's good enough for me

Wait a minute...I just pulled my dizzy last evening to see if the unknown seal I found was for said distributor...(it was ) ......

The slots for the dizzy drive are off center. It can only go back in completely one way...

Or did I have one beer too many??

I swear I didn't use a BFH to reinstall it

OK I have found TDC once again. THis time I felt the flywheel notch as well as all the other stuff. I have found my alternate #1 as the right rear tower. I am nowgoing to read the Pelican timing thing once more and pull out the voltmeter.

one to read with!

Pelican static timing has you put your volt meter on - coil and ground. then you turn the dizzy and watch for 0 volts then back to 12 volts and stop.

Here is the deal. They want me to approach 12v from CCW direction. I can't. I get 12 volts when the vacuum is on the fan housing. Moving CCW takes me to 0 but never back to 12.

COmments?

I have a comment, but I'm not gonna repeat myself again.

1.you folks have scared the hell out of me about pulling that thing

2. I tried last night and it is really really stuck. If I pry or pull too hard the scared factor goes up!

3. I am just going to DO IT! There is no other option.

We are there with you. I went through a lot of suggestions and trial and error recently myself. If you am confirm the gear is in the right position it takes a big part of the equation away. Heck I bet there are a number of people that would be willing to talk you through it.

If you an FaceTime or Skype on you phone the other person could be there. But you seem to have a pretty good grasp of what to do.

If you rotate the dist until the vacuum can hits the fan housing, then turn it CCW, how far can you turn it?

If you can turn it more than 90 degrees, then turn it all the way CCW and move the #1 wire CW in the cap by one hole.

Now you should be on the other side of the adjustment range.


And as for the



Pulling the dizzy should not be scary.
Once the dizzy is out, pulling the dist drive gear out of the case is the only (slightly) scary part.
You put the drive gear in right? Are you positive that you put the special washer on?
With heavy grease? Then the drive gear should come out with the washer still attached.

However, we have not determined that the gear is in the wrong place yet.
Setting the engine at TDC #1 and looking down the hole is easy.

Stu

" IF IT WASN'T IN, THE ROTOR WOULD NOT TURN, RIGHT?"

I was just asking if you personally put the gear in to see if you remember the washer.
And you cannot get the dizzy misaligned with the gear.
The tabs on the bottom of the dizzy are offset so it only engages with the gear in one orientation.

Stu

Oh, I can't be positive about anything now. But I know I that I knew about it...So I can only hope that I included it. That being said, I did install the gear, and I am pretty sure that I included the washer. And I knew about the offset slot. I found it again last night in one of the manuals I have.

Ok I have moved the alternate #1 from BACK RIGHT to FRONT RIGHT. And I tried the static timing again....at #1 TDC of course. Same problem. I get 12 volts at the fan housing. so there is no way to approach 12v in CCW rotation. Fan to cold start is CCW and the meter is reading 12 'til about 1/2 way, then it drops.....but not to zero. it drops to about 0.36 then to about 0.28 and then I hit the Cold start valve.

from the Cold start valve I am low and move CW to 12 at about 1/2 way.

is the fact that I don't hit zero volts relevant?

I have removed the distributor. I look down the hole and I see the drive gear slot pointing toward my alternate #1. Is the goal now to get the slot angled correctly? I assume I could lift it SLIGHTLY and rotate?

If you have the haynes manual, a picture of the distributor drive positioned at TDC is on page 65, figure 3.6.

And do you have Jake's engine assembly video?

The procedure for doing the static timing can be done visually by looking down into the distributor with the cap & rotor out.
You should be seeing the points opening & closing as you rotate the distributor body.

Stu

Yes I have both and the manual was opened to that page. I do have the video. I will give it a look again.

I feel like the complete removal of the drive gear is not required. I just need to lift if slightly and drop it back when I hit the 12 degrees pictured, agreed?

I find it hard to believe after 5 pages of screwing around with the distributor and where is my TDC? etc and still no spark or firing? Maybe go back to basics.. Do you have a spark? Place a plug with #1 wire laying on the top of the engine and crank. Does it spark. You need spark, fuel and compression. Check compression (now I am repeating myself). This will tell you a lot! do you have 5 PSI? 50 PSI 100 or more? This will clear valve and cam / crank timing.

I just compared the picture in the haynes manual to Jakes video, and the slots do not appear to be lined up the same.

The haynes manual shows the slot 12 deg. from perpendicular to the fan housing.
In Jakes video he is inserting the slot almost vertical which would line it up with the dist hold-down bolt in the case.

I tried to use Jake's method when I assembled it and must have been off some.
My rotor points almost directly at the CYL#1 spark plug when at TDC.

Stu

Yes looking at the video again, that is how I installed it. And that is the orientation as I pulled the dizzy. You are correct, it does not match the manuals. Next challange is to get the "pinion" rotated to 12 degrees and the small segment towards the outside of the vehicle, like the haynes and clymer manual.

At least you FI system is working, that's half the battle!

I guess I should take that back.... I am positive about the FI system. Thank you for that! But I think I am in for a battle to get this drive gear (pinion) out, or moved. It lifts up about 1/2 way then hits a snag and my grabber tool slips.

I think I am quitting for now. I have to be away for about 10 days. This is going to drive me crazy the whole time.

Thanks again. I'll restart.... (pun not intended) this mess after.

Sorry dude, but EVERYTHING, I mean everything else is good. Or was 2 days ago. I tried to check compression, but my tool is a screw in type and I could not get it tight enough to guarantee the readings.

Do folks use the PUSH IN type for these VW engines with all the cooling tin? Maybe I can rent-a-tool one and give it a shot.

Thanks,

Clark

It won't just pop out. You'll need to spin and pull at the same time. You may lose tdc when rotating the engine, but I'm sure your getting good at finding tdc by now.

THANKS TO EVERYONE.... I will not be bothering you about this for about a week, so please take care of everyone else, and save up for more of my problems at the end of July.

Thanks again,

Clark

I have a suggestion for you to try....

Get a compression gauge with a two piece hose. Take the schraeder (tire) valve out of the hose that screws into the spark plug hole, and then install it in the number 1 cylinder spark plug hole. Bump the engine over with a remote starter button while holding your thumb over the hole in the end of the compression tester hose. You will feel compression on your thumb when you are on the way to top dead center. Then move the engine in the normal direction of rotation until the timing mark on the fan (or flywheel) is centered.

Remove the distributor. Remove the distributor drive gear. Use a magnet to retrieve the special washer from the bottom of the hole. Use some wheel bearing grease to hold the washer on the bottom of the gear. Reinstall the drive gear so that the narrow side is on the passenger side of the car, and the slot points 12 degrees off center line, going from left front to right rear of the car.

Reinstall the distributor. Move the vacuum can until it is centered on the wire bail that holds the oil filler on the engine. Put the distributor cap on. Then install the plug wires. Connect the right rear distributor tower to the right rear plug. Connect the right front tower to the right front plug. Connect the left front tower to the left REAR plug, and connect the left rear tower to the left FRONT plug.

If you did that exactly as I have outlined, you should be able to start the car and be somewhere between 6 and 9 degrees timing. Adjust with a light once it is running.

And fyi.... you really need to install the distributor correctly. When VW designed the distributor, they retarded the timing on the #3 cylinder by about 2 degrees by deliberately mis-locating the point cam. This was to make the #3 cylinder run cooler. Installing the wires on the wrong towers will result in retarded timing on the wrong cylinder, and possible detonation on #3 due to it running hot.

Thanks Clay. I just returned home from 10 days in costa rica. and i did use magnet. I will try your suggestion this evening... I hope. Everything is out safely!

Click to view attachment

I did figure out part of this puzzle.

If you use Jake's method from the video, the drive gear angle could be different based on what distributor you use the set the angle.

Here is a pic of two distributors with the rotor point up.

Those dist drive cams are different by a lot.


Stu

Well bad news for me on this one. I was able to get what I thought was a good seal on all 4 plug holes with my compression tester and I got

40 PSI on each cylinder. WTF?

I had several people recommend Racer Chris @ Tangerine racing as a guy that might be able to shine some light on this. He has been helping try to verify that I somehow screwed up the cam gear indexing before I pull it and crack it open. I am not sure it can be verified other than the fact that every other system is working.

The pinion was out of whack, it has been removed and replaced at 12 degrees per all the manuals. then the static timing was re-set. Since then I have replace the condenser, points and tried a Bosch coil too. New NGK plugs as well. But that did not help.

Anyone else care to chime in? I'll try anything!

Guess I'll break out the engine stand again.

One thing at a time.
Patience grashopper.
Check your inbox.

You have fuel, spark but no compression. I'm thinking its either miss adjusted valves, incorrect indexed cam or just wrong cam altogether.

I think I've ruled out the cam index and am currently having Clark focus on the valve adjustment.

sounds good, I am heading to Yahoo and see what good news there!

For those of you following along. I had lots of kid stuff to do today, but I did find time to set all eight valves at 0 lash. Even checked (best I could) to see if the pushrods might not be seated properly.
Double checked my work and turned the key. I am sorry to say that the engine did not start.

Clark

I wish you lived closer

Sorry Clark.
After watching your short video I was nearly convinced it was a valve adjustment problem and not cam index.
I don't kow what else could cause your symptoms so I guess its time to pull the engine.

I know one knowledgeable member in Nashville who you might ask to pay you a visit before embarking on a major teardown.
William Grier is in Hermitage. He's been working on 914s for a long time.
His screenname is WFG.

Yes, William and I have talked numerous times and he has mentioned coming to visit. His workplace is actually very close. He was busy last week, I will call him today, maybe he can give it a look.

I did recheck one cylinder's compression last night, it actually dropped a little. It was under 40, maybe 35-ish. Would it be worth trying to loosen the valves to OEM pushrod specs and give it a shot....0.006 -ish?

What is the theory behind the 0 lash on Chromoly pushrods?

Unless you got them too tight, I wouldn't think loosening the valve adjustment will be helpful at this stage.
Stock aluminum pushrods grow at a rate similar to the engine expansion.
CrMo pushrods grow much more slowly so starting with them at zero will put them at the right lash when the engine is hot.

I watched a racer experiment with carbon fiber pushrods in the past.
He had to set them up with an interference fit cold so they would be right at temperature.
The engine was very difficult to start and run cold.

I cannot visually remember well enough.... is it possible to see the cam index marks through the oil pump hole?

The chromoly pushrods expand at a different rate than the stock pushrods.
Supposedly once everything is at operational temp, there will be just the right amount of lash if they are at zero when cold.

Stu

You should hurry and tear down this engine before those fuel injectors seize again!

Last time, 15 months went by before I used the injectors. I will shoot for less than 15 days this time. Maybe I will soak them while they wait....

Clark

Sorry it is going this way. I am real interested to find out the solution. Again let me know if you want to do a tag team tear down. I can make the drive up. It would not be a completely generous gester as I would plan on picking your brain on the A-arm rebuild process that you completed.

Let me know.

Sorry I'm late to the party! With #1 and #3 pistons at TDC, one of those 2 cylinders will be on TDC compression stroke. A plastic soda straw makes a great tool for determining TDC, a chop stick doesn't. The other will not. The one on compression stroke will have clearance on both valves, the other will not. Once you've found the correct cylinder (the one with valve clearance), look at the rotor position. That would be the cylinder that should be sparking. If neither cylinder has valve clearance, you have a fundamental problem, assuming the valves have been adjusted correctly. (Might want to use the method outlined in my post in the classic threads to be sure you have proper clearance.) This method is cam lobe based and doesn't care which cylinder you're "on". The "fundamental" problem of which I speak would be camshaft timing, and that's one requiring disassembly for correction.

The Cap'n

Thanks Cap'n, can you clarify for me?:

1. When you say "valves will have clearance" in this setting, what does that mean?
2. I am fishing around the plug hole with the straw, looking for what? Top of the piston, slightly opened valves???

I'll look for your classic post, but I bet Racer Chris directed me... He had me basically open a valve on 1-2 side, set the corresponding valve on 3-4 side and visa versa?