I have an audi a8 with a 4.2 liter OVERHEAD camshaft engine.
Its really quick, really smooth and really common in germany.

So, its the same motor at the porsche cayenne and the porsche panamera.

Seems like a simple enough swap to do except the fuel injection.

Aside from the awesome car that Marty is creating, has anyone found anyone that has used this 4.2 liter motor in anything else?
Just like to see how they get around several transplant issues, but mainly ignition and fuel injection...which would both need to be custom unless you take everything from the donor car, like the gauges, ignition switch, all of that stuff.

rich

I've seen 3 Boxsters using that engine . Bolts right up to the boxster transaxle. 2 of them done here in Atlanta both using megasquirt ecus

i know it works with the boxster transaxle, and that is also key.
You dont know if there are any build threads or contact for the car owners???

rich

The 914 is a great car whether it has a subie, LS, Audi type 4 or even an S2000 or K series engine. It really depends on the person who is driving it and what combination they prefer. I owned a a 914 with a small block 350 then bought a world small block 427 which was a piece of sh..., My only complaint was figuring out the correct gearbox to use. I had a Pantera ZF which could handle the power but the shift pattern was annoying. The Mendiola is a good choice but way to expensive. The 930 is okay but you have to have someone who can flip the ring and pinion and re-weld the case. I am all for people trying different engine combinations and sharing their experience so that all of us can learn what we think is the ultimate 914. In my opinion the ultimate 914 is the one that is running and you enjoy driving it. HC

Well Said

What is your expected budget and time frame?

Looking back at some of your other posts it looks like you've already pulled the stock motor.... you might be lucky if you can get 1/4 of the $ you need for a decent Big /4 or V8 conversion with the sale of your stock 1.7.

http://m.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-e...ml#.VKNtPJGIaSw


Of all the crate motor s this one looked the best to me ,but 9 k is a bit steep

It greatly depends upon your goals and objectives with the car. There really isn't a wrong answer to your question. I, for one, wouldn't consider opinions of those who haven't owned (read extensive seat time) cars with both power-plants (you're asking about). This , however, cuts the number of experienced posters seriously down.

I've owned both types of motors. The T4 car was a FAT Performance 2.4 liter stroker with 160 hp ($11G's - engine only)! Very nice for street but under powered and the downside of all air-cooled motors - stench. The conversion was an LS2. FI is a huge plus and can be driven more smoothly than the T4 around town. In fact, it always reminded me of a factory car.

You really need to find some way to drive both before making a decision. I will personally never go back to an air-cooled engine but can talk myself temporarily into why others might (it really is a hard sell though). Again, drive both on nicely executed cars and I promise you the decision will be very easy.

Tony

Hmmm ...good debate. Im one of those "few" that has driven a variety of configurations.
Stock (all disp.'s), /6 (carbed /FI), Subi (NA & turbo), Buick V6 & V8, SBC...
Never an auto though.
For what its worth...Im going big 4.
2366

What is the driving factor(s) behind that decision?

Cost, time to get it back on the road or just 'cause you like the big /4 so much?

my wife would be ok with a big 6 but unfortunately I have a smokin hot Medium 8

Just don't ask her to build your next house- it'll only be 3/4 size!!

gm performance parts say 575 lbs for turnkey 350 sbc with iron heds 464 for turn key 03 ls1 corvette engine

More taste (power) - less filling (weight)! ;-)

The "914 configuration" weight comparisons: HP rating are "stock" motors.

1) Complete LS3 motor, stock (heavy) cast exhaust manifolds and alternator = 421 lbs/430hp

2) For Comparison: 2.7/6 = 440 lbs/150hp

3) Do you feel like installing an anchor in your 914? 964 3.6 = 608 lbs/250hp

4) Type 4 = 311 lbs/95hp

Is there really any question which choice offers the most benefit?

Are you sure that isn't the shipping weight with crate/pallet? I'm recalling 415lbs. for the LSx....But I'll stand corrected.

Andys

turn key = all accessory drives, alt, p/s, a/c, cats, and hoses.

Just curious is anyone doing a straight or v 6

I'm thinking it would be lighter then most and less power
Then l s of course

V8 is cheap power but not as refined as Porsche type4 or wickedsix!
You loose the quality of the car with anything heavier than a flat 6, and even that is almost too heavy drive a 914 with a hot type4 in the curvy mountains and image now you would drag a peace of heavy iron v8 with you it looses its feel for the car and smart curve handling!

Just curious... where you are getting these figures from? The 2.7 is magnesium. I read somewhere that the 3.0 is 440 lbs and its aluminum.

Glad to help Steve...a book called "Porsche 911 engines" by Aichle. Here is an old
link (10 years) sharing some of the same information. These "questions" have all been asked before...even here on the World! Haha!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/i...php?t10158.html

I couldn't agree less - I had a hopped up 2.0 and used to drive from Boulder Colorado to Estes Park on a regular basis and later did the same drive in the SBC car I built. You might sell that argument on a down hill drive. Going up the canyons is a whole-nother story!

Find some nice twistys up and down some nice hills. Drive both and decide for yourself.

My dad really liked my V8 but decided to do an odd fire Buick V6. It was almost as much effort as the V8- I never liked the engine. A friend that inspired me had a 455 buick v8 in his car- too much torque for the HP in my opinion.

My engine isn't a stock 3.0 /6, it should push at least 250hp

BTW is that LS3 engine counting the rad, fan, water, hose, etc?
Even if the LS3 is the same weight as a /6, the center of gravity is much higher, that will effect the car dynamics.
On the 3.6 is that higher number counting things like the AC pump, power steering pump? I can't see the engine alone weighing much more than the 3.2.

Mark - I'm very happy for you. Really though - this thread is supposed to be about the preference (or driving characteristics) between a /4 and /8. Correct???

PS: My "hobby life" would be far simpler if I could be "satisfied" with 250 hp (in a 914). With that said, my race car only has 180 hp (and faster than ANY 914 ever built, period)!

Tony



My engine isn't a stock 3.0 /6, it should push at least 250hp

BTW is that LS3 engine counting the rad, fan, water, hose, etc?
Even if the LS3 is the same weight as a /6, the center of gravity is much higher, that will effect the car dynamics.
On the 3.6 is that higher number counting things like the AC pump, power steering pump? I can't see the engine alone weighing much more than the 3.2.
[/quote]

I didn't post that list so why do you have to come off as an ass?

That list is not comparing apples to apples and my point is I hate skewed info.
If you are not counting the weight of the rad, water, hose,etc. than that info is nothing more than a lie.

BTW the OP doesn't know what he wants. Right now in PM's to me he's (OP) is thinking of doing a V6 I'm telling him if he goes this route a V8 is a better choice.

My complete SBC conversion with AC added 250lbs. Once a 1.8--the sbc tripled the hp No comparison in the improvement for driving experience

Now, I don't autocross, but love to drive the car from from central ca to the coast. Having the power to zip pass people when needed going up the mountains is invaluable on one lane roads.

Even though I've loved all the air cooled 914s that I've had, it was always a bit frustrating when I needed a part when something unforeseen when wrong--grounding the car since everything had to be ordered where I live.

With a common more modern power plant, parts are readily available, in stock, and relatively cheap.

I am not advocating an engine change if your 914 is being kept original--but if you really love driving and experiencing what a 914 can do with reliable power that starts every time--go for a powerplant that meets your needs and pocketbook.

I agree the weight difference has to include the rad, water & hose or the argument becomes invalid. Yes im up in the air right now and its a bad time of the year to try to drive/ride in different cars. Im going to wait till spring to try and make a drivetrain decision.

Don't be so thin-skinned my Northern enthusiast...I am an "ass" sometimes but my friends still love (at least like) me.

I really do covet weight loss on performance cars but unless the car is driven past "9/10ths" the weight difference we're all discussing simply does not matter. Most "track rats" don't even approach this aggressive threshold. A 914 would equate to an "oil tanker" compared to what I drive in aggression. Inherently, 914's are NOT race cars - they're 40+ year old economy cars for crying out loud. However, based upon the OP's question, the weight difference (including everything) on ANY of these conversions is purely negligible - even the fat-pig-ed 3.6 liter!

Clearly, the OP is not a racer with "ultimate performance" as a goal - if he were, the questions asked would be MUCH different and far more detailed. He also wouldn't want to know the difference in "driveability" - he sounds like a "show/shine" gentleman who might go "to the hills or a causal A/X" occasionally. For the record - there is nothing wrong with this either! IF this is his purpose, however, either option (any option) will please him. Put a damn rotary in there - he'll be o.k! O.k.?

Convincing yourself that a /4 or /6 is the best way to go is fine...the argument simply falls short for "most" drivers. Not all owners are skilled enough to drive a powerful car - I usually point them in the direction of a (are you ready...drum roll please) /6!. I'll say it again, I'm very happy you're happy.


Tony

Agreed. It all costs money.

I went from a worn-out L-Jet 1.8 to a carbed 2.4 type 4. Maybe I would have been happy with a refreshed stock engine.

'Smokin hot Type 4' engines are not a bargain, but they are more plug-and-play than any water cooled / non-Porsche engine conversion.

I would consider the back half of the equation -- the transmission. The 901 is adequate, but the ratios suck, and it is clunky.

If I wasn't so biased against the Subaru (can't stomach Japanese engine in German car) I would go the Suby route. A modern engine with EFI, lots of aftermarket and interwebz support and comes with a modern transmission to match.

Another option is the close cousin -- Audi 1.8/2.0 T and transmission.

I have had several conversions, each one a little different.

'71 narrow body, Ford 5.0L EFI: this car had stock brakes and suspension except for 180# springs in the rear. Super fast and easy to control drift around any corner. When the tires were gripping, the car handled great.

73 wide body with several engines:

283ci V8, 250hp, cast iron everything. Super heavy with good power. Handling was very predictable. the rear over steer would plant the car in the same place every time. Awesome setup.

1.3L turbo rotary, 500hp at the peak. super light and too much HP and not enough torque for my driving likes. The over steer (above) was gone and the car was so light over the rear tires it was scary.

1.8L turbo Audi, 325hp. Lighter than the V8, heavier than the rotary. great power and torque. This seems like the best of the combos. Less over steer yet still predictable. I find some under steer in the front pushing tight turns at high speed. I think it either needs more weight over the front wheels or I need to pull the rear sway bar.

Each of these 3 combos use the same radiator and hoses to the front. The radiator and coolant add less than 50lbs to the car. With the added engine weight, the front mounted radiator helps to balance the chassis.

I have driven a stock 2.0L T4 914 as well. I can say that once you drive a high HP 914, it's impossible to go back to stock. The chassis is capable of holding much more power than it came with. My Audi conversion is my favorite by far. It runs like a new car around town and drives like a race car when I get on it.

The pleasure or pain of driving a 914 conversion will mainly come down to the chassis setup. Plan on springs, shocks and brakes to match whatever engine combo you decide.

That's a pretty good perspective. You can have any opinion you want, but unless you've actually driven all those different combinations to compare then your opinion isn't based on facts. Just because you "believe" something doesn't make it true.

To address the "but it's not a 914 anymore" thinking, sure, that's right. But is that a bad thing? That AC Ace/AC Cobra analogy, is the Cobra an Ace that's been ruined? It's heavier than the Ace, carries the weight higher, has a friggin' American motor so it's a POS hot rod, but looking at them and driving them, car for car, is the Cobra a bad car? Different, for sure, but less anything than the Ace? Is it less "sporty", less "pure", less "balanced", less "English"? Those things might all be true for some hard-core Ace owner, but not for any car enthusiast with an open-mind. For any reasonable person the Cobra is a great and iconic car, plus it's a hell of a lot faster and a lot more fun to drive. Trade your Cobra for my Ace? Seriously? That makes sense only if you've never driven a Cobra.

So my suggestion is, if you haven't driven/ridden in a V8 914 go find a way to do it, then tell me it didn't put a smile on your face. No one's saying you have to do it to your car, just saying that it makes for a very nice (if different) car on its own merits, and it's a valid way to have some fun.

OK, a LOT of fun.

I have owned 9 or 10 type 4 powered 914s, one conversion with a 2.5 built six (made a whopping 200 hp) at a cost of somewhere north of 10k. I presently have 2
v8 cars one 327 and one with a built LS6. Four years ago I again tried a low mileage 1974 2.0 and drove it less than a hundred miles before reselling it. After driving one with over 300 hp, I could not go back. Out of all of them the six made the most beautiful noises, but was rather down on power.

Also when comparing weights, lets not forget about the sixes oil tank and if you have a big one , its cooler.

I get what you're saying. You keep using that analogy, but I don't think it's valid in terms of how these cars are perceived. The Cobra is essentially a factory built car; water cooled 914's are not.
Had Chevy (or another large name) been importing 914 bodies and putting V8's in them in the factory I think you'd see a different attitude towards the conversion from the air-cooled purists.
And I also think, had Cobras been built by private enthusiasts, you would see a different attitude towards them as well. If it wasn't Carol Shelby who had done the engine/trans conversions, in a legitimate partnership with Ford, they would just be a novelty car and certainly not worth the $1,000,000+ that they go for now.

I'm not making an argument either way...just saying I think there's a reason why there's a different attitude towards the Cobra "conversion" than towards a 914 conversion; and that reason is the legitimacy of the cars being built by a famous racing driver who was backed by an automobile manufacturer.

Look...if you love water-cooled cars, that's great. If you love air-cooled cars, that's great. Whatever puts a smile on your face, man!

Yes for a /6 you have to add the weight of the tank and oil, the cooler is a bit more subjective as you don't "have" to add it for a functional car.
In the south and traffic or track you may for sure need it, but in the north, no track and not much traffic you may be able to do without one.

Again, as I stated in a previous post, weight is an absolute non-factor for any car NOT being driven at 9/10ths on a race track. Now, if putting an LS into a 914 increased its weight to 4,000 lbs I would agree...but it doesn't. It means nothing. It is also important to note that my perspective nearly always comes from a "drivers perspective"...not a poser's.

By NO means am I comparing the actual cars "performance" but with ALL of this concern over "weight" I found this to be very interesting comparative data (simply from a tonnage perspective). What was someone saying about "weight" being a problem?

1) MY 914 LS3 / 2083 lbs / 485 hp / 460 tq (mid-engine, water-cooled & 6-Speed)
4.3 lbs/hp & 4.56 lbs/torque

2) '04 Carrera GT / 3043 lbs / 605 hp / 435 tq. (Porsche finally got-it-right: mid-engine, water-cooled & 6-Speed)
5.02 lbs/hp & 13.89 lbs/torque (PLUS an Extra 960 lbs compared to the teener)

3) 914 2.0 (hot) / 2116 / 150 hp / 135 tq. (mid-engine, air-cooled & 5-Speed 901)
14.01 lbs/hp & 15.67 lbs/torque

I cut my teeth in P-cars and am a National PCA Instructor. It might surprise some folks "here" but I really do enjoy Porsche's - especially teaching P-owners how to drive
their cars. However, I also have "no tolerance for in-tolerance" when it comes to purists attitudes towards better mouse-traps. I'm not telling anyone an air-cooled engine
isn't a good idea for a teener...(but) please don't automatically spew the concept that a v8 is bad (either).

Exactly. The question is how the car performs, bottom line, nothing else.

No, perception has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm talking about what you get, the car, not about what people who don't know what they're talking about think of the car. If what other people think is a factor in your choice of cars then you should know there are a lot of 911 guys who have really low opinions of 914's, no matter what their configuration. You have a 914 so you know better than those 911 snobs, and that's exactly the same thing I'm saying about 914's that have been modernized with a lot more power. Judge the car for what is and what it can do, not for your own (possibly incorrect) image of what it "should be". That's the point in the Cobra/AC Ace analogy, the performance of the car that resulted, not what it "should" or shouldn't be. Judge the car for itself, for its own merits, not for some uninformed bystander's perceptions.

I'm in total agreement, which is why I can't understand people who get all butthurt about other people's watercooled cars.

Look, the original question was the better drivability between a fire cracker four cylinder and an aluminum V8. There's no one who's had a hot four who will tell you it has wonderful drivability... is there? Not for long, anyway, and the people who've had V8 cars will tell you they're perfectly drivable, won't they? So the original question is answered... isn't it? But as a special bonus the OP got a lot of answers to another question he didn't ask, about general acceptance of watercooled conversions in the 914 community. Another factor that needs to be considered in his deliberations.

I couldn't agree more. I had a big 4, didn't like the driveability so I switched to a six. I am also a fan of v8 914's though I have never ridden in one. From a gearing standpoint what is the red line of a stock aluminum ls1? I noticed the peak hp is around 5800 rpms.
Curious about the other politics. Does PCA allow non Porsche power plants at an Autocross?
I wish I could afford two 914's. One with a v8.

[/quote]

I get what you're saying. You keep using that analogy, but I don't think it's valid in terms of how these cars are perceived. The Cobra is essentially a factory built car; water cooled 914's are not.
Had Chevy (or another large name) been importing 914 bodies and putting V8's in them in the factory I think you'd see a different attitude towards the convers
ion from the air-cooled purists.
And I also think, had Cobras been built by private enthusiasts, you would see a different attitude towards them as well. If it wasn't Carol Shelby who had done the engine/trans conversions, in a legitimate partnership with Ford, they would just be a novelty car and certainly not worth the $1,000,000+ that they go for now.

I'm not making an argument either way...just saying I think there's a reason why there's a different attitude towards the Cobra "conversion" than towards a 914 conversion; and that reason is the legitimacy of the cars being built by a famous racing driver who was backed by an automobile manufacturer.



There is a difference between a factory effort using a little known car at the time (the Ace) and introducing a whole new concept (the Cobra) and something that's been around 40+ years being "engineered" by someone in their garage because they aren't happy with the car they own.

I'm always in favor of more power, but for vintage cars, it's within the original vision the manufacturer had for the car which in this case is a 4 or 6. I guess if I wanted something light with a high horsepower V8, I would go buy a Cobra or Sunbeam Tiger.

I wonder what percentage of similar vintage cars such as BMW 2002's or Alfa GTA's have had this done to them?

It may vary by region, but in the Rocky mountain region I have run both DE's and AX in my porcharu, hell I've even done PCA AX in my S2000.

The old-er stock (pre-2004) LS1's redline at 6k; my LS3 redlines at 6500. However, I never have to get close to the limit (shift light is set at 6100) due to the mountain of torque available.

Regarding non-Porsche drivetrains being allowed to run PCA A/X events...generally yes. Now, PCA "club racing" is an entirely different animal. Only Porsche drive-lines/components allowed.

I was raised a Hot Rodder. I don't see any problem with modifying a 914 or any car. I don't see a problem keeping it stock either.

Modifying any car comes with more challenges than simply installing an engine. Usually the chassis, brakes and suspension will also need to be upgraded to match the engine choice. I have a roll cage, 930 turbo brakes, stiffening kit, front/rear sway bars, etc...

I've gone through several transmission and axle combos. I now run CV's that are $400 each just to keep them from breaking. I swapped in all the electronics from the donor car. I've swapped in multiple engines in the quest to find the one I like. I have spent more money than I will total up. I now throw away receipts so I don't accidentally add them up.

Everybody will have an opinion of how they want their 914 to be. All of them will be correct in their own mind. If you are not a fabricator, buy a finished car. I have thousands of hours building and rebuilding my 914 on this vision quest. I am now to the point of fine tuning the rest of the car. I have new plans for radiators and cooling using Boxster parts.

Some will like my car and some will not. Even if you don't like it, I bet I can put a smile on your face by taking you for a ride...

Did someone say Porsche drive-line/ components allowed? Appearing at Porsche Club events very soon...
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Mike.... glad you wrote.... I am about to start a V8 build and to be honest, I have been hesitating to ACTUALLY start. The whole "keep it air cooled and lite, ect....".... but I will have fun trying this, and that keeps me motivated in work and life.

And whatever is done can be un-done if I do not LOVE it, right? My car was a forgotten seaside car when I saved it... it was never destined for originality anyway....

Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I think this is related to the original post (kind of).

Cheers!

Awesome! I'd very much like to see the build details...another thread maybe if it doesn't exist. Which model are you building around this beautiful motor? Another thread perhaps (if needed).


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I think they are two totally different animals.(LS1/big 4 even a 6)

[quote name='jgara962' date='Jan 3 2015, 12:39 PM' post='2129596']
[/quote] I wonder what percentage of similar vintage cars such as BMW 2002's or Alfa GTA's have had this done to them? [/quote]

You opened this "can of worms"...my 1973 BMW 2002 w/ a 400 hp BMW S62 (M5) v8! The reason you don't see this "conversion" because of the cost. The engine, harness and Motec management (which is required) is over $25k - that's JUST the engine!

the Ls engine is "the engine" to transplant into damn near everything.

bmw 3, 5, 7 series.

infiniti g cars

Nissan 240 and 300

old Mercedes

Volvos

jags

Miata

the ecu and harness "kits" make this the easiest swap, 3 wires hook up.

if it will fit the engine bay this works very well, light small and simple with parts availability every where and cheap.

Sorry for the hijack, but sweet lord, that thing is a beast! I can only imagine what a blast it will be to drive. I have a 72 tii with a stock m10, nowhere near as fast as my 914 but a great little car in its own right. What color are you painting it?