Side shot of engine with intake on backwards (just looking for fit).

Aft shot of engine with intake on backards.

Front view of engine with alternator resting approx where it will be, and intake manifold backwards.

Close up of Kennedy Adaptor plate. At the top you can see the ports that supply water to the heater element in a subaru. I will probably just put a hose from one to the other. This water circuit also goes through the intake manifold and throttle body - presumably to warm the charge in the cold.

This is the oil filler neck and intake runners (1 & 2 cylinders). To the right, there is some interference between some fuel rail stuffage and the turbo. The bracket behind the filler neck has to be modified to clear the neck, and this holds up the water expansion tank.

The engine and tranny with no intake manifold.

Closeup of right side stage 2 turbo. The large air-bellows here are the sensor or control (not sure which) that allows exhaust to flow in to this turbo. Next to it is the wastegate controller for this turbo.

I am worried about this lot interfering with the body, since this is right next to the transmission/engine border.

MMMMMMMMM. Intake valves.

The line shown here is the oil supply to the Stage 1 turbo.

You can see my modified bracket at the bottom of the picture.

And here is a 4 legged alien.

Another fun thing about this engine. There are brown and black FI and spark ports on the harness - the brown ones go forward, just like the type IV.

Fiid, whats the HP and torque figures of this engine? Also, when is the estimated time of installation for this?

~ 275 HP
~ 275 foot pounds

I will get it installed as soon as I can. I need to:-

1. Resolve the starter situation
2. Get some FI and spark working
3. Get some boost/staging control working
4. Fit the radiator and plumbing to the car. Locate and install fans, and fan controls.
5. Get a motor mount of some description.
6. Get it in.

I will probably have to tackle a tranmission rebuild as well.

Oh yeah - I may be able to get more hp and torque since I don't have to deal with emmissions compliance.

BTW. The engine weights roughly the same as a stock type 4 - much less than a 6 cyl.

Fiid.

So whats the hp your thinking? stock considering a little engine wear?

I really think that this is the engine conversion I want to do. Not trying to be a copycat
But I want something reliable (the T4 is not doing that for me), something light, and something with some bragging rights (T4 aint doing that for me, but 280hp? oh heck ya...)

Hey, doesnt the intercooler go on top of the engine? and then you need a radiator on top of that? ah phoey.. Hmm lets see.. Front trunk, radiator, spare tire, 2 bass tubes, amp.. no room for anything else

Do you have conversion cost?

Thanks

Andrew

Is it me, or can anyone else see the last batch of pics Fiid attached? I have space where pics would go but screen is blank below text.

John

It ought to be a reliable engine, and ought to put out the stock HP. The engine comes out of a Legacy Wagon, so this will be light duty for it.

The intercooler will sit above where the cooling fan is on a stock 914. It does require a radiator to be put in the front.

I don't have a cost estimate yet. I'm in denial about how much the car costs me, so I'm reluctant to work this out at this stage - I'm just working through it as I can afford bits. I'll add it up at the end - in ain't cheap though. Having said that - the actual engine conversion has not cost me all that much - most of my money to date has gone on suspension upgrades.

23mm Front Torsion Bars
Koni Sports all around
Weltmeister front Sway Bar
New 19mm Master Cylinder
Adjustable rear perches and 175 pound springs
Mueller's roller bearings all around.

I also need to go 5 lug and get some decent brakes on the thing - my brakes just don't bite. They will lock up the wheels, but they don't feel like modern brakes do. I plan to get either M or S calipers up front. Not sure about the rear - might stay stock or try and get something vented.

Must be you. I can see 'em. They're .jpgs

Cool already did all that

I agree with you on the brakes, the stock system just doesnt deliver.. My brakes seem to be squishy.. I think I need to rebleed them, and get new pads (atleast rear) but they do lock up the tires. I have 911 A calipers, with new pads, and stock rear calipers with vented rotors all the way around, once I get good pads on all corners they should be balanced, and I have the "T" thingy instead of a proportioning valve.

Ya, suspension is expensive.. Hmm dady's saying v6 twin turbo is bad for insurance... ah phoey... But its stock!

Andrew

fiid,

will you marry me?






i want your car.

Clearly you haven't seen it :-)

Errr - Insurance? My insurance company doesn't want to know what engine is in the car ??????????? I asked if they wanted to know, and they said they didn't.

Well your not 17

Andrew

Fiid, how much boost are you looking for? Maybe you should try a 930 tach..??

also, rumor has it there is a vented rotor coming out that will allow us to use our 4 lug wheels with 911 brakes

Ha ha Fiid.. learn to WAX the paint on the doors BEFORE you apply the NUMBERS..LOL LOL ROOKIE !!!!


B

Cool. Coil on plug. Cool.. it looks identical to a Boxster engine minus two cylinders.


B

Brad. I like you and all, but

I never said I wasn't a rookie.


Tell it to the PCA. Seriously though, thats cool. I've never seen a boxster engine out of it's vehicle - Are they also quad overhead cam?

I believe the motor runs with around 17 lbs of boost. It redlines at 7.

At the risk of saying "Me Too, too!"

This is an engine swap I'd can see in my future too. But I'd probably do without the turbos. I have the engine already - its in my daily driver 99 legacy GT ... for now. The Sub 2.5 flat four is a nice engine, and seems like a natural choice to make a reliable daily driver teener with lots of HEAT (needed 'round heah to extend the roof-off driving season well into the early spring and late fall).

I know Kennedy makes the adaptor plate. Is there a ready-made motor mount bar available, or is custom fabrication the only way to do it right now?

Joe

Cool Project Fiid!

I was contemplating something like this as an upgrade from the TIV in my 550 spyder as well, though I'd use a cheaper JDM motor. If you find yourself out in your garage with a measuring tape in hand, could you measure from the trans bell housing to the farthest forward portion of the engine, as well as the centerline of the crank to the top of the four legged alien?

With a 550, there is limited space for this type of thing, but it has been done.

Thanks,
DMA

Fiid,
Your project is so cool.I surtainly share your frustrations.We take the problems one at a time,and solve them one at a time.
I appreciate the info from Brad on the starter source.Thats what makes this board great.
I just hope that same starter will work w/my 915 box on my project.
Keep us posted,great pics.
Ron

Any of the the EJ20, 22 or 25 engines ought to work okay, and they are available in a number of different trims. The 230HP single turbo version of this engine costs about half what I paid, and ought to be a lot simpler to get going (remind me again why I didn't get that one??). The 2 litre atmo engine is also available and puts out good power. The 2.5 ought to put out about 180 or so without the cats etc, and the

My "sensible" car is an Impreza 2.5RS, and I have been very impressed with the 2.5 engine. Get a K&N on it and a big intake, and it's a blast!

There is currently no solution for the motor mount bar. I may try and design a bar and produce a few of them, if there is enough interest.

I will try and get those measurements out, once I get home and start working on it - might be tomorrow.

Thanks for all the enthusiasm and support - it means a lot.


Fiid.

The numbers thing didn't bother me that much since I needed a paint job anyway (although it was kinda stupid.).

Here is my car at Laguna Seca with the dreaded numbers.

The IMI-101 is on it's way.

Brad saves the day AGAIN! Thanks dude. You get the trophy.




Heres a question for the group. Is there a difference between the 4 spring and the 6 spring clutch disk? Which do I want? Why?

Hey Fiid,

thanks for posting pics of your car........everytime I think I need a new paint job I'll look at your car and feel better...

For the motor mount: bulkhead style or something similar to the factory /4 unit?

Hi

If you still having a problem the intercooler, there is a upgade for WRX's where you move the intercooler to front.
This may help you to move it to a different location to fit your needs.

I was thinking about doing a mount bar. There isn't much to mount to at the front of the engine and the stock subary mounts are towards the back of the thing. Not sure how it's going to work out, given the exhaust situation. We'll see.... :-) I'd like to get this towards being a fairly easy conversion - it ought to make a wicked car.

There is no problem with the intercooler - that can be resolved by flipping the "alien" around so it hangs over the front instead of the back of the engine. The only downside of this is trying to get the alternator underneith it. I'll have a go at getting this stuff to fit later on, and let y'all know how it goes.

The 6 spring disc is a early 911S based 901 disc. The 4 spring is the stock 914 901 disc.

I NEVER install the 4 spring. They are weak and have a sluggish engagment designed for a VW Bus.

People ask why the clutch prices are higher than others: "um.. because we have a clue and know that the 4 spring disc breaks pretty easy"...LOL


B

I dont want the trophy Fiid.. just your business.


B

Hey fiid, we talking flares on this car? or what? what size tires? Any plans on this? Just curious, cus if you run stock tires with 280hp.. well, lets just say that im thinkin 9" rear flares would do good... 315's sound very tempting! (hehehe) If I had the money..

Andrew

Latest news.....(JON WATTS - you need to know this!)

I have been doing some work to try and figure out the best way of plumbing the engine in.

Turns out that we can't have a big exhaust on the primary turbo. The original application had a restrictive cat on the primary turbo downpipe, and taking that out causes that turbo to over-spin and destroy itself. I think we may need to put quite a small down-pipe on it to similate that.

I just joined the "legacyb4" yahoo group. I'll let y'all know what else I learn!

does it not have a waste gate?

I thought that was the purpose of that?

maybe an aftermarket one?

O maybe i am thinking of a blow off valve i think the waste gate is after the turbo on the manifold and blows off manifold pressure.

I dunno

The primary turbo is VERY small and has an agressive impeller on it. Apparently it spools up almost immediately and provides a lot of power from very low in the rev range. The problem is further up, where it cannot maintain pressure for the engine and the secondary has not kicked in yet. AT this time, the wastegate will be closed, and the turbo won't be able to blow enough air through to keep the intake pressure up. Thisis where I think the danger zone is.

Also - at higher rpms, I think it is necessary to have restriction on the primary turbo to keep it running slower than the secondary - which has different impellers, and ought to be producing more air.

Fiid.

Fiid: Are you going to run the turbos in their stock sequential arrangement or go parallel? I know from my RX7 friends experience that running the stock twins on an RX7 in parallel results in more power. Because of the complexity of the switching mechanism (massive amounts of vacuum lines) people either ditch the stock twins and run a large single or disable the switching mechanism to run parallel. Then again I know that on the rotary the engine exhausts to one side only (single exhaust) so maybe this configuration more readily lends itself to a parallel system than a true dual exhaust would.

I'm going to try and get it going in the stock-ish trim first.

I have heard of bi-turbo (they both kick in at the same time) and single turbo version of this engine (I think single turbo with equal length headers may be the way to go). I have done a lot of reading today and found out that people are able to get 400-450 HP out of this engine.

The first problem is the EFI and Spark control through. I have learned that the stock system uses a MAF sensor, which I don't have, so I'm thinking more about sticking a 36 tooth trigger wheel on it and running Megasquirt and MegaJoltLiteJr. Since I know how to wire this up (and what all the connections do :-) ) this seems like an easier path. The only downside is that I will have to tune the bastard, but I think I'm going to have to do that anyway.

l8r,

Fiid.

The wastegate is often part of the turbo and bypasses the exhaust impeller if there is enough pressure being produced - this is what the boost controller uses to stop the turbo producing more and more boost.

A blow-off valve sits in the compressed air side of the turbo. Basically - if you are at high RPM, high load (and consequently high boost), the turbo is spooled up and pumping a lot of air. If you suddenly let go of the gas, the throttle body closes, and you get a big pressure spike. Suddenly, the turbo is fighting that pressure, and theres nowhere for the air to go, so the blow-off valve is supposed to open here and let that pressure off, so the turbo can spool down safely. Backfires can also cause problems for turbos.

There is a different config that is sometimes used, that feeds comressed air back into the suck side of the turbo, so that the turbo can remain spooled up, so that when you are in your next gear, and gunning for it again, you don't have to endure so much turbo lag.

Terbos is fun, my precioussssss

Hmm, I hadn't considered "designed-in" backpressure.

I think getting this engine to run as it was designed from Subaru would be as hard as totally re-engineering the turbo setup.

Pick your poison.

That's where ya get that Chuf, chuf, chuf sound on decel.....fast and the furious sound effects....

Fiid

MegaSquirt can certainly handle the fuel side of the engine. I'm not sure about the ignition side of it. The problem is driving all the coils. Currently, it is working with 1 coil driver and 1 coil with sparkplug wires or, with the Ford EDIS system which is wasted spark and uses coil packs and sparkplug wires. To run the coil on plug systems you will need 4 coil drivers and a cam sensor to determine which cylinder is to fire. Unless you can figure out how to tap the stock ignition system prior to the cam position sensor you will probably have to give up the coil on plug system. That's way more than I'm capable of.

I've been trying to figure a way to put COP on my car but I can"t get past the cam timing issue. I've got 8 Ford coils from a Crown Vic siting on my bench and they'll probably sit there for a while until someone with some intelligence figures out how to use Mega------- to run COP.

Dave

I have been watching this thread for a while...and am interested in this motor...do all legacy wagons come w/this turbo motor?