Yes for parts that are getting epoxy just brush or spray bottle on, let sit for 30 minutes, soak up extra with rag, spray water on then wipe and repeat the last step. My whole car was done that way and I do all my steel parts I manufacture the same way prior to powder paint.

@ Karl R @mb911 Not sure how this’ll work out, but I foresee working in patchwork fashion in stages; possibly completely prepping some before others.

Thanks for your ideas! I’ve been considering Evaporust, but concerned how easy it is it to neutralize & wash sufficiently in the floorpan without drainage. Just wash down with wet towels or cloths several times, then rust preventative or metal prep depending on work schedule? I welcome any experience with that.

Curious about the same things re Kleen Strip metal prep, mb911.


Ooooops … sorry Ben / Superhawk, you addressed this while I was typing. Cheers

Spray bottle and vacuum from a shop vac. suck it up as you spray it down.

I keep a dedicated "wet" vac ready to go.

Absolute best way to clean and dry out carpet and padding that has been SOAKED in antifreeze due to a heater core leak. You have to drench the floor in water a couple of times to dilute the coolant. PIA

Sometimes I'll go through a couple of "drain the vacuum" procedures during a carpet cleaning so I'm moving 5-10 gallons of liquid.

It would work great for tub flushing.

That would be the owner before me.

- MR

That would be in my driveway after I got the new wheels and tires. Please note this is BEFORE any restoration efforts were started.

- MR

@Zach, I appreciate your suggestion, but am not opposed in this case as I have nothing to hide.

- MR

I had to take a break from posting to this thread for a day to get my blood pressure back under control.

I empathize with Rufus' frustrations. I too had disappointments along the way. It took much longer (7+ years) and cost a lot more than I expected. I got tired of writing multi-thousand dollar checks without getting the car. I was particularly annoyed that the car didn't run quite right when I got it back from Chris's - the carbs popped under partial load. So, exasperated and deeply disappointed, I took the car to Akers for diagnosis. Turned out to be carburetor jetting. Ironically, I embarked on this restoration because I knew it was better to do my own restoration than buy somebody else's. I would know what had and hadn't been done, even if more expensive. Or, so I thought.

Here's the major shop expenses. There were plenty of others. Please note these are only expenses directly related to restoral. No initial PPI, subsequent service/maintenance, etc. Rufus has all the receipts, but I still have the Quicken report for reference.

Rillos: $60K+
Classic Interiors: $10K+
Chris's: $20K+

I realize this is no guarantee of quality workmanship, but doesn't quite strike me as a "budget conscious" restoral effort. What I don't understand is all of the niggling problems he's had since. All the lights, horns, wipers, headlight motors, etc. worked when I sold the car. The car was driven multiple times back and forth between Seattle and Central Washington without drama. I thought it was pretty well sorted by the time it was sold. Then I remind myself these are 50+ year old machines that technically qualify as antiques.

I take no responsibility for the Rothsport inspection or subsequent work. The PPI was done in my garage and I don't have a lift. $1000 doesn't seem too out of line for a 4+ hr. drive each way. Although a hassle, I would've willingly taken the car to any Seattle area shop of Rufus' choosing for a more comprehensive inspection, had Rufus requested. Personally, I would've installed a front oil cooler as the factory did instead of the rear trunk setup chosen if I was convinced additional cooling was warranted. But, it wasn't my car at that point and I figured Rothsport knew what they were doing. I have no idea what changes that introduced.

Did I try to present the car in the most favorable light? Of course I did. But that's far different than knowingly selling a defective car.

Original FS post here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=346147 It's an interesting read with plenty of pictures and a few videos. Please note the (post #34) snip:

Click to view attachment


Unfortunately, this car is now forever tainted by this very public story. Any prospective buyer who does any digging at all will find this. I have a friend who plans to sell his beautiful mid-80s Mercedes with sub-9K miles. I previously suggested he try to sell it private party, since I've had favorable experiences doing so. No longer. I've since advised him to use a broker instead.

I'm very interested in learning what's discovered with the floorpan. If truly bad, then the two well-respected Seattle area shops actively involved in the restoration, plus his PPI provider, failed both of us miserably.

- MR

I've used a bunch of things for rust removal: battery acid, prep and etch, muradic acid, Evaporust.... Pretty much since the start of the iron age folks have been peddling rust removal miracles, so lots of choices. I'm kinda new to the Evaporust, but so far I am super impressed. Not only is it effective at getting back to shiny bare metal, but it is easy on eyes, hands, paint, plating, etc. It removes only rust. It is Ph neutral so nothing to neutralize after. I just rinse and prime. Where you cannot make a puddle, like you can here, I soak a bit of micro fiber cloth, put that on the rust and cover with plastic for a few days.
On the other hand, don't bother with their rust prevention product, RustBlock. It IS non oily, which is nice, but it does not seem to give very solid rust prevention.

I honestly don’t feel this car is tainted.

I am amazed by the $$ put into this car by both parties and how it seems the only winners are the shops that appear to be charging top dollar for workmanship I’d call sort of meh - just phoning it in. It’s not outright bad workmanship- it was just super expensive for what was provided to each of you. Likewise not entirely surprised that issues were created by subsequent work after the sale. Each time a car is messed with it’s all to easy to screw things up that were fine before. This happens sometimes in my home shop. The difference is I don’t get the bonus of billing the customer for the subsequent fix.

I really do appreciate both sides of the story and the names of the shops involved. It seems to me that far too often we tend to sweep stuff like this under the rug under the guise of not wanting to air dirty laundry. But given the $$ that have been pumped into this car, it think it is enlightening to see what is going on within the Porsche community. Since I do my own work, Thankfully, I don’t see it first hand. It makes me believe in doing my own work even more because then I control the end result.

Though I’ll never be in a position to buy this car, I haven’t read anything here that would be prevent me from considering it if I were to hit the lottery.

Here’s to you gentlemen, thanks for sharing the story and the background on this car.

I don’t think it’s tainted. It’s now just very accurately represented. I’m sorry about all the trouble the current and past owners have gone through but it should be a really nice car once it’s finished up.

50 year old cars.
its a wonder they are still here!
karmann built them to disappear (russian steel from ukraine i believe?)/
every 914, but especially sixes deserves every bit of care it can get.

i think most of the first owners drove the things like they stole them and left them parked out in the rain and snow because.........next years model was going to be even better and their six would just be an old beater bomb. (little did they know they were gonna be doomed to a two decade run of water cooled alternatives to the stockbrokers pumped up beetle).

Regards of if there were shortcomings, there are concepts that should be noted.
Don’t create conflicts of interest, that way if a PPI is not through, there’s no financial reward. At least it won’t be salt in the wound.

To be clear - I never had an issue with any of the work that Akers Porsche did. I would recommend them to anyone. Mark and I went for an extended test drive after he rejetted and adjusted the carburetors. He knew the story and wanted to be SURE I was happy with the way the car was running before I took it home.

Likewise, the work done by Steve Shepp (Classic Interiors), now gone.



- MR

Exactly, our "entry level" (at best) are now 1/2 century and most original owners didn't care when they were new. Just the fact many are rolling the roads is a testament the way I see it.

I sometimes ask myself if nagging Chris towards the end to get the car back contributed to the fact it wasn't running right after he was done with it. I stayed in touch with the previous owner, visited him occasionally, and kept him updated on the progress. The sad fact was he was in declining health and I wanted him to see the car, literally before it was too late. IMO, that's still no excuse for letting me have the car with incorrect carb jetting. Quite possibly, they were never corrected to match the new cams.

Two additional data points:
1) The crests on the center caps were hand painted by Harvey Weidman's wife. I thought they were a nice touch.
2) The dashboard is original to the car and in excellent condition. Steve Shepp would never have let it leave his shop, if subpar compared to the new carpeting and reupholstered seats and backpad.

Below is a picture taken outside the PO's assisted living home when he first saw the car again. I gave him a framed picture to keep. He hung on longer than I expected, but is also now gone.

Click to view attachment



- MR

Quote from 5/31/2020 Advertisement:
“- New Elgin 306/288-106 camshafts.”

Service invoice provided after the sale. Started with used Delta cams and had them reground:

photo.

I think it is wonderful that you took the car back to visit the previous owner for him to see and have some great memories before he passed away.

90k spread over 3 businesses is a lot of money to me. A LOT!

Although I don't know if there's any material difference, I'll readily concede this one to Rufus. Chris recommended new cams for more top end and I was mostly working off memory when I put the ad together. Frankly, I forgot that detail.

Would've been more correct to state: "Newly reground cams to Elgin 306/288-106 spec".

- MR

Same here. I would be getting divorced for sure .

@Mountainroads

@Rufus : I don't know what to tell you. Certainly not great, but I still don't know how bad that is. Is the pan soft or perforated, or is the Wurth undercoating compromised? Hopefully, the unbiased here will chime in.

Bottom line: I certainly would've had that fixed if Rillos hadn't assured me it wasn't an issue.

Below are a couple of underside pics prior to Wurth undercoating for reference:


Click to view attachment

- MR

Light from a drop light underneath

The second pic:

Click to view attachment

- MR

One more. Unfortunately, I can't tell exactly where underneath the car these pics were taken. They were all sent to me by Rillos as work was in progress.

Click to view attachment

- MR

Here's a copy of the PPI I received when I purchased the car. Please note on Page 3 (circled) that the underbody was inspected and no mention of rust issues. I believe Rufus has the paper copy.

Click to view attachment

- MR

This is the driver's side floor, about in the middle, looking from the center tunnel at the top of the picture towards the outer long. Front of the car is to the right. The internal cross member sits above the rib that looks wider. The driver's seat is about the larger circular plug on the left.

I guess i’ll be the bad guy . . . Shame on Rillos for just rubbing seam sealer over that and then spraying undercoat.

$60k ? it has become almost impossible to find real craftsmanship in this world.

I just feel terrible for both of you.

The good news is that it is is a /6 and its a survivor and there isnt anything there that hasn’t been dealt with before.

"Hopefully, the unbiased here will chime in" Not sue what this is implying?

That is a nice 914-6. All floor pans rust. Don't take it back to any shops for work. Do work your self. You will spend your money much wiser then a shop.

Matt

Some basic input here after going through all of this

I think the only people to blame are the shops. I don’t think that floor pan would have been discovered in a ppi as it appears it was well hidden.

Only step forward is to properly repair it which if it were in my neck of the woods I would fix that area for around $1000 and it would be undetectable. I hope to see this thread move in a positive direction now.

I think I'm about done posting to this thread. I'm trying hard not to be defensive, but I feel like I'm on public trial. Not sure how much more of value I can add at this point, anyway.

Upon closer inspection now, it appears Rillos might've (I can't tell for sure) used body filler to "fix" the floorpan from below (Post #127). If so, I don't know why he did that instead of welding and he never said anything to me about it at the time. Had he said "This should be welded up.", I would've immediately said "Do it.".

Frankly, I didn't look at the pictures he sent too closely then and simply thought "Oh, he's just cleaning up the bottom before undercoating". I trusted him to take care of what needed fixing and to do a good job. Perhaps that's why he didn't want to do anything from the top side of the pan. IDK.

I again refer to the initial PPI (Post #128, page 4). Although numerous mechanical defects and the front panel repair were noted, they inspected the bodywork and underside and no rust issues were pointed out. I would've gladly shared all the restoration pictures I received and the PPI with any prospective buyer or inspection shop, if requested. Perhaps those items would've informed a different purchase decision.

@Rufus : I feel your frustration and disappointment. I'm still confused why you started poking around under the seats in the first place though, unless it was a quest to find everything possibly wrong with the car? Did your subsequent scraping and wire brushing remove the "repair" that Rillos did, and that exposed the holes?

Do I regret buying the car? Yes and No. It was a journey and I learned a lot. For the time and money I spent, I could've bought and enjoyed a brand new Porsche for multiple years. But, I didn't want a new Porsche. I wanted a new OLD Porsche. Plus, it was my redemption project for totaling another genuine 914-6 in my youth. I believed it was a desirable and well sorted car by the time I let it go.

I also learned that Father Time takes his toll despite our best efforts, and this lesson has since extended to a couple of my other hobbies. What we nostalgically remember as problem-free mechanical devices from a half century ago now have an inevitable degree of frailty, simply due to age. Just like we do.

Lubricants dry up. Metal oxidizes and fatigues. Plastic, rubber, and fiber parts become brittle from innumerable hot and cold cycles and weather exposure, and eventually they fail. It's a true labor of love to keep these cars operational and there's always something that isn't working quite perfectly. Parts, especially -6 specific parts, are becoming harder and harder to find. Some are unobtanium. As another poster noted, it's a miracle so many 914s have been saved and are still road-worthy today.

- MR

Just seeking input from those less emotionally involved.

- MR

I certainly don’t see it that way.

I don’t think your name would have even come up if you had not joined as a voluntary participant.

You’ve added a ton of relevant background and I don’t think you’ve tried to hide anything. After all, your photos of the underbody only add value and show what Rillos did or didn’t do.

If anything I think you got taken by the shops for premium pricing for so so quality work. But I see that as a reflection on the shops not you.

Reading through this thread (took a few minutes), I wouldn't put any fault on either the last or current owners. You both did what you could before buying, tried to represent as best you could.

Rust happens, especially on 914's.

It's honestly been a very interesting read and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the fixes.

I think the information from both parties was useful, and agree that the shops that performed the restoration work were probably the most culpable. That said, I think the OP's best option would be to start a new, fresh thread on the remaining restoration/modification of his already pretty damn cool 914/6. At a certain point you have to quit focusing on who or what "fricked" things up and focus on fixing the problems and the positive, fun aspects of driving and restoring the car.

Is the picture in #123 the bottom of the center tunnel? #129 the light color smear had the cancer behind it? The really dark spots might be a rust conversion product. Get an ice pick and probe around. Move forward.

This really is a nice car that 99.99% of us would be honored to steward through the next phase of its life. Perfection is elusive and those that find it end up with garage queens they can’t drive for fear of a stone chip. Don’t let the quest for perfection prevent you from enjoying this car.

Very well said

I bought a 914 from one of the posters on this thread with a hellhole full of bondo... Long time ago.. well known 914 on world.. A small amount of money bfore its fame ..never the less .. Spilt Milk..

Firewall after 30 seconds of wire brushing by hand …

How does the firewall look in the area right behind the passenger seat? Can we see a picture of that spot? That is usually the spot that’s worst.
Matt

Other side

Firewall behind driver’s seat

Again after 30 seconds of wire brushing by hand (behind driver’s seat)

Behind passenger’s seat. As found; I.e. no wire brushing

Looks like, maybe tastes like, maybe smell like, must be .......

Great example, but the tin worm has taken residence

Whatever you do. . . Don’t panic.

Typical 914 rust location and perforation.

You are probably at a point to stop and take stock of the situation.

Either keep digging and you’ll find more rust. It is not a joke that there is no such thing as a rust free 914. There is ALWAYS rust somewhere unless the car was acid dipped and e-coated. Even then, after a couple years, I’ll bet I can find some minor rust between seams.

Or

Clean up the floor pan tar, fix the minor rust there, seal it up and enjoy the car.

I guess you could also hit pause and do a full blown restoration. Usually I’d be all for that on my cars. I’m that way. But I can do all the work myself and my labor is “free”.

But given how much time and money is already in this car, why not just enjoy it for a while 1st? Especially given how hard it seems to be to find a shop doing quality work based on this thread as well as another thread that’s going on.

My random thoughts. I’m sure others will chime in.

I have .02

Assuming you are not 20 or 30 or even 40 years of age, patch things up and enjoy this beauty. A full scale restoration is a major project with major $$ and major setbacks/delays.