Good thing the rust is not too bad on the firewall. That you should be able to treat the rust in the floor pans is a different story. I would suggest sealing the floor pan from both sides. Enjoying the car as much as you can over the summer. Next winter, find a 914 enthusiast or learn yourself. Most of the floor pan welding can be done from above, you don’t need a lift. You will crawl in the floor for a while, if you’re damaged goods like me, try to do it while it’s warm outside.
It’s not fast. It is humbling. We are here to help.
Matt

So far, you have shown us nothing that is significantly structural. The floors might be almost a concern, and to fix them right would mean welding in new sections. But you could make a temp repair with some patches. Same with the firewall.

@Superhawk996 @930cabman … What’s the first thing to be addressed in doing a “full blown” or “full scale” restoration?

Click to view attachment
Like this 914-6 I am finishing?
Matt

Total disassembly first.

This could be your 914, if your pockets and time frame are in line.

For me, I would inspect for structural deficiencies and assuming none enjoy this beauty.

If structural work is required, go after it with a solid plan and a solid repair facility.

After inspecting for structural deficiencies (no apparent reason to expect any in my case), what problem(s) would be next in line to address?

Guys above have covered it.

I’ll answer as if it were my car.

Short term (this coming year): it is clear that to be a high dollar $100k type car it will need restoration - pans, patch panels work on firewall, and other areas to some degree. This isn’t saying there is anything outrageous. It just has some typical rust in typical areas that weren’t addressed by Rillos for whatever reason. Appears to have some paint runs in engine compartment - not sure if that was paint over of old paint or if Rillos did that?

I would stop digging for more rust. At this point, each time you find a new perforation, it’s just another area needing to be sealed or repaired properly (ie weld in metal).

I would finish removing floor pan tar. I would seal the small perforations with Wurth seam sealer. Epoxy paint interior floor pan with SprayMax 2k. Reapply undercoat to any exposed perforated areas underneath.

We’ll call it a short term redneck restoration.

Then I would drive it - enjoy it. Sort out whether there are any other unknown mechanical issues & document any you might want to address in future (gear box, suspension, seal leaks, etc).

Get to know the car and decide if it is the car to keep (I would) or if you want to sell it after you know it better. At this point, given the selling price and what you have in from Rothsport, you’re probably at or around a break even point. The longer you keep it, drive it, and enjoy it, the more value there is for you.

Long term - strip it down and go full bare metal rotisserie on it. When it goes back together that’s the time to take care of any of the mechanical issues you would have noted.

The problem here is:

1) Time - not sure how old you are or how long you want the car off the road. Less time to do resto = more cost. It’s the old saying - you can have quality, cheap, or quick: pick two.

2) This car is underwater financially already given the money put in by prior owner, your purchase cost, and the Rothsport bill. A full professionally done resto and quality re-paint only goes further in the hole - financially speaking. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it. It is a /6 after all and they aren’t making any more. I don’t see this being a positive financial return in the short term but given current inflation rate, it won’t be cheaper to do in the near future than it will be now.

3) Quality labor is apparently way harder to find and way more expensive than it used to be. I would think you would need to reach out to some of the other /6 guys to get a 1st hand recommendation on who they used, and what it cost. Then put out for bids.

I don’t envy the decision about undertaking a full resto since you’ve indicated you’re not in a position to do it all yourself (no shame there). A full blown professional resto is a guarantee to lose lots of money. As I said previously the pursuit of perfection leads to a garage queen.

Well stated, my vote stays with enjoy this beauty and hold off any major restoration

I'm enjoying your attention to detail and your sharing the dissection of your car, ultimately this will be valuable history/records for the car.

This seems to be therapeutic for you to really get to know your car and making it to your liking/expectations - everyone's expectations will be different. Keep up the progress, fix what can be fixed, keep getting to know your car.

But at some point, the next step will be to address handling and drivability...

@infraredcalvin … Thanks, you nailed some things swirling around my mind. I’ve done much of my own work for years; except paint & body, and transmission & engine rebuilding which I’ve left to professionals. Consider my work a bonding experience with each car.

My current dilemma is I have 4 other sizable projects in various stages of completion on my plate. When I bought the 914/6, I was looking for a turn key car to drive and enjoy. That’s what I thought would result from the steps taken based on the seller’s advert and description, the professional PPI, and associated follow up work; not another project.

With the discovery of a second area of rust yesterday, I’m taking a step back to reconsider options. Not sure I can live happily with a car with such underlying / hidden issues.

As always, input from the group is greatly appreciated

Do your own survey of the car. Relax, take your time, be thorough. Probe around with an ice pick. Not stab, probe. If the pick should go thru, it only leaves a tiny hole. Grinders leave scars. The car looks good. If it runs and handles, enjoy it. Convert any rust you might find with a converter product like Mar-Hyde. No one will know unless you point out the flaws.

If you haven’t, take a look at Cairo's restorations thread, then his most recent post “evolution”… these cars are never done when getting to one’s own liking. Also note the new welding that’s about to occur, it can be done, and I’ll bet it’ll end up being an invisible upgrade.

Your car is perfect for your desire, fix the firewall, treat the topside of the floor, add undercoat below and tar above and drive… youll have a car that you wont necessarily worry about road rash. Finish the other projects then get back to this car…. At this point the goal should be to preserve, better the car if you can, stop the tinworm, it’ll retain its value just fine.

I must say the thought that the current rust situation on this car is a big deal on a 914 which litterly rusted the minute they left the factory is a bit comical. That said I do understand you bought this thinking these issues don’t exist. For a 914 it’s pretty easy to repair what you have found so far. Find someone local to repair it professionally and you will be all set. Martin mid engines Ben Martin would be on my list to contact if I was in your situation.

Ps you should look at my build thread as there probably is only 1/3 of the original metal left on my car.

Oops you’re in NC not the west coast. NC has to have some great welder fabricators in your area your in NASCAR territory

Given the general "vibe" of this thread, it feels like this whole experience has left a bad taste in your mouth. To a degree, I guess I can understand this. If it's something that you can't get past, it might be time to sell it, especially given all your other projects. The upside to that is that you can probably still get most of your money out of it due to the fact that it's a six.

On the other hand, you now have six that you are into at a reasonable amount of money. If you can move past the intial downer, you can still make the necessary repairs and own a piece of history at a very reasonable price. More importantly, you now get to drive a 914-6. That, in and of itself, would be enough for me.

If you go the route of keeping the car, Rusty Acres is in Western NC(Dlee6205 on this site), ....I'm sure he could help out with the rust repairs. Good luck no matter which way you go.

And great suggestion for whom to repair it.

Thanks for your input guys.

As I stated, based on the seller’s advert claims and Gamroth’s positive PPI report, I concluded such rust issues were not present.

Posters have referred to “full scale restoration(s)” and “full blown restoration(s)”. My expectation of “started no expense spared restoration” and “full repaint” as stated by the seller, equaled, or even surpassed those in quality and scope.

I wonder if you may have recourse with the seller and/or PPI source?

Disclosure is a big thing these days, as it should be

The first 5 or 6 years that Six was in the PNW and sat outside, broke down for a while.. no surprise..

If you can't live with a car with some minor rust (at least what you have found so far) or with the uncertainty of what you have not uncovered so far, then I see three choices:
1. Patch repairs on the small rust spots.
2. More complete and fussy restoration.
3. Unload the car as-is.

And if you have to pay for bodywork and paint, then option 1 will cost some, and might be close to cost-effective, relative to resale. Option 2 is not close at all, and would be a purely emotional commitment.

I may be an outlier here, but you continue to point to the seller as a source of your issues. I see someone who presented fairly what he knew and what had been done to the car, which you bought sight unseen, yes with a PPI, but still.

You hired the PPI done, from a place you then paid to do a bunch of work. You did this, the seller didn't.

Give the guy a break. You bought a car he clearly had dumped a ton of money into. Money spent at well known places. I see no ill intent here at all.

I’m going to restate what I’ve said before. I think each of you (buyer and seller) got taken for a ride by supposedly reputable shops that aren’t delivering on their percieved reputations.

The PPI is very short, lacking details of its exterior review and does have what would be considered red flags.

“Before deciding to purchase, I hired Jeff Gamroth to perform a PPI for $1000. Here’s his report:

“Exterior:
Initial walk around shows all body gaps excellent, with excellent paint.
No signs of major rust issues, found 1 10mm diameter bubble under paint below passenger side sail at leading edge of quarter panel.
Trunks both excellent.
Fuel tank and related plumbing excellent.
Undercoat heavily applied.
Top in excellent condition, latches very good.
Leading edge Targa top seal needs re-gluing to windshield frame.
Bumper chrome very good and aluminum trim very good.”

Let me break this down knowing what is now known post-sale.

The PPI notes state no “major” rust. The rust found so far is very typical for a 914 and would not be considered major or structural by most of the 914 community. This may be one of the few exterior PPI statements that I can agree with.

The bubbling of paint is due to something that isn’t right with the paint. Bubbling can be from rust, improper sealing of substrate like primer or body filler, or improper paint thinner for the temperature that flashes too fast trapping solvent below. Bubbling can also be the result of incompatible paint systems. In my opinion, this is a red flag on a car that was recently repainted.

Heavily applied undercoat is always a red flag IMHO.

The top seal improperly glued / fitted - again a sign of lackluster workmanship at the time of paint.

The presence of the original floor pan tar below the seats again should have been noted in the PPI. The fact that the tar was still there given the money spent on bodywork is a red flag. For the money spent, I would have expected the paint shop to have stripped that tar to properly assess and deal with what might have been below. Rust below the OEM floor pan tar is a known 914 problem area. Why this didn’t get done at the time the body was repainted is an unknown.

Frankly, this isn’t much of a PPI for the exterior. No measurements of paint thickness or body filler use / thickness? Unacceptable in my book. I don’t know if photos came with the PPI or if this was only written notes. No photos in my opinion is in an era where we all have a camera in our pocket . At that point buyer is 100% trusting a supposed expert’s verbal opinion sight unseen? As previously stated, for $170, I got a PPI with photo documentation on a vehicle I recently bought. Even so, the PPI was done after I had personally viewed the car in person. Personally, I can’t imagine buying a car at this price point without seeing it in person.

Again this totally discounts that the PPI didn’t note the incorrect front apron / front sheetmetal that isn’t original or correct for a /6. This was incompetent in my opinion.

Lastly - with regard to the fuel system. Again PPI notes were incorrect in hindsight. Stainless steel braided flex lines are not original nor are they the proper replacement such as stainless steel hard lines. Again a red flag. Given that Rufus had to replace the braided lines only confirms how wrong the Rothsport PPI was.

Having said all that, this is still a nice car worth enjoying. Don’t let an incompetent PPI ruin the /6 experience. This is still a car 99.99% of us would love to own.

Most of all I beg those reading this thread to thoroughly and properly verify the shops - reputation isn’t enough in this day and age. This thread should be a warning that there ARE shops out there coasting on their reputation and ripping off their customers. Even though there likely isn’t criminal intent by the shops, they aren’t delivering a decent service at a reasonable price. Build in a conflict of interest with the shop doing both the PPI, and subsequent repair work, and I don’t see how this could have ended well.

Please be careful with statements like these. I can’t see how turning toward litigation would solve anything.

Mistakes were made at multiple levels by both buyer and seller trusting shops reputations that in hindsight haven’t lived up to expectations.

The key word being expectations. I can expect the moon for a pittance but am unlikely to get it.

Without clearly defined contracts stating expectations about the PPI quality to be delivered, or from Rillos about scope and quality of work to be performed, it is all just a vague expectation.

I’m not a lawyer and I’m sure there is some sort of implied fitness for purpose that might apply or implied warranty. Yada, yada.

Just don’t see that making this litigious solves anything given the fact that the car was bought sight unseen based on the PPI which in hindsight is clearly flawed IMHO.

I truly feel terrible for the stress that both buyer and seller have gone through. Why make it worse with litigation?

Nobody can know the actual condition of a 914 chassis until it’s disassembled and blasted or dipped. Paint and filler can hide a lot and you can’t take apart a car to do a ppi. On the other hand, a bubble in the paint is caused when the metal underneath starts to corrode. I’ve seen small bubbles that once blasted, have been hiding rusty holes. Paint doesn’t rust so it’s the last surface to show evidence of the problem below.

A little sanding with 400 grit, followed by rubbing with acetone soaked Q-tips & paper napkins

Bottom pic after Evaporust gel applied

Interesting.

So I don’t see a second coat of paint under that one. So are the paint runs from Rillos?

I don’t mean to be insensitive by disregarding the rust.

It’s just that I’m amazed by the bill for bodywork, only to get runs like that.

Probing after cleanup from a couple of days soaking with Evaporust gel. Numerous (5) probe (awl) pushes in different spots; two perforations

I think the takeaways from this thread are:
1) All 914's are going to have unseen and/or undiscovered rust unless the body shell has been completely disassembled and blasted down to bare metal with written and photo documentation to support it. Anything less at this point and you cannot believe anyone's claim that the 914 has undergone a "complete" restoration;
2) No "restoration" that has not yet been through Step 1 is going to have hidden rust;
3) All 914's have had rear windows which leaked water into the interior. That water puddled under the seats and soaked through the tar sound deadening. The floorpans below the seats are going to be rusted out to a greater or lesser degree by this time in their life.
4) All 914's have doors that leak water, both inside of the door and into the interior of the car. That will water leakage is going to cause rust after 50 years. Door seams and channels are going to have some rust out after 50 years of water leaks.
5) Never buy a car sight unseen.

Since receiving the car in Nov 2020, nobody has touched the car but me. As described in this thread, I’ve done a number of things, but no paint or painting. I have no reason to think Rothsport did anything re paint.

MR will have to address what happened up to July 2020 when Gamroth picked it up for me

This whole thing has got to be a terrible experience. The only way to do things right are to do them yourself or someone that is truly a friend do it. I would say at the moment there are a few that do top notch work. PMB, and Patrick are among those. Very rarely do you hear of things going sideways there.

Rufus at this point you just have to pass it on to someone to properly fix or you probably need to sell it as my sense is you won’t be happy with it as is.

Really

Who’d like buying a car with rust hidden underneath a fresh coat of shiny paint? Especially one represented as a “no expense spared restoration”, and with nothing reported by a professional PPI wrt the suspicious interior floor pan appearance which might be indicative of broader problems, among other things? Not me

Maybe you should change the thread title.

Depends. I know you said you do most of your own work but not engine, transmission, body work and paint etc. well to be honest that’s a big portion of ownership of a classic car. For me if you car was offered at your purchase price and I had the spare cash I would be all over it. For me these are very simple and inexpensive fixes.

But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not.

If I paid top dollar, I would want a premium car. Being the CSOB I am, I have never bought a "nice car" (my wife can attest to that), so my expectation is always somewhat low. This is unfortunate, especially when you thought you were buying a premium car and was "confirmed" with a third party inspection. I would be upset too

As Superhawk has mentioned, getting lawyers involved would only make things worst, my advice would be to cut your loss and move ahead. This a real /6 and should be enjoyed as such. Complete the repairs as time/funds allow and have fun in the mean time

Fact 1: Only today, in 2024, MR admittedly made “one of the few cost-control concessions” in 2014 of opting not to expose down to the bare floor panels. (And apparently not to address the firewall either as I discovered … a “full repaint” as per MR’s 2020 advert?)

Fact 2: when advertising the car for sale in 2020, he described starting a “no expense spared restoration” on the car.

Fact 3: and state in 2024 here in this thread: “It was indeed a no expense spared (relatively, and within reason) body restoration …”


Draw your own conclusions… what would motivate someone to do this??

Another fact by his own admission:


Facts: as shown by my numerous photos

I’ll let others draw their own conclusions re credibility…
and on the credulity of Rillos not informing the owner of the firewall rust

Who is this MR? What is your total investment at this point?

MountainRoads

And why would someone switch to selling like this in last November?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-911t-coupe/

BTW: Super driving video. Worth watching with the volume up

Yeah, many possible reasons. But my experience is when a number of seemingly random signs point to the same conclusion, they’re often right.

Draw your own conclusions

I was 69 in 2020 when I bought the car. I’m 73 now. A significant part of retirement spent in frustration due to Gamroth and MR. What’s that worth?

Quoting MR:
“ As far as the disclosure form (post #51), it’s hard to read, but the attestation on line 1 is the car never sustained accident damage greater than 25% of it’s value, which is true.”

MR Quote from post #78: “The story I got was either one of them, or one of their wives, did a little off-roading one day at the track and smacked the front end, presumably necessitating a front panel replacement. Rillos noticed it wasn't quite correct for a 1970 while fitting the front valance.”

What was in that form is beside the point. Nothing about the car having an “event” which caused a body panel replacement, plus additional custom fitment adjustments was previously disclosed or reported to me by MR or Gamroth. Even when the subject of accident disclosure came up after the fact with MR.

Draw you own conclusions

No one here has anything to gain by writing a controversial post regarding this situation so I am not sure why I (or anyone else) is even posting at this point, but in my opinion you paid driver quality money for a driver quality car.

Maybe you are disappointed, I get it, but Full resto real sixes have been selling for $100,000 plus for many years now.

Over and out.

Driver quality = “no expense spared restoration”?

Really??

Look at MR’s advert again. His initial ask was $59,500 for what he described as a “no expense spared restoration”. My problem is the contradiction between what I got and what was advertised by MR and confirmed by Gamroth. Has nothing to do with what other transactions are today or were before; only the willing buyer and seller in this transaction. My $$$ was good; the car … not as represented to me.

And a friendly reminder … if you aren’t interested in my thread, nobody’s forcing you to read it. Bye bye.

What do you want? Honestly.... What the hell do you want? You want us all to cry and bitch for you? Many of use tried and tied again to help you. A lot of experience is on 914world. We are trying to help.
Matt

I'm sorry, what does this BAT listing have to do with any of this?