FWIW, I have PO’s signature on this …

He also passed along a copy of Bruce Johnson’s The 914 & 914/6 Porsche (which I already had a copy of).

It depends upon how many owners your car has had. If your seller was the original owner, that helps a lot. If there has been several owners, it is hard to say what information was or was not passed along and the ability of someone to identify incorrect things.

Proving prior knowledge and/or ill intent is a very hard to do. But again, understand the frustration.

Personally, that’s where I get more mad at the PPI incompetence. At that price point, you’re paying someone for their supposed expertise.

Last year I bought a used BMW X5 and had a local Euro shop do a PPI because I’m not well versed in X5 issues and problem areas. $170 and it was well documented with findings and pictures of problem areas identified.

Fully agree though with previous comments that buying without in person inspection can be fraught with peril and in this case the PPI had a conflict of interest built in. At a $1000 price point for PPI, I would have expected more accurate info and would not have expected the $11k invoice. Not clear to me if all that invoiced work was requested by OP or not. His initial ten item “to do” list shouldn’t have been an $11k exercise. In all fairness, I’m thinking there may be more to that story. Usually illegal for a shop to do that scope of work without estimates and owner approval before proceeding with the work.

Most, but not quite all work I approved is shown on the emails in Post #3. The turbo tie rods & brake proportioning valve were approved verbally. Most all the rest I wasn’t consulted on and did not approve. I had a $10,000 credit on deposit with Jeff for an aborted build project on another 914/6:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=349520&hl=

… plus this ‘74 914 6-conversion intended for use in the aborted 914/6 project above:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...mp;hl=Rothsport
It was parted out and sold off later from Rothsport.

Lots of sound ideas posted, including this one. Thanks guys.

I’ll take awhile deciding how to proceed. But I think one important factor is whether I can do the work myself. It’s been my practice since my first car repair disappointment in 1971. Central will be whether there’s any welding involved; something not in my repertoire. Another factor is whether rust removal, prep, priming and painting can be accomplished without further interior disassembly than seats, backpad, carpet, etc., without damaging other car surfaces, or creating a hazardous environment in the garage. I have no room in my home garage, and the car’s a “guest” in my wife’s two car garage alongside her Toyota. Thoughts?

We win/lose on cars.
Fix it and enjoy it.

Life is too short.
Have your moment of anger….decide to fix or sell
Then do it.

Just got my freshly rebuilt engine back into my 2006 911S….and I get it….shit happens.

I hope you can get to a point you enjoy the car.

I drove mine home a few weeks ago, after 9 months with no engine.
It’s amazing.

Make it yours….or sell it to the next guy.

Rich

Even if you can’t weld, you can do the grunt work of stripping the factory tar off the floor pan. Otherwise, you are paying shop rate ($100-$200/hr depending) to just figure out what needs to be done.

If you’re OK with writing more $11k checks - there’s nothing wrong with that either. Assuming, you can find competent labor which is getting progressively harder in this day and age.

I’ll always encourage folks to do and learn, at least that way, you control the end result. If you’re not happy with that, you then have a better understanding of where all the labor $$ are coming from when you pay someone else.

There’s wisdom in these words.

I would start asking around your area to see who can do the needed repairs. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a Porsche shop. Just someone with some skill and a place to do the work. Good luck with the car. Many of us have been in similar situations. Disappointing but get things fixed, put it behind you and enjoy the car.

Haha I lived in wa ,,,call John ,, ask Gamroth for a refund.. caveat emptor
My GT was there..

Build a new or add on to your existing garage. Otherwise move your wife’s Toyota outside and cover it with a car cover. Your wife’s car is not worth 80 K. I don’t know how you explain it to her that’s your job.
Matt

The "I was told excuse"

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I should have been clearer. Seeking thoughts on if and how complete rust repair can best be accomplished (if no metal removal or welding is required) within these constraints:

1) removal of only those interior items necessary to expose the entire floor surface; seats, backpad, carpet, seat belts, while covering the dash & gages and door panels as necessary, and without affecting exterior car surfaces. In the past I did an acceptable limited rattle can rocker panel repaint with an Automotive Touchup brand color matching paint and thorough masking in my garage.
2) work cannot create a hazardous, noxious or dirty environment in the garage.

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

Finally, if floor pan section(s) need replacement, what extent of disassembly will be required?

No.

914 floor pans typically rust from inside out from water accumulated inside by leaking rear window, leaking side window seals, and if the top gets left off in the rain. That moisture gets under the tar and does its thing over time.

Working on underbody is a PITA without a hoist or rotisserie. Can be done but it’s not terribly fun.

By removing the factory tar from the interior, you’ll know what you’re dealing with. If you have heavy rust that has perforated, you will be able to tell after the tar is removed.

Once you see what you have underneath the tar, you can come up with an action plan.

Honestly, given how few miles you’ve driven, why even mess with it right now?

Go drive. Decide if you even want to keep the car before opening up a can of worms and doing some sort of repair that will potentially devalue the car if not done properly.

Just read through this thread- sorry to hear of your troubles but not too surprised. The engine in my car was done at Rothsport and while it goes great at WOT there were several things that I would have expected to be better given the reputation of the shop including one that resulted in fuel being sprayed all over the engine. I will be pulling my engine to go back on the dyno to double check the rest of the tuning as the throttles can’t be synced at idle and there is a knock at certain RPMs. Kinda feels like they just pushed the job though.

I doubt that Gunther has any issues with the details of the work done there. Just sayin.

Anyway I agree with Superhawk. I hate know that something is not up to snuff on my cars but these days I have to ask myself how I want to spend my time. Also wire brush on a grinder is the way I have removed rust like that in the past. It usually ends up revealing hidden pin holes in the metal while simultaneously making a big mess. I’d definitely want to do that work outside.

If I were to take the job without welding and it turned out that there are holes I have used tigers hair to resurface the sheet metal before with good results. But again- getting it sanded down with the orbital sander is a dusty job.

Given the garage situation I’d wait till the next winter season and farm this one out to a pro.

Pete

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Pete. Wishing you success in getting resolution soon.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, Superhawk. Under different circumstances, I might just drive the car and address the rust in the future.

I feel very close to my daughter and sympathetic to challenges she could face “when the time comes”. I was a stay at home Dad for her, my only child. My car situation was a mess before buying the 914/6. Driving one has been a long time desire. I face the choice between making progress by addressing the rust now, or selfishly enjoying the car now, and letting things go. I’ll happily sacrifice some of the time I have left to ease things on her later on. As they say, Karma’s a b____.

Does you daughter intend to keep the car when she gets it? I am heavily involved in collecting baseball cards. Many of my fellow collectors have plans to either sell their collections before they go or have a detailed plan on another expert to sell it. If she would rather have the cash than the car I would make a plan for the car that doesn't involve her having to move it. You likely know how to get a higher return on it and it is one less thing that she will have to deal with.

And then if she wants to keep it, what is her opinion on the repairs?

25yo daughter’s doing well making her way thru life so far; now in Charlotte after a couple years living & working in Germany after college. 5-6 older cars in the mix, so would be best if she picked just one … maybe. My tastes in cars evolved quite a bit over the past 50yrs. Imagine hers might too. And then there’s the question of what future conditions will be like. Would an extra, non-essential car bring pleasure or be a burden?

Thanks for chiming in dstudeba. Lots to think about, huh?

Sorry to hear of your experience with Rothsport. I know the name, but nothing of their reputation.

On the upside, you have a nice car and hopefully any repairs needed won't be too extreme.

It's nice that your daughter is interested in the car(s). Out of the 5 kids between my wife and I, my son is the youngest at 31. He actually bought my 83 911 from me a few years ago but wants to sell it back. Being in the military, gone a lot and with a young family, he's just not using the car. I'll end up with that, my 356 and a few 914's. My goal is to thin the herd a bit and then discuss with him long term about whether he wants any of them. I'm 61, so I have some time, but I don't want to leave a mess for my kids to handle.

If the PPI is done by a guy doing the work, and so many things were noticed after the PPI, the cost of the PPI should’ve been credited against the total. With a community as strong as ours, I’ve found that most people will do a PPI as a pay-it-forward courtesy or for a nominal fee to cover their expenses. I usually just ask for a donation to St. Jude’s. Any purchase of 15K and I’ll travel to see the car before purchasing. The plane ticket is cheap insurance.

All this said, it looks like you have a great car to enjoy. And profit from if you decide to sell.

@jhynesrockmtn @iankarr Thanks for your thoughts and kind words guys.

After time researching and considering the situation, my determination to make the car right hasn’t changed; hopefully will do it myself, as I prefer.

Will post photos as I get into the process of exposing the floorpan.

I think the 914 has the perfect combination of practicality, size, overall performance attributes, and is a blast to drive.

Congratulations! You will not regret it.

If my now deceased Father would have left me a car that nice, I would have little concern about some hidden rust.

@Rufus


These pictures make it look easy but, here is what the pan replacement looks like. When you open up the bottom, you can fix of reinforce the clutch tube that has or will go out. It is just a matter of time for all 914s. Do it right because no matter what the documenting of this work is very important for resale and you want the comfort of knowing it is right. Mine was done on a lift. Mine is a real 6, the 30th one down the line

Best Bob B
Click to view attachment Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Thanks Bob. The result looks awesome!

Definitely not within my skill set.

Is floor pan replacement advisable, or even possible, without completely stripping the car down? (I’m totally ignorant of body & paint work.) Things like wiring harness, shift linkage gotta come out 1st, or not?

Thanks for your encouragement guys.

I stumbled upon this thread while perusing the early911sregistry. Although I normally refrain from engaging publicly in dirty laundry discussions, I feel compelled to in this case due to the multiple things being inferred, and to set the record straight. My response is not to refute or contest what Rufus states. I too would be unhappy if I bought a car that was significantly different than what I thought I was getting, and that Karma is a nasty lady. This is simply my contribution to “just the facts”.

First and foremost, I'm genuinely sad and disappointed to learn that Rufus isn't happy with the car. This car was sold in good faith and with no effort to deceive or mislead, just as every other car I've ever sold. The transaction went smoothly and we stayed in communication for a while, afterwards. I thought I had a new friend and would've been happy to answer any questions he had, even long after I sold it.

I bought this car from a gentleman in Tacoma, Washington. It was his pride and joy. (He also had two 914-4s.) I had the PPI done and engine dyno'd by Chris Powell at Chris's German Auto in Redmond Washington, prior to purchase. Chris is a PCA Nation Technical Committee Member and answers technical questions for 1974 - 1994 911s in Panorama. Chris's assessment was although tired and having needs, the car was solid overall. Knowing restoral wouldn't be cheap, he asked: "How badly do you want a 914-6?" I was happy to find a decent specimen relatively close to home and said: "Pretty badly." To my knowledge, I became the 4th owner.

I kept the car for a couple of years while deciding exactly what I wanted to do and began to gather parts, including a set of beautifully restored 7X15 Fuchs with RSR finish, courtesy of Harvey Wiedman. I was particularly proud of sourcing some NOS genuine 914-6 GT vented rear rotors still in boxes and wax paper, so I wouldn’t have to use cut-down 911 rear rotors with the incorrect offset.

Some research and inquiries within the local Porsche community led me to Rillos Restoration in Kent, Washington. Rillos has a good reputation and has done some award-winning cars. Although mostly American, he had a couple of 911s and a 4-cam 356 while I was there. The only caution I received was to keep an eye on billable hours because it's easy for things to get out of control. There was never a suggestion of unethical charging or poor workmanship. It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration with some desirable functional updates.

Interior work was performed by Steve Shepp at Classic Interior Restorations in Ballard, Washington. Steve was popular with the Ferrari crowd and has done some Pebble Beach award cars. It was one of the very last cars he ever did.

Chris Powell finished the engine and transmission refreshment while the body and interior work were done, so the car then went back to Chris's for mechanicals installation. Lots of little things to be sorted out along the way and some imperfections, but at no point was there any mention of major concerns with the work that had previously been done.

I kept the car for a couple of years and finally decided to sell because 1) The car was kept at a weekend place in Central Washington. Although a hoot to drive and the local roads there are much more conducive to spirited driving than Seattle, I never seemed to have the time to drive it as much as I wanted to. There always seemed to be something else that needed to be worked on or required attention. 2) I was dealing with some minor health issues at the time and wasn’t sure how much recreational driving I’d be up for going forward. So, I posted the car for sale on 914World. All restoral and service receipt documentation was passed along to the buyer.

To address some of the specific points:

1) RUST. Although there was some minor (mostly) cosmetic body rust, the multiple expert consensus (Kirsten Rillos, Chris Powell, and Mark Akers) was the car was surprisingly free of rust for being a Western Washington car its whole life. The only part that needed to be replaced due to rust was the battery tray. No damage to the longitudinal, etc. I know how expensive rust repair is. I would not have bought the car if I knew it had major rust issues. The car was always garaged and never even driven in the rain during my ownership. It was mostly garaged on the dry side of the state.

Unless things have dramatically changed, I firmly believe what looks like floorpan rust is only damage to the sound deadening material on top. I noticed that during painting and asked Kirsten about it. He reassured me it wasn’t serious and there was no evidence of damage from the underside when he removed the old undercoating. It became a “Oh well, that’s under the seats and not visible” thing. It was one of the few cost-control concessions and I never questioned the solidity of the floorboards. I never sensed any weakness or give to them, and definitely would’ve replaced them had I known they were suspect. Why go to the trouble of welding in a rear suspension stiffening kit but not address a suspect floorpan? I even had a patch panel welded into the firewall where a hole had been cut so the timing marks on the fan pully could be more easily seen. (A practical consideration since 911 cases don't have the notch for seeing the marks on the flywheel, as 914-6 cases do.) If there were any major rust issues, then three reputable shops never raised the concern. Four if you want to include the Interior guy who had the car for over a year.

2) ACCIDENT DAMAGE. This car was never advertised as “accident-free”. I believe one or both of the first two owners tracked the car. The story I got from the third owner was one of them, or one of their wives, did a little off-roading one day at the track and damaged the front end, presumably necessitating a front slam panel replacement. I'm not sure the hood was even replaced. Rillos noticed it wasn’t quite correct for a 1970 while fitting the front valance, I had sourced. I forget the details of the fix, but he altered it to make it appear correct. As far as the disclosure form (post #51), it’s hard to read, but the attestation on line 1 is the car never sustained accident damage greater than 25% of it’s value, which is true.

3) DRIVABILITY ISSUES: I too noticed the gas smell. That’s why I replaced the original plastic fuel line with braided steel over rubber. Much less noticeable afterwards and I attributed any lingering smells to the carburetors. There are a couple of threads on 914World, which I researched heavily, discussing whether or not a 1970 914-6 should have a charcoal tank vapor capture cannister.

I didn't have nearly as many electrical issues. The turn signal switch was broken when I bought the car. I sourced a used replacement and Akers installed it. The washer pump needed to be replaced. The horns were anemic, so I replaced them with used Bosch Mercedes units. The only broken wire I remember was to one of the rear license lights, which I fixed myself. Never a problem with headlights, etc. In hindsight, I could've replaced the wiring harness, but I didn't because it seemed serviceable and new is not always better.

There should be no gas tank sediment as the tank was supposedly cleaned and sealed by Chris’s. Ditto for the fuel tank screen sock. Both are big surprises and definitely should've been taken care of by Chris's.

Although far from great condition, the car was driven to Rennsport and back by the previous owner. AFAIK, without issues. And, that was before any restoration efforts.

4) GAMROTH PPI. Jeff Gamroth made the trek from south of Portland to Central Washington with one of his employees to do the PPI. They did an engine-cold compression and leakdown test before firing it up for further inspection and listening for any inappropriate noises. They seemed to know what they were doing. Jeff and I then went for a test drive and I guarantee he pushed the car harder than I ever did. Then again, he’s a professional driver. They showed up again a few weeks later with a box trailer after the sale had been completed and took the car back to Jeff’s shop. I can’t comment on subsequent inspection or work.


Bottom line: It’s a real shame that this car has received such unfavorable attention. It was never intended to be a Concours contender or presented as a perfect 100 pt. restoration. It was sold as a 50+ year old, mildly hot-rodded, driver-quality car which frequently received unsolicited compliments. Nathan Merz, Columbia Valley Luxury Cars and regular PCA contributor, took a look at the car for a celebrity client when it was for sale. Although not a formal PPI, he has a practiced eye and poked around pretty good. He passed on the car and I didn't ask why, but didn't get the sense it was because of quality concerns. My guess is his client was looking for something more original.

Lastly and FWIW: Mark Akers, the owner of Akers Porsche, became quite familiar with this car for service and regular maintenance both before and after the restoration was completed. He was interested in buying it when he found out I was selling, but the timing wasn’t good for him. It was mid-pandemic and many were being careful with their discretionary spending. I don’t know, but suspect that extended to his customers, as well. He called me about a year later to ask if I still had the car and was disappointed to learn it had been sold. He subsequently told me, and has repeated to several other folks, that he regretted not buying it.

Rufus, I suggest with no snarkiness at all, that you might want to contact him if you’re really unhappy with the car. Mark knows the car well and certainly has the talent and resources to address any outstanding deficiencies. I spent over $120K on the purchase and restoration, fully knowing I would never get it back. I advertised it at $59,500 and sold it to you for $56,500. That still seems like a pretty good deal to me, even accounting for the unexpected warts. You should be OK financially, although I know that doesn’t address your frustration or disappointment.

- MR

The End..

Maybe. More like Paul Harvey's "And now for the rest of the story..."

As a somewhat tangential sidenote - I bought an early 911 a couple of years ago and wanted the PPI done by the shop close to the seller, since they were familiar with the car. I trusted them to give me an objective report. They told me "Sorry, we don't do those anymore." When asked why, they responded "liability concerns". Several recent high-profile cases (Jerry Seinfeld, etc.) had convinced them that the income from doing the work wasn't worth the risk of missing something and then having the buyer come after them. Now I better understand their concern.

- MR

Full disclosure: I've edited my post above a couple of times as additional details came to mind.


- MR

@rufus I guess that the bottom line is If you could buy it for what you have into it to date in the condition it's in, would you?
As there aren't many of these, the answer may be yes. Not as good of a deal, but you will have the knowledge that you can be assured of the condition, once done.

There is no good outcome without spending money, either litigation, or restoration. Restoration is the best value in my opinion. You may get lucky on the floorboards, use the dry ice technique. MUCH faster.

We do PPI’s at our shop with the caveat that there are no warranties or guarantees. It’s only an opinion of condition and we might miss something. Actually, we are sure to miss something because until you chemically dip the car, it’s all a guess. It’s almost impossible to know what’s under the paint, inside the trans or how much material is worn off the engine bearings. 50 year old cars, multiple owners, multiple people servicing and repairing the vehicle. I don’t like to hear about anyone getting taken advantage or getting less than they expect but no matter how careful you are, it’s still a lottery.
I do hope the OP gets a chance to work things out and enjoy the car.

The first 10 minutes of process of exposing the driver’s side floorboard:

Progress.

I am just about 99% convinced there is no rust free 914.

Either way, great example

Why the time stamp?
Matt

There are 0 rust free 914's or 9146 originals.
@Rufus I don't think you realize how nice the metal still is in your 6. I had to replace the bottom four inches of most of the 6 car I saved. 5 years and its almost road ready.
Matt

Just to indicate how long it took to make this much progress removing what covered the metal footboard. 10 minutes so far

Those floorboards look really solid so far. In a best case scenario, every floor I've ever seen underneath that coating looks similar to yours...a little surface rust and dirt. While I understand some of your frustration that this should have been addressed before paint, I'd say your car looks very solid. Congrats!

Looks like it will clean up nicely

Those floors are pristine.

You have started so you may as well finish stripping them of the tar. Then clean them and paint them and put a modern sound insulator on them (Dynamat or similar) and forget about them. They are fine.

I'd also consider taking down anything with personal information on it from your post. That's really not cool.

I hate seeing these types of posts. They don't break rules, but they do nothing to forward the forum or the love of these cars. And they tend to irrevocably destroy possible roads forward between the poster and whoever they have beef with.

Good luck. It looks like you got a really killer car!

Zach

Much ado about very little.

And after a little wire brushing (under the driver’s knees) today with my Milwaukee M12:

Looks quite pitted, got to be some section loss

Very typical of rust under the tar.

Better to get the tar off so it doesn’t continue to hold moisture.

Keep going.


Ditch the screwdriver.

Oscillating multi-tool with a scraper will make quick work of it. Dry ice also works well if you have somewhere convenient to get it in bulk.

Thanks for your encouragement Superhawk. The screwdriver’s only a weight to temporarily hold back the leather / vinyl trim while working. Using sharpened paint scrapers for now. After removing the easy stuff, will switch to either locally available dry ice or a version of your suggested vibe tool with scraper blade to attack the tar.
Thanks for your advise

I’ll get there eventually…

I have recently had good luck using Evaporust in these sorts of situations. For example, you can fill that channel and let it sit there and come back with wire brush and scotch brite pads from time to time. This has allowed me to remove all the rust, while removing less total metal. The process above will expose pits that remain full of rust or converted rust . I generally go into the pits with a small ball diamond dremil bit and try to get down to bare metal without making a hole that goes all the way through.

With a brush or spray bottle use this after you get it pretty clean. Let it sit for a good 30 minutes then wipe with water to neutralize. Then once dry quick Scotch brite , wipe, epoxy primer.Click to view attachment

Unfortunately this story is far too common. As Mark said there is no warranty with PPI from any shop. Seems shops are reluctant to call out bad cars as they become the bad guy. A 100 years ago the best shop in town ( in an unnamed city) looked over a car I bought. After I owned it I showed the owner something significant ….. his response “ lm embarrassed “ …..they didn’t connect the proverbial dots. We were and still are friendly today…… s____ happens.
On line purchasing biggest boon to sale of bad cars for all that’s worth.
I have never purchased a car that seller was forthcoming about deficiencies……the problem is when they misrepresent the car.
Good luck with car however and where ever this goes.

Same stuff as Ospho

The critical step is to ensure it’s neutralized after application.

I’m not sure what directions are on the bottle Ben is recommending (local big box stuff). Ospho implies that you can paint over it - this is true for an outdoor metal railing using an oil based paint but has zero applicability to automotive epoxy / urethane finish.

Must be rinsed / neutralized prior to primer and dried thoroughly.