I would argue that to be an outlaw, you cannot appeal to everyone. The car must be different and not follow traditional customization trends. A customized car is not necessarily a outlaw; it's custom or hot rodded or sleeper. I never decided my car was an outlaw, someone else coined it.

If a typical 911 owner likes your car, it most likely is not an outlaw...

This car is on the fence. In a word, it's awesome! but it's borderline outlaw. This car just appeals to the masses, with the exception of the chop top. Feed back has shown that not everyone likes the chopped roof line. Without the chop, it's just a GT clone that is well done.

I'm not to keen on the term outlaw. I'm preferring pirate

[quote name='Mike Bellis' date='Aug 22 2015, 08:30 AM' post='2226977']
I would argue that to be an outlaw, you cannot appeal to everyone. The car must be different and not follow traditional customization trends. A customized car is not necessarily a outlaw; it's custom or hot rodded or sleeper. I never decided my car was an outlaw, someone else coined it.

If a typical 911 owner likes your car, it most likely is not an outlaw...

Outlaw 914s include horrible FG kits and 911 want to be mods. To me, an outlaw is building out your dream and somehow not ending up with a piece of crap.

I remember outlaws starting out of the 356 cult, looking rough like just finishing the Carrera Pan America down Mexico way
Today old Detroit- iron hot rods have their own Rat Rod movement..probably where all of this matte car painting came from
There are a lot of type4 engines powering 356 outlaws today, fewer with 911 power.
On the 914, I'd say : primered, matte paint finish, loud with megaphone pipes, engine-through-body design, de-badging ( other cars won't know what just flew by), subtle body mods and de-chroming.
Here is a beautiful type4 powered 356...considered an outlaw to the 356 purists

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...another of this Outlaw 's interior, sorry for the blurr!
MartyClick to view attachment

Outlaw mirrors outside and inside!

But cool-ish mirrors. Of course, not all non-stock mirrors are outlaw-ish. Some are just dorky!

..........interesting chop-job outlaw as seen on ebay awhile back
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That is not ugly. And I love the mirrors! Color matching non stock = outlaw!

And you did not mention the stock mirrors in non-stock (outlaw?) black! I like!

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It's pretty clear that everyone has a different opinion of what makes an "outlaw," but I think this sums it up pretty well in my opinion. The cars in this thread all look great, but IMHO only a few are "outlaws"

I don't know Mike, I'm not sure I really agree with that. There are details that are polarizing in the extreme. For example, in addition to the chop top that makes the car unsuitable to anyone over about 5'-8" I would argue that the suede dash in that car is butt ugly. In fact most of the interior is not to my liking. Is it an outlaw? Oh yeah, it's an outlaw. If I had the money would I buy it? In a heartbeat.

Mike I think I need to disagree with you. If we look at the 356 community which is where the term outlaw comes from in the porsche community it references cars that differ from stock in an obvious fashion.

But if we look at the cars you can see they are typically race car ish looking with monern tires upgrades suspension and brakes and larger motors.

Most of the 356s out there are almost 100% stock as thats is how the owners like them and they retain their highest value there. However most of the 914s are obviously modified.

I'm not saying the black car isn't awesome! I feel it's more of a hot rod than an outlaw. Everything on this car is top dollar and extremely nice. way too nice. I did post it in the Outlaw Group on FB but I'm on the fence.

Dave, I would buy this car in a heart beat too! And drive the shit out of it.

In many ways it does fit the outlaw theme but the purists also like it. My favorite outlaws are the cars that the purists can't stand. But I think this leans toward full custom hot rod more than outlaw.

The term outlaw is open for interpretation; unless tha car is used in a crime...

There is a lot of speculation about what makes a 914 an outlaw car. Mere body changes I wouldn't think would do it as there are many cars with 916 styling. The car would have to be more than 916 styling. Outlaw could be cars with engine swaps, non Porsche engines. We all seem to like cars with swaps so there is nothing really offensive about that within the group here. Unlike the 365 crowd that seen to think any mod to a 356 is sacrilege.

A 911-6 swap is common and there are many out there. It would have to be more than a straight 6 swap. Something like a blown or turbo'd car with a 6. I think the cars would have to be driven. And not just 100 miles. A proven car driven hard long distance without issue. A reliable car. A real bad ass, iron butt road warrior.

Here's where my head is at. I don't see a real "group of 914 outlaws" Anyone have information to the contrary?

I think there should be an official group formed. A group of guys and cars that have actually driven their outlaw cars long distances. The core group should have to nominate new members and they should have to prove their worth with a long distance run.

Anyone up to the challenge? Who wants to set the rules for what is a "real" outlaw car and what is the common and accepted engine swap body mod/ conversion.

Are we ready for that or should we wait until 914's become unobtainium and it becomes offensive to modify them?

As long as it doesn't turn into the "who spent the most" on the mods kinda deal. I built mine from an abandoned 4 cyl car with weeds growing through it. Built to satisfy me and only me on a limited budget. I personally feel an outlaw car should be considered a vehicle modified from its original configuration to enhance its performance and drivability yet keeping with the "original look" of the car. I agree they should be real drivers not occasional around the block cars. "Just say'n"

Interesting topic and great to see all the differing views.

Weirdly enough I went to along to a PCNSW event yesterday where the concourse judges were explaining and demonstrating what category a car presented at their concours would fall into.

For a bit of fun I showed them my car and it was their opinion that it was without doubt an ‘outlaw’.

My spin is: if it’s heavily modified/personalised in anyway, it’s an outlaw. 4,6,8 or whatever, it doesn’t matter. Also agree the car has to be driven hard on a regular basis and it doesn’t have to be but can be, immaculately presented.

I think it is hard to identify any specific 914s as outlaw, because by their very existence within Porschedom, all 914s are outlaws.

There are very few 914 purists. And they certainly are not a majority to establish bounds of acceptability. It is awfully hard to rebel against conformity when non-conformity is what has drawn people to the car, and kept the car affordable (ish).

I'm pretty new here and to 914's, but I quickly sensed the disdain for my little car from the taildragger crowd. I don't really mind, and I kind of understand their position. I tend to agree that this certainly qualifies the 914 as "outlaw" to the 911 people and I love it. Our group has the freedom to build these as they see fit, (and the more radical they turn out, the better we like it) while still appreciating a beautiful original car for what it is too.

If you have to ask if your car is an outlaw, it is not.

So many beautiful cars have been posted on this thread that ask. And I love them all.

Sorry, but if it looks like a narrow body on the outside, and all the awesomeness isn't screaming in your face, it cannot be an outlaw. It might be my favorite build of all!!! I love sleepers!!!

But an outlaw screams it at first glance. More like catches you at the corner of your eye and gives you whiplash to take another look. It doesn't beg or wonder to ask if it is. There is no question. At first glance, you KNOW.

Let's not smudge the lines here anymore.

Outlaw is badass. It is it's own language. And no pretender can fit in.

I always like my cars to speak of my personal style, probably the reason I sketch then proceed to hands on building. As far as bodywork, engine +trans, I will work with these craftsmen throughout the project. I don't know if my work is outlaw, but just coming from the need for speed and then creating it on my vehicle.
Then there's the first cut into metal, you need to be an outlaw to start cutting on your perfectly good car
Work started on this build in 1988.This pic from 1995, I've already got the firewall shaped for the 935 horizontal fan housing and its accompanying top-right mounted alternator.
The alternator pulley enters the cabin by 1", so a custom cover plate was shaped as well. 930 fuel distributor is mounted to the battery tray. The trunk cutting is for intercooler tubing and the throttle body- to- plenum area.The flat aluminum plate is a bracket for the catch can. Click to view attachment

Looking like a bit of an outlaw here (1989, old shop #2 with hot tin roof !) mocking up for the Spearco intercooler, which I kicked up out of the trunk bodywork into the airflow...thereby eliminating fans, relays, switches. The intercooler pulls a lot of heat out of those 2 charge-pipes. Note the trunk assist hydraulic lifts, taken off of a vw rabbit. Today Carrera gt's, 918's and other mega exotics all strut their stuff popping exhaust pipes, plenums out of the upper bodywork.
Supercar outlaws? Click to view attachment

New Old Stock German gt fenders I bought in the '70s, installed in 1989.
The owner of Coachworks had already built several gt's, but he said that my build with the hole in the trunk was some kind of half-breed, hot rod outlaw 914. His partner called it a fast VW ! He also strengthened the floppy trunk that I had cut open. After it was painted we roped the doors shut, put it on a flatbed and I took it home for assembly.
The car made the cover of European Car in 1995.Click to view attachment

Another fun day in 1996, with the 914 hotrod was showing it at a prestigious Beverly Hills car show. Nothing but 6 figure cars there, and classic Woodys from back in the day. It was accepted well, except for one trophy wife that walked by and I heard her comment to her husband, "You know dear...someone brought the cheapest car here today, that little black one ". So after the judges came by for European Street Modified, I took 3rd against all sorts of Ferraris, MBZ, Maseratis, Jags and 911s.
That's Mattylite on the detailing Click to view attachment

...last one
As far as outlaws go, it does have a wing off of a Hurst Olds, the heart of a 935 (tuned for street 98 oct), an 8 point roll cage, but might just be a shiny hotrod 6
The green car reflection on the door is a Maserati Indy.
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I've found that drivers appreciate the 914, and the checkbook wine elitists don't. That's why when I was in a 993 daily, I'd go to PCA events and tell people I drove a 914. Weeded out the smart people.

Marty your car is friggin' awesome. It needs its own category.

Maybe mine? Injected Buick, Boxter Brakes, 911 suspension, 17"Fuchs, sticky tires, custom gauges and lightweight bodywork

Marty, your car is badass! I think it was 2005 WCR? I had the pleasure of taking in some of the details. I agree with Rand. Outlaw is in your face, catch your eye and keeps your attention. There is no subtleness about it. When you look at it you know.

Seems to me, the term outlaw means:

I did it for me not you
I do not care what you think
My ideas all for me
Fast
Stripped of needless extras

To me, that is an outlaw, something not made to conform to a genre, but to please the builder alone.
I would strongly argue that Magnus and the current 356 outlaws are no longer tuned into that feeling....it's now a culture that seems to have developed yet another set of rules....

To be voted into a group of outlaws seems to be completely against the whole idea of an outlaw....it's a singular car with its sole mission to be pleasing the current owner and builder, nothing more.

Here is a random thought,

The 356's have the "Outlaw" tag, the 911's have the "R Gruppe" tag.
The 914 group needs their own identity, the 914-6's (Original) are their own special group. I was working on this idea last week and trying to create an idea for a logo or crest, we need our own identity.

My first thought was "Rebel" and not having anything to do with any Civil War connotations as the Rebel flag would not be a part of the logo.

I think the Outlaw/R Gruppe/Rebel moniker goes with cars that are modified with great taste keeping with the Porsche (914) Marque, alive in the design and doing special things away from the stock; Flared Fenders, Flat Six Engine, Upgraded Suspensions, Modified Exhausts, Modified Interiors, etc...

I do think the ultimate expression that I have seen so far is the Black Swan with the slight chopped top, not a big fan of chopping tops but that car with the hundreds of hours of custom metalwork just "LOOKS RIGHT", in my opinion. That car to me is the ultimate 914 REBEL.

They say we are not thought as highly as other Porsches and the NARP moniker why not coin the name of Rebel?


Just my .02,

Vysoc

Exactly...

I won 2nd place in the 2005 356 registrry holiday "outlaw" class with my 1953 Porsche 356. As stated the 911's have the R group and in the Austin Healey circle they label the non stock carss as "nasty boys". We should come up with our own term so when we say it people know right away we are reffering to a 914.
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Interesting thread. I consider my own car to be a hot rod, not an outlaw for most of the same reasons described on this thread already.

My car has a 3.2 /6 that is relatively close to stock: still N/A, but with ITBs and EDIS, new pistons and cylinders, Dougherty racing cam, higher comp, Megasquirt, dual plug... so "relatively" is a relative word I suppose.

The body has had a fair amount of original stuff deleted and GT flares added, as well as custom R-style taillights (with added backup lights), suspension and brake upgrades, Real Fuchs ™ 930 wheels 16x7 and 16x9, front GT-style oil cooler, and a bumper painted two different colors (which gets me the most questions, my favorite being: "why haven't you finished painting your bumper?").

We kept the 901 transmission though, stock gearing, but had it rebuilt and a lot of stuff replaced. Rennshift and linkage too.

It's heavily modified, nowhere really near a stock 914 in the sense of the engine at all and some obvious cosmetics, but outlaw? Nah. The 914 is always being modified so much that in my mind it must be something that really irks the purists. Since I'm not a purist by any means, I'm not qualified to say what an "outlaw" 914 is.

+1

Outlaw + "Teener" = Jailbait?

+2 !!

E gruppe

E = einzigartig = unique

Since there seems to be no set rules on what exactly makes a 914 an "outlaw", each one is truly unique.

A nice decal / shield of some sort with something like 'E Gruppe' (just to quote a suggestion), or 'M Gruppe' as in 'Mittelmotor' or 'modded / modified / modifiziert'. That will give it some real look and feel. But please, please, NOT with the use of the old German fonts. I prefer early 70s fonts!

Somewhere halfway down this page a few links with a lot of inspiration! Fonts Porsche posters

Menno

I think this is not necessarily true. I would vote that a diesel engine or a 100hp honda powered car would be outlaw, or maybe "renegade" as its not the norm. And there are PLENTY of cars that I would think would be considered outlaw that have stereo's. And thats completely needless. I mean who needs fenders? Bumpers? Paint? A passenger seat? Glass? "Stripped of needless extras" would be a race car plain and simple.

There is no one definition for an outlaw even in the 356 community. All are just personal opinions. One thing for sure is it pisses off the purists.

My opinion is a car modified to try to be the fastest, baddest car around. Most mods are based on race car stuff & make it barely street legal. Basically a hot rod. Something that at first glance screams "I'm fast" & then can back it up. If it doesn't have the visual then it is a sleeper which is equally cool.

I like M Gruppe, as in the Middle finger gruppe cuz that's what I picture these guys saying to the purists with their cars.

I think the outlaw concept you're looking for is just the sports car equivalent of an American hot rod. Modified for purpose, disregarding anybody's "rules," and making fun of purists.

About a club I have to go with Groucho, and wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member. Of course that's a piss poor attitude, and I know it, but hey, isn't that "outlaw"?

Outlaw ?

I agree. I didn't mean to start a debate. Although it has been an interesting thread. To me the key is - uniqueness. Not necessarily following the trend, but, following the owner's heart. Beyond that, full performance, whatever that means to the owner, would be an important element to me.

outlaw = give concourse weanies annurysms

Oh crap ... We're gonna get a bad rap for moving to Payson?

To me, the term 'Outlaw' denotes a certain look for a Porsche. On 356s and 911s, owners remove the bumper trim (even the entire bumpers on 356s), add deep-dish wheels (some blacked-out), lower the car and possibly 'souping up' the motors.

I consider the BB to be more of a Hot Rod than an Outlaw.

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This is a complicated topic bordering on existential intricacies. Seems to me that an 'outlaw' would be a car that goes against the norm, flouting convention. In the 356 and 911 world, that has meant going against the grain of the purist majority.

In the 914 world, the purists are largely a minority who don't tend to speak out for fear of ridicule. So maybe, in our world, the correct, concurs cars are really the outlaws and their owners are the true noncomformists.

Of course, that is changing as purists from the 911 and 356 camps discover the brilliance of 914s and seek to find those correct and original examples.