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Cairo94507
Hi Everyone -

Some may be aware I recently bought the '95 993 3.6 motor Chris (Tygaboy) had for sale. I must have looked at his ad a 100 times drooley.gif and finally could not resist. Had it not been Chris and pretty local to me I probably would have passed.

The 3.6 has approximately 18K miles on it piratenanner.gif and came out of the 993 in 1997 following an accident. The engine was properly stored with rocker arms loosed and oil poured in the cylinders and turned over regularly. I pulled the plugs and it turned over like a new engine. Squirted some oil in, reinstalled the plugs and have turned it over a few times since it came to my garage patiently awaiting the swap.

Greg T. (master mechanic/technician/body man and painter) pray.gif and a very good friend agreed to tackle this project at his garage. So on Friday (2/16/24), we drove to Greg's (it ran great) and a short 5+ hours later the 3.2 was out. We took our time and the biggest hassle was pulling the wiring harness for the 3.2 out of the car without damaging anything. biggrin.gif

The next day we trailered my Six in Greg's enclosed trailer, pulled by his wife's beautiful Dodge Ram diesel, to the Red Barn! Yes, Chris, (master fabricator if ever there was one) another great guy and good friend @Tygaboy agreed to do some metal fabrication as a part of this swap. After seeing Chris' skills on multiple projects, smilie_pokal.gif I knew if someone was going to be cutting sawzall-smiley.gif and welding welder.gif on my car. I really wanted it to be him. pray.gif

After looking at the current oil cooler setup, idea.gif it was decided to leave my existing GT style oil cooler and add the 2 Spal 6.5" fans and see how that works. My 3.2 stayed cool while driving unless I got in stop 'n go traffic (What? None of that in the Bay Area!) and then the temperature would creep up. We will relocate my oil cooler thermostat from the front trunk (where the factory installed them in the GT cars confused24.gif ) to the engine firewall- where we all agreed it belonged. I have to give Chris credit for this plan as I originally was going to swap in a larger oil cooler and open the nose panel of my car up sawzall-smiley.gif to mate to the new cooler with a nice duct welder.gif . Chris pulled me back from the edge and said he believed cutting the nose panel out may not be necessary once the fans are installed.

Of course that is not all Chris is doing. My car has factory, non-retractible, seat belts and my brother and I prefer retractible belts. So we are installing retractible belts. Chris will do the fabrication; he did this to his LS car and it works flawlessly.

OK, here are some pictures to get this thread rolling; I hope you enjoy following along as this stuff happens.

Again, a sincere thanks tiphat2.gif to Greg T, Chris B., my brother Bob, HB (2 914 owner and good friend), for their support and encouragement. And thanks to anyone who has done a 3.6 swap into a 914 and posted about it so we have a road map. I will document our project to hopefully make it easier for others to do the same.

Cheers- Michael beerchug.gif

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ndfrigi
Congratulations Michael!
Hoping that solid 3.2 will be going to a good car also!
SirAndy
You'll love the difference!

On the cooling, just remember that unlike the 3.2L, the 3.6L does not have an engine mounted cooler.

Whatever you're running for a cooler up front has to do 100% of the oil cooling.
popcorn[1].gif
tygaboy
The Red Barn isn't sure what's going on. It's never seen a 914 that wasn't ratty or horribly rusted or getting modified in some strange way. I can almost hear it saying "You're telling me THAT'S what a 914 is supposed to look like?" lol-2.gif

@Cairo94507 Michael - I'll post pics as I make progress so you'll have full documentation of everything. I'm honored you trust me with your car but I have to say, it's nerve-wracking to have something this nice in the shop...
Cairo94507
Thanks Chris- The honor is all mine; I totally trust you with my car. beerchug.gif
technicalninja
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Feb 18 2024, 11:28 AM) *

You'll love the difference!

On the cooling, just remember that unlike the 3.2L, the 3.6L does not have an engine mounted cooler.

Whatever you're running for a cooler up front has to do 100% of the oil cooling.
popcorn[1].gif


I'm a HUGE believer in staged/in-series coolers.

If the 3.2 was having trouble in traffic the 3.6 (with fewer coolers) will be worse!

Before I chopped up the body and fitted a larger front cooler I'd try something like Chris Foleys new 4-cylinder rear mounted cooler as the primary followed by the existing front cooler. I'd most likely run the rear cooler direct and the front cooler after the thermostat.

Food for thought...

The whole kit is un-necessary in a 6. The rear mount and the "Setrab" cooler is what I'd be after. Setrabs by themselves are not expensive; I'd get the largest one that will fit.

https://setrabusa.com/collections/engine-oi...er.v.price.lte=

https://tangerineracing.com/shop/ols/produc...oil-cooler-kits
Cairo94507
Thanks technicalninja; I know you know your stuff and I appreciate your thoughts.

To be fair, my front end was a stock front bumper (no GT modification) with a GT modified valance. For air flow, I had the 5 round rubber plugs in the nose panel removed.

I realized I was having rising temps in sitting traffic during the summer so I had a front bumper "GT modified" to match the valance, essentially doubling the air inlet opening and have had very good results like that. However, since I am going to the 3.6 with no engine mounted cooler, I will start with adding the 2 Spal 6.5" fans with a programable thermostat and see how that works. If that doesn't get it done, I will then open the nose up, essentially connecting the round body plugs and see what that does. If that does not provide a solution, I will replace my current oil cooler with a larger one that I have.

Cheers,

Michael beerchug.gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 18 2024, 11:55 AM) *
I realized I was having rising temps in sitting traffic during the summer so I had a front bumper GT modified to match the valance, essentially doubling the air inlet opening and have had very good results like that. However, since I am going to the 3.6 with no engine mounted cooler, I will start with adding the 2 Spal 6.5" fans with a programable thermostat and see how that works. If that doesn't get it done, I will then open the nose up, essentially connecting the round body plugs and see what that does. If that does not provide a solution, I will replace my current oil cooler with a larger one that I have.

How are you currently exhausting the air?
idea.gif

I'm guessing you don't really want to cut into this car.
Before i cut the hood and added the shroud i simply removed the two large plugs in the trunk floor. While that did somewhat work, you could see the hood lifting at higher speeds and the front end felt very unstable above 80.
Adding a shroud would help with that but the surface area of those holes probably won't be enough to keep your motor cool. Plus, you'll be dumping all that hot air under the car, which is the last place where you would want that.

Anyways, after all the things i have tried, out the top is still by far the best option in terms of air flow and down-force but i understand that the look is not for everyone.
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mepstein
Michael has a louvered pan. I’m still waiting on mine - lol.
rick 918-S
aktion035.gif popcorn[1].gif
Cairo94507
Hi Andy - I have an aluminum shroud that seals the oil cooler and once I add the 2 fans, the fans so air will exhaust out the louvered panel in the trunk floor. That should provide sufficient air flow. If not, Plan B goes into effect.

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Dion
Best of luck Michael. It’ll be superb.
Cairo94507
Fingers crossed! beerchug.gif
East coaster
My 3.6 used to run very cool with my fronted cooler. I had a couple fans installed but never needed them even on 95+ degree days stuck in traffic. I turned them on once when stuck in traffic and it brought the needle down a bit, but it wasn’t necessary.

That said, I did have the area where the holes are joined so it was one oblong opening to feed the cooler.
tygaboy
QUOTE(East coaster @ Feb 18 2024, 02:00 PM) *

My 3.6 used to run very cool with my fronted cooler. I had a couple fans installed but never needed them even on 95+ degree days stuck in traffic. I turned them on once when stuck in traffic and it brought the needle down a bit, but it wasn’t necessary.

That said, I did have the area where the holes are joined so it was one oblong opening to feed the cooler.

@East coaster - If adding the fans doesn't cool things appropriately, cutting open between the holes is exactly what we agreed we'd do as the next step in the plan. Thanks and please keep the experiences coming!
Craigers17
What are the odds this car leaves the Red Barn with a V-8 in it? poke.gif
Freezin 914
aktion035.gif popcorn[1].gif
KELTY360
QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 18 2024, 03:41 PM) *

What are the odds this car leaves the Red Barn with a V-8 in it? poke.gif


A flat eight would be more appropriate.
technicalninja
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 18 2024, 02:57 PM) *

Hi Andy - I have an aluminum shroud that seals the oil cooler and once I add the 2 fans, the fans so air will exhaust out the louvered panel in the trunk floor. That should provide sufficient air flow. If not, Plan B goes into effect.

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Took my breath away!

That's just freaking gorgeous!

I'm so envious...

Put a temporary manometer in the duct (precise pressure gauge) and actually measure pressure BEFORE you cut out those beautiful louvers!
Opening front OK in my book.
Adding fans, just brain dead, automatically do it on anything that is used as a streetcar.
Changing the way that front trunk looks would be the very LAST mod I'd do...

Chris, I have 100k+ classics commonly here for AC work.
Not a one of them matches that car...
I'd be nervous around that!
I'd NOT ALLOW "randoms" within ten feet of that.

The Cobra 427 replica on my business website drew in people like nothing else I've ever encountered when it visited. it had a 50K paint job and everyone just had to "touch it". I couldn't park it outside. I had to threaten an "industrial" salesman once!

I just had to fix that Cobra.
You've got to CUT that car, maybe...
Still, it's SOOO much better to be doing that, on that nice a car, than fixing appliance vehicles like me.

Envious of you both!

nivekdodge
QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 18 2024, 06:41 PM) *

What are the odds this car leaves the Red Barn with a V-8 in it? poke.gif



Just one?

Kevin
technicalninja
Quick question.

The engine in the first post is the engine you removed, correct?

If so, you ARE NOT driving hard enough as the flywheel doesn't appear to have even reached the "bedded" stage.

Looks "fresh" in the pics.
ninja.gif
rick 918-S
Better get some flares and big rubber on that rocket.
Cairo94507
@Craigers17 Thank God I was still waiting for my coffee this morning when I read your comment as I laughed out loud. That is some funny stuff right there. beerchug.gif
rick 918-S
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 19 2024, 07:53 AM) *

@Craigers17 Thank God I was still waiting for my coffee this morning when I read your comment as I laughed out loud. That is some funny stuff right there. beerchug.gif


Funny how things seem to snowball when it comes to car mania. blink.gif biggrin.gif
Long_ago
Giddy Up
burton73
Hi Michael, welcome.png

I sent you a PM

Best Bob B

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Craigers17
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 19 2024, 08:53 AM) *

@Craigers17 Thank God I was still waiting for my coffee this morning when I read your comment as I laughed out loud. That is some funny stuff right there. beerchug.gif


beerchug.gif In all seriousness, I’ve only owned 4 cylinder 914’s, and while they are a blast to drive, I wouldn’t describe them as fast. I can’t imagine how fast your car is gonna be with that new engine in there. Awesome build!
tygaboy
Let's get the party started! Michael has agreed it'd be OK for me to video this effort and post it on my At The Red Barn YouTube channel. I hope to have the first episode done by this weekend. In the meantime:

As an early car, it has no accommodation in the upper, outer corner of the fire wall for the seat belt retractors. Michael asked that I cut/replace that area with pieces from a later car. After looking at what that would require (remove rear window, drill spot welds, send sparks flying) and how close the needed welding is to the already completed (and insanely beautiful!) paint work and sail panel vinyl, I told Michael it wasn't a risk I'd be willing to take, above my pay-grade, etc.

That led to a discussion of options and, given he'll likely never sell the car, and that it's already been modified in a number of other ways to make it just the way he wants it, he approved mounting the retractors at the base of the fire wall, same-ish way I did it in my LS car.
So, here're the doubler plates I'll be welding to the already stiffened lower fire wall, complete with proper 7/16 -20 hardware in place and plug weld holes ready to go.

Next step is to SAND SOME OF THE PERFECT PAINT OFF PART OF THIS CAR blink.gif and get to welding. huh.gif
East coaster
Don’t oops and do that center plug weld smile.gif
Cairo94507
Yesterday we crated the 3.2 for travel to its new home in a 914 in Wisconsin.

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mb911
Very interesting close to me?
tygaboy
"It's only metal..."
Whomever made up that saying must not have had to drill holes in a car this nice! laugh.gif
With the chassis stiffener in there, it took a bit more than expected, but the clearance hole, she is done.
Then a quick test fit of the backer to mark where to remove paint (!) so I can do the plug welding.
Note that I did narrow up the backer so it'd be easier to get to the fastener that uses that hole to the left. I think it's part of what secures the back pad.
tygaboy
Question for anyone who's fitted retractable seat belts to an early car:
I noticed the passenger side seat belt receiver mount sits further rearward than the driver side. Note the hole in the vinyl where the later year cars bolt hole would be.

Does that mounting point need to be moved forward to match the driver side?

No, I haven't even tried mounting a late receiver - I figured I may as well ask first, just to see what info others may have. Thanks in advance.
rick 918-S
QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 20 2024, 11:01 AM) *

Very interesting close to me?


Wish it was coming to me... dry.gif
Cairo94507
@tygaboy Chris, Taking a shot... and speaking with Greg T., my '71 came with a fixed passenger seat. It has now got the later movable seat. I would say the receiver (female) for the buckle needs to be in that forward hole (where the hole is in the vinyl). They should be directly in line with each other, driver and passenger receiver. beerchug.gif
worn
QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Feb 20 2024, 05:44 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 20 2024, 11:01 AM) *

Very interesting close to me?


Wish it was coming to me... dry.gif

et moi
Freezin 914
QUOTE(worn @ Feb 21 2024, 12:00 AM) *

QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Feb 20 2024, 05:44 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 20 2024, 11:01 AM) *

Very interesting close to me?


Wish it was coming to me... dry.gif

et moi



This rules all of us out…….. idea.gif
mb911
I know the new owner he is friend of mine. Exciting to see it go into his car.
mepstein
QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 21 2024, 05:02 PM) *

I know the new owner he is friend of mine. Exciting to see it go into his car.

He’s getting a good engine. I’ve known the builder for years.
SirAndy
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Feb 20 2024, 05:57 PM) *

@tygaboy Chris, Taking a shot... and speaking with Greg T., my '71 came with a fixed passenger seat. It has now got the later movable seat. I would say the receiver (female) for the buckle needs to be in that forward hole (where the hole is in the vinyl). They should be directly in line with each other, driver and passenger receiver. beerchug.gif

I vaguely remember that there were different lengths of receivers.

I wonder if a longer one would be all you need instead of moving the mounting point forward.
idea.gif
Cairo94507
I will be at Chris' on Saturday and we plan to sort this then. We have a few options as Seatbelt Planet offers a variety of receivers. Thanks for the thought Andy. beerchug.gif
raynekat
I've seen some replace the extra onboard oil filter on the 3.6's with a factory cooler instead. Goes in the same place as the oil cooler on the earlier engines. I always thought "why 2 oil filters?"

Another option for additional cooling if you need it.
ClayPerrine
QUOTE(raynekat @ Feb 23 2024, 12:43 AM) *

I've seen some replace the extra onboard oil filter on the 3.6's with a factory cooler instead. Goes in the same place as the oil cooler on the earlier engines. I always thought "why 2 oil filters?"

Another option for additional cooling if you need it.



I considered this a while back. There are directions on Pelican:

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...here-s-how.html

It wouldn't work for me. The cooler interfered with the adapter plate for the Cayman 6 speed gearbox.

Cairo94507
Thanks guys; that will be another option if Plan A is not sufficient. beerchug.gif
Luke M
QUOTE(raynekat @ Feb 22 2024, 11:43 PM) *

I've seen some replace the extra onboard oil filter on the 3.6's with a factory cooler instead. Goes in the same place as the oil cooler on the earlier engines. I always thought "why 2 oil filters?"

Another option for additional cooling if you need it.



"why 2 oil filters?".... From what I recall it has to do with the Hydraulic valve lifters.
mepstein
QUOTE(Luke M @ Feb 23 2024, 09:02 AM) *

QUOTE(raynekat @ Feb 22 2024, 11:43 PM) *

I've seen some replace the extra onboard oil filter on the 3.6's with a factory cooler instead. Goes in the same place as the oil cooler on the earlier engines. I always thought "why 2 oil filters?"

Another option for additional cooling if you need it.



"why 2 oil filters?".... From what I recall it has to do with the Hydraulic valve lifters.

I’ve been told the filter on the engine is in the perfect spot for filtering the oil. The filter at the oil tank is less than ideal.
Root_Werks
This is such a neat engine swap. There are more and more 3.6's finding ways into 914's which I think is very cool.
Cairo94507
Today my brother and I took a ride to The Red Barn to see Chris and go over seatbelt and oil cooler stuff. I am glad to say we have a solid plan and I was able to sit in my car with the retractible seatbelt in place and it will work just as planned thanks to Chris' superb skills and abilities.

We also pulled the front bumper off and removed my aluminum oil cooler shroud to check on the actual real estate for the cooler/fan set-up. We decided to scrap the 2 Spal 6.5" fans and go with the larger Setrab oil cooler with 3 5.25" fans mounted on the backside of the cooler and then Chris will fabricate a new shroud, very similar to the one that was on the car. The new cooler is taller by a little over 1" and wider by about 3" and slightly thicker too. We believe that is going to handle the needs of the 3.6 just fine.

So I have some parts to return and new parts to order. beerchug.gif

This is the current oil cooler which is coming out for a slightly larger one:

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So we decided these 2 Spal 6.5" fans would not work the way we want and I will return them and get 3 5.25" fans to mount right behind the new larger oil cooler. I mistakenly ordered a 1 pass cooler and I need a 2-pass so my oil lines will remain on the drivers side of the car. We will relocate the thermostat to the engine firewall- where it really belongs.
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SirAndy
Lets compare sizes, shall we? biggrin.gif

Images pulled from this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...st&p=893543


IPB Image

IPB Image

Cairo94507
Thanks for the pictures Andy. The oil cooler we are going to install appears to be a bit wider than that but otherwise looks about the same thickness and height. But the one currently in my car is smaller and why we are replacing it for the 3.6. beerchug.gif
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