A car with a roll bar is indeed dangerous.
Several times I have cut myself on one of the zip-ties used to hold the roll bar padding in place.

Very well said Clay. In my opinion you nailed it.

Dan

Hey guys, you know we are kinda walking all over the OP Tom’s 914-6 GT Tribute Project thread here…(me included now)
Good lively discussion, but he may need some space for some project pictures:)

Time for an update on my GT project. After a long delay while waiting to clear garage space, I sold my 1970 911E restoration and moved the 914 from the basement to the garage and onto my lift. The car is now stripped to a bare shell. After consulting with Ken (body shop manager & co-owner) at Auto Associates, we have decided to send the shell out to be dipped, stripped and E-coated prior to starting the chassis restoration at Auto Associates.

Ken recommended a shop in Livonia, MI that does a multi step process consisting of:

1. Hot tank cleaning dip
2. Pressure wash to remove all dirt, gunk and paint
3. Acid dip to dissolve all rust
4. Neutralizing dip to stop the acid process
5. Epoxy primer for rust protection

The hot tank cleaning dip will dissolve anything that is not steel on the shell. This would include the longitudinal heater tubes. So we have decided to cut out the inner longs prior to the dipping and then replace the heater tubes and the longs as part of the chassis restoration. This should give us a chassis that is completely devoid of any rust and is also protected against any further rusting.

This will require an 11 hour one way drive from my home in CT to the shop in MI. I have searched and tried to locate a shop closer to my home that offers the cleaning, de-rusting and E-coating but have not located one. If anyone knows of a shop within a 6 hour radius of Hartford, CT that offers this process, I would be interested in checking them out.

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As long as that trip will be, it will be well worth it once you begin chassis work, metal work, etc.

There’s a chemical strip shop west of Harrisburg PA. 3S chemicals llc. They quoted me ~ 3k for my 912. 3-6 month wait and 1k deposit. I ended up shipping the car to - pro strip Indy in Indianapolis IA. They had a good rep from people I know and I was very happy with their service. They charged $2300 and took 2 weeks once they received it. The other reason I sent it there is because there is a company near by that e-coats the chassis in a tank. Both companies have been great to deal with and only take money when the job is done.

If you chemically strip a chassis in a tank, I believe you need to e-coat it in a tank. The chemical strip removes everything including every bit of metal protection in between the seams and in all the hollow chambers. There’s no way to coat the metal between the seams unless you dip it. Normal paint is too thick. Cavity wax will coat the cavities but only a thin liquid like they use for e-coat will actually get between all the seams. At least this is what I have read, researched, experienced first hand on other cars and have decided is the right process. I also believe the past problems with chemical dip “leaking out of the seams” month later is not actually chemical leaking but moisture attacking the bare metal and rusting it. Chemically stripped metal starts rusting immediately, even neutralized, because it’s bare metal. The only way to protect it is to dip it again to get to all the metal that is raw.

So to get back to my car, the 912 is at the Ecoat place and should be done by the end of the week. It’s a 12 step process to clean the metal of all the flash rust and then e-coat. The chem dip exposed some additional corrosion but we’ll fix it when it gets home. The e-coat process is ~$3,500 and it was $900 each way to ship and $500 to ship between shops. Not cheap at all but I want a solid car that I can trust not to have issues down the road. I wouldn’t have minded trailering it out but having to make a second trip to pick up means I really wouldn’t have saved any money when all was done. Plus that’s a lot of time to make two up and back trips.

The thing that was in my favor on the early 912 is it has steel heater tubes. After 67/68, Porsche moved to the paper tubes.

Pics so far

Tom, Like most people here, I can’t wait until next update, keep them coming

[quote name='ClayPerrine' date='Apr 15 2022, 09:23 AM' post='2995420']
[quote name='brant' date='Apr 15 2022, 07:43 AM' post='2995390']
[/quote]

Why ride a motorcycle? Or a bicycle on a public road? This kind of talk is silly.
[/quote]


Nope
A brain injury is not silly
On a motorcycle you should also wear a helmet
Just like a car with a roll cage

Not silly
Actually smart
[/quote]


You are less likely to be hurt in an accident when not wearing a seat belt than you are getting into an accident on a motorcycle while not wearing a helmet, but we still have mandatory seat belt laws for cars. And you are way less likely to be hurt at an Autocross than you are when riding a motorcycle on the street. But we still wear helmets when running in an Autocross.

Personally I think the people who get on a motorcycle in shorts, a wife beater t-shirt, flip flops, and sunglasses are stupid. And we as the general public have to support their long term medical care when they get squished by an 18 wheeler on the highway and somehow manage to live through it.

My $.02.... To ride a motorcycle without a helmet should require you to sign a waiver stating that you agree that you or your family will pay all medical costs resulting from injuries that could have been prevented by wearing a helmet.


Sorry.. this is one of my pet peeves. In Texas it is perfectly legal to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but if you don't put your seat belt on in a car, you get a ticket. That is hypocrisy of the stupidest level. I am a seatbelt fanatic. They save lives. And when I did ride a motorcycle on the street, I wore a helmet. But I think they should either repeal the seatbelt law or re-instate the mandatory helmet law.

I will get off my soap box now.

Clay
[/quote]

yep
my business partner has been riding motorcycles for 40 years.
high powered high end italian bikes.
never gets on without full leathers, boots and full face.
he has hit the deck several times. and has always gotten up intact!

whenever i ride around in the car with him he is always commenting on the delicate asian university students getting about on motor scooters around here, in sandles, t shirts and non full face helmets. his standard remark, she might look pretty now, but she isn't going to be attractive with only half a jaw.

i can still remember my time in chicago. guys on big harleys and gold wings would thunder past with no helmet and wearing a t shirt. on the interstate.
used to blow my mind. not in a good way.

seat belts are not even debated in australia. its been mandatory to have them and to have them on since the 1960s. no big deal. but each to his own i guess. i am surprised to hear its law in texas as i can still recall all the hoo haa in the USA in the late 80s over compulsory seat belt laws. as far as i can remember you guys did not have those laws back then. i remember the cars with those wacko auto seat belts that ran on tracks around the heads of the doors. i laughed every time i got in a car with those things.


you need to pad cages inside a car. even on the track. at least down here. no such thing as an unpadded roll cage in this neck of the woods. street or track.

@mepstein - Mark, I love that you are preparing that chassis to last forever. The end result will be a stunning example that will age perfectly. A bit of cash up front, but well worth all the effort and expense in my opinion. Cheers, Michael

It wouldn’t be happening if Jared Mcginness hadn’t taken over the metalwork. It needed a lot and Jared dove in and made it a solid car again. It will need some touch ups now that the chemicals uncovered some more corrosion but all expected and will be delt with.

A pretty good f-up on my part was having Jared do the lead work (there’s a good amount on these old cars) before the chemical dip. Now I know the dip removes lead. I just did it that way to give Jared more practice- LOL!
There’s a fair amount of lead on these cars that can’t be replaced with body plastic. We tried it at the old shop and it just cracked. Jared stepped up and learned how to fill with lead

Hey Mark

Thanks for the info on your choices for chemical stripping and E-coating. The shop I am considering in MI quoted me $3600 for hot tank dip/pressure wash/acid dip/neutralizing dip/e-coat dip. They do it all in house. Seems like the best choice for me especially when they are recommended by the shop that will be doing my chassis and paint work. 11 hours will be a long drive to make four times but I think it will be cheaper than shipping.

Just got done e-coat

M
Outstanding
Tom

That is really cool Mark.

That's beautiful Mark. Absolutely the right way to go.
Structural work and repair has to be done before ?
How is bodywork done from this point forward without damaging the e-coat ?
The body looks like the current OEM replacement panels for 356s and 911s. Brand new.

The e-coat is really just primer that’s thin enough to flow into the seams (helped along by an electrostatic charge, like wet powder coat) and spots that a normal sprayed on primer wouldn’t get to. The very best way to handle chemical dip and e-coat is to dip, do metalwork dip again and then e-coat. But that’s two trips to the chem dip and an extra $5k. I have some touch ups to do. There was at least one spot on a door with holes where someone used a slide hammer. I also need to have some spots leaded in like the original. I actually had the lead done but unknown to me, it dissolves in the Chen dip. Learned a lesson on that. So I did not really care that the surface coating will get damaged. It’s doing its job below the surface. The chassis will probably sit for a while while I finish d a painter and save up to pay for it.

Mind sharing the business that did the E-coat?

I used pro strip Indy for the chemical dip and they referred me to a business that they worked with and the Porsche shop where I used to work has used. I don’t know the name of the business, I just talk to the owner. If you want his name, pm me. Both shops do the job and then take payment. Some of the shops that I felt uneasy about wanted half up front and had waits up to 6+ months. These guys each took a week or two. It’s not cheap. Plan on spending around 8k by the time you pay to ship the car around. This chassis was pretty corroded inside and out and I felt this was the only way to have a solid, corrosion free chassis going forward.

For 8 k that’s a great deal. I wish I had a chassis I could send out for that process. Well maybe I do. Hmm I have a 74 that could use this setup.

It would be a lot less for someone in the mid west who can drop off and pick up. Closer to 6k. It just didn’t make sense for me to do the drive, stay over and drive home - 2X. That’s four 10 hour days of driving to save a couple hundred dollars.

What happened to the guy building a GT tribute 914?
I got to “I’m dipping it”
I’m at that decision, so please update the choice, Heater tube solution…and how things are going with the 914 please.

Rich

The shell has been stripped and mounted on a custom cart for transport. The car will go next to Auto Associates where the inner longs will be removed along with the Al heater tubes. In addition, they will install longitudinal braces. Then the shell will be shipped to International Paint Stripping in Romulus, MI. They are the closest shop that does the Hot Tank/Acid/E-Coat Dipping all under one roof. Once the dipping has been completed the car will go back to Auto Associates for the chassis restoration and GT conversion.

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[quote name='Tom1394racing' post='3038974' date='Nov 1 2022, 01:14 PM']
Time for an update on my GT project. After a long delay while waiting to clear garage space, I sold my 1970 911E restoration and moved the 914 from the basement to the garage and onto my lift. The car is now stripped to a bare shell. After consulting with Ken (body shop manager & co-owner) at Auto Associates, we have decided to send the shell out to be dipped, stripped and E-coated prior to starting the chassis restoration at Auto Associates.

Ken recommended a shop in Livonia, MI that does a multi step process consisting of:

1. Hot tank cleaning dip
2. Pressure wash to remove all dirt, gunk and paint
3. Acid dip to dissolve all rust
4. Neutralizing dip to stop the acid process
5. Epoxy primer for rust protection

Be sure to let us know how it goes. I am very interested in the process.
Good luck.

Since my last posting, the external longs were opened up and the heater tubes removed. Stiffening diagonals were also installed and the car was shipped to Livonia, MI for the triple dip process.

Inner longs don't look too bad and the heater tubes should be reusable.

It's too bad I can't get service like that around Vancouver BC. I was quoted $17,000 for the strip job alone. There doesn't even seem to be any shops left doing chassis sized media blasting here either. Getting a chassis across the US boarder is a whole-nother issue too and don't need to get black listed as I have a lot of work states side.

I'm doing the next best, I figure. I'm going to muriatic acid treat it at home. Setting up sprayers and wands to get into those tough spots between panel and through the longs. After that's done I'll bust out my water blaster system to strip the exterior panels to uncover any other creative body work that might be lurking. Still need to figure out a spray system to get epoxy primer back into those places once done.

Tom,
Reaching out if you need someone to do a looksee here in Michigan.
Born & raised in Romulus/Livonia & know about the shop.
Just wondering, so PM me if interested.
Tom 914er Michigan

Have to wait and see what it looks like after the dip. Sometimes it's just light corrosion, sometimes it's swiss cheese.

JR, not sure what you are hoping to accomplish spraying muriatic acid (HCl) on your car. It will not strip paint or any other typical automotive coating. It could remove rust but it will most likely cause more damage than it will prevent or remove. It is also a very corrosive material to healthy steel not to mention living tissue.

Actually the whole term " acid stripping" is a bad misnomer. Immersion paint striping is actually done in alkaline solutions, not acidic ones.

Most rust removers are based on phosphoric acid. It is much less aggressive on clean steel (and human tissue), has some preference for attack on iron oxide and leaves a phosphate coating on clean steel that provides some flash rust protection and enhances paint adhesion. It does not remove coatings including oils and greases.

Not a chemist (maybe you are) but have a lot of real world experience using organic acids and metals and.... I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

You might want to look into a product called "Rust 911". I used it on my project. I hung a cheap tarp under the car and fed a submersible pump in a plastic tote to pump the fluid in varius spots on my tub.
It worked pretty good, but it is time consuming. see post #44 on my link
My Webpage

rust 911 appears to be a chemically engineered phosphoric based product.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but the the hope would be to eliminate and neutralize corrosion in areas that I don't want to cut open. The idea would not be to leave it on the metal though, it's a whole process. I've restored many Triumphs before, if you want to go down the rust rabbit hole. heh

All kidding aside the muriatic acid should do nicely and if properly post treated and sealed will be as close to new as I can get.

Thanks for the feedback!

The chassis has now completed the dipping/E-coat process. One of our fellow 914 World members was kind enough to drop by the shop in MI to snap a few pics. It will be shipped back to me in the next week or so. So far I am pleased with the overall process. More to come once I get it back home. Anyone who would like details on the shop, please PM me.

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I just talked to Neil the other day. Our cars might come home together.

Yes Mark...I spoke to Neil this afternoon.

We had to take your car off the truck to get to mine. So it’s touched ground in Landenberg PA for a moment. Then back on the truck.

Had to pull mine up my hill to get it into the garage.

Mine is back home as well. I am pretty happy with the overall process. Car looks really clean but now all the nasty sins have been exposed.Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Here are some examples of the nasty hidden sins that will be corrected by Auto Associates

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After the extensive rust repair, the GT conversion punch list for Auto Associates looks like this:

1. Longitudinal stiffening -inner-longitudinal-stiffening-kit

2. Front sway bar reinforcement

3. Chassis stiffening - GT-chassis-stiffening-kit

4. 914-6 bulkhead motor mount

5. Rear suspension pivot point reinforcement

6. Front cooler ducting & cooler mount brackets

7. GT style roll bar with sill diagonals

8. Bulkhead access panel

9. Steel GT flares

10. Fiberglass/Balsa reinforced F&R lids

11. Through holes for oil tank & oil cooler lines

12. Modify front lid and gas tank for through lid gas fill

13. Firewall seatbelt anchors

14. Oil catch tank holding bracket in rear trunk

The dip and e-coat make the good metal look really clean and the bad metal look terrible. I’m sure it will all look great when you are done. At least you didn’t not have to worry about flash rust while waiting on paint.
We replaced a lot of body panels on my car but there are still some touch ups before paint.

Update - The car was delivered to Auto Associates last week along with the chassis stiffening kits and bulkhead motor mount from Mad Dog. First up will be rust repair. This will be followed the GT chassis stiffening and GT mods with the exception of body panels and flares. The plan is for the car to come back to me for mechanical and electrical reassembly before installation of the doors and flares and final paint. Ken (co-owner and Body Shop Manager) would prefer to have wheels and tires mounted to properly install the flares. He also prefers to have the chassis weighted with gearbox and engine to set the door gaps.

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The rust repair has started with removal of the rusted firewall, 4 cyl engine mounts and the improper repairs to the hell hole area. Luckily, Ken was able to source a NOS replacement firewall panel.

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Oh, this is going to be fun to watch.

So the plan for the car is as follows:

Engine
3.2 Short Stroke based on a '78 SC long block
10.5 CR, 98 mm Mahle Motorsport P&C set
JB Racing twin plug dizzy
DC 60 cams
PMO 46 Carbs
Ben Mcfarland heat exchangers and oil tank
Mocal front cooler with Patrick Motorsports front cooling duct

Gearbox & Clutch
Rebuilt stock 914 side shift with Aluminum intermediate plate
Kennedy Engineering 915/901 clutch conversion kit

Front Suspension
Late model 911 Bilstein struts
911 front a-arms
19 mm Sway Away torsion bars
Bilstein HD shocks
Stock 16 mm front sway bar
Elephant Racing rubber bushings
914 Steel front crossmember
Early 911S front calipers
911 vented discs

Rear Suspension
Ground Control adjustable rear coil overs
150 lb Eibach springs
Bilstein HD shocks
Elephant Racing rubber bushings
Stock 914 calipers
911 non-vented discs
Sway Away custom axles with 108 mm 911 CV's, hubs and stub shafts

Wheels & Tires
Front - Minilite 7X15 with Michelin TB 15 18/60R15 tires
Rear - Minilite 8X15 with Michelin TB15 23/62HR15 tires

Cockpit
911 steering column with 911 switches
911 ignition switch
Custom 3-way oil temp/press/fuel level gauge
380 mm hockey puck steering wheel
GTS Classic Lemans seats

Color
I have been wrestling with different color options. I had settled on Lizard Green (2019 GT3 color). Then this week I saw a new Speed Yellow Cayman GT4. So for now the color will be Speed yellow.

Looks like a great combo.
Maybe think about M calipers on back with 911 e-brakes and tangerine conversion kit. Not very pricey, especially with your parts supply and would compliment the front brakes.

Or get 914-6 calipers, keep the 914 e brake and get the larger caliper pistons 38 mm, same as m calipers.

Great suggestions on rear brakes. I am not familiar with the Tangerine kit. I would imagine 914-6 calipers would be tough to find.

Since my trailing arms have already been powder coated, my 914-4 calipers are finishing up restoration at PMB and I already have the 911 non-vented rotors that have been turned by 3 mm, I am inclined to keep that setup. Since the car will be primary street driven, other than the visual and cool factor, how much downside is there to the stock 914-4 calipers?

Wow- that 3.2 combo is going to produce a very nice engine that should pull strong to 7K easily.

Looks to be a formidable machine. Best of luck. Will be following.