Been testing my car at Sebring. Zotz's racing maintains and crews it. Hope you have deep pockets. Just replaced my fuel cell, it was $2500 plus labor to install.

I have done all the work myself because I enjoy it.

It does help keep the cost down. I probably have 1000 hours over 5 years into this effort.

The parts can be expensive...

Post a thread about your car and your experiences with it.

Looks very cool.

Zotz does some high end work.

John

I like this one best.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77oRaG_PoSg


and, yes, thats how bad the visibility really is. In HD it would still be very blurry.
I don't think wipers on high would be much better. The real enemy is fog on the inside.

Great video Chris! Too bad someone spun in front of you at the start and held you up.

Did you have any kind of defrost system at the time?

Thanks for all your help with this project!

John

Rain could be worse. Interior fog is another story. Reminds me of my friend Victor a few years back. Show Room Stock Champion SSB won because he was the only car in the field that had working air conditioning in a Peugeot 505 while it was raining cats and dogs out. Everyone else was slowing because no one see out the windshield.

Great story Jeff.

Would it be worth running a couple bilge blowers for defrost like George did?

Are you blowing front trunk air or cockpit air George?

I was playing with laying out the fuel system last night, lots of components in a dual fuel pump system. More alternatives to look at.

John

Only a small terry cloth towel, if I remembered to put it in the car.
Otherwise just the back of my gloved hand.

If I recall correctly, I stopped using Rain-X when I got the Lexan windshield.
It naturally sheds water better than glass.
I think they recommend dish soap on the inside for anti-fog.

John,
I never tested my bilge blower defrost out in pouring rain, but I have turned it on to test it in the driveway on a rainy morning and when it was really foggy out. Seemed to work great.
The idea behind it is to pull ambient air from the trunk or even outside the car into the cabin and onto the back of the windshield. If you can effectively eliminate the temperature gradient between the front and backside of the glass, in theory the windshield shouldn't ever fog up. Kind of like when a bottle of Coke sits out long enough, eventually it stops sweating. Of course, in a front engine car, the problem is much harder to control, so in a way, we have it much easier.

Rerouted oil lines the way the original builders did it. I will firesleave it to keep heat away from the driver somewhat. This is much better than what I had before. I will close up the holes I made and leave a service panel in case the oil lines need messing with. That -12 AN line is not very flexible and a real pain in the ass to work with. If the fittings are not perfectly aligned then they won't screw on.

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Then through the bulkheads to the front trunk. The line does not touch the fitting.

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Laying out all the parts for the dual pump fuel system. I need to find a home for all these in the front trunk area.

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Start playing with various locations. Using aquarium line for the mock up. This does not look promising.

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Keep playing with it.

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A much better approach that does not mount any components on the fuel cell or its straps.

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Rotate the pumps to put them behind the cross bar. I think this is very close for these parts!

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I will weld some serious tabs to the cross bar to mount the fuel pumps. They are Holley red pumps and weigh 3 pounds each. Still need to figure out a couple more fuel components. I need to make sure all parts can be serviced or replaced and that the braided lines are not rubbing on anything, etc. The plastic zip ties are just for mock up.

This took about 4 hours to figure out but was very satisfying when it came together.

John

Trying to decide if a 1 quart oil breather tank is enough. I like this one and it will fit next to the oil tank:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-85467/overview/

A larger tank that could fit under the cowl is this one which is 3 liters (3.1 quarts):

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productde...asp?RecID=12261

Looking at these different remote oil filter consoles:

http://hpwtx.com/product/sys222-90007-12/
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productde...asp?RecID=11514

I guess a lot of people use the standard /6 oil tank and plumbing and don't have the same issues you run into with a front mounted oil tank.

John

Looking great John! So glad to see you making more progress. While the Moroso stuff is nice, I got away with a much cheaper option for a breather via Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alum-Breather-Tank...3ab&vxp=mtr

I think that one is 1 quart as well but has NPT fittings. I know there are AN-fitting versions for the same price though. Even though mine is not a /6, I don't think you need anything bigger than a quart. I've only drained mine once (in 2 years) and even then it wasn't really necessary.

We took a Corvette to the Lemans Classic , I installed one of these marine wipers..
http://www.marinco.com/en/products/wiper-s...iper-motors/mrv

Cool, thanks for sharing that.

How was the event?

John

Duplicate post deleted.

Warning: Long post with questions about the fuel system.

Looking at my current fuel system mock up it has some good points, like the fuel pumps are mounted pretty low compared to the fuel tank. All the parts are easy to get to and service. Locating the fuel pumps under the cowl would put them above the level of the fuel tank, which will make it harder for them to prime. The bad point is that I have built a closed compartment in the front trunk with 3 heat sources: 2 fuel pumps and the oil radiator. Also enclosed in there is the fuel tank. So I am worried about fuel boiling and vapor locking the pumps.

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I do like this setup so I want to make it work. I will need to heat shield the oil radiator, maybe using the extruded aluminum shield material that is 1 cm thick. Maybe some gold satellite tape. I think fresh air coming in and being vented out somewhere is needed. The oil cooler ducting is sealed off from the front trunk so it does not do anything to cool the trunk. There is room to add some 4" hose from the front bumper holes to either cool the trunk or the front brakes or both. I think some vents in the wheel houses for air to leave the trunk would work. I used to wonder why the original builders cut part of the bulkhead between the front trunk and oil tank, but now I think it was to extract air from the front trunk.

So do people think I can make the pumps work here or should I put them under the cowl? I could use some opinions. I doubt this car will ever run more than a 3 hour enduro anymore but it would be nice to never boil the fuel.

Also looking at the fuel cell mounting. It is strapped to 1 inch by 1/8 angle iron square using 1 and 1/4 by 1/8 steel straps. The angle iron square will be welded to the bars in the front trunk. I want to be sure this will pass with SCCA, HSR, FIA historics etc. Does anyone know offhand if this is sufficient? I know I need to re-read all the rulebooks again.

One idea for improvement is to run a square tube along the front of the cell and add some tabs that would be through bolted with the existing straps.

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Another idea which is vaguely similar to what the original builders did is to run some straps from the front cross bar and through bolt them.

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Finally I could add a square tube along the back of the cell and run tabs. There is actually room for a 1 or 1 and 1/4 square tube there without moving the cell forward. I could of course use more than one of these ideas.

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I realized in looking at this that if I cut the blue area out of the bulkhead I could move the fuel tank back by about 2 inches. This would get it farther away from the radiator and pumps. It would also allow more area for the angle iron frame to be welded to the trunk. I hate to cut it out but I realize why so many people do it with this setup.

I would also like to make it possible to run a taller fuel cell for larger fuel capacity. This is only a 10 gallon cell and I wonder how many minutes of race laps that will last with a 2.5 liter /6 and heavy foot?

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I am also thinking of locating the fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator in the back of the car with the engine. I think there should be room back there and it will be more convenient to adjust the fuel pressure from the engine bay. What do people think?

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Thanks for reading all this!

John

John,

Don't let the head demons eat you up. The biggest heat source is the cooler and its ducted out under the car. The pumps aren't going to add any heat especially since you are only running one at a time.

The fuel cell bladder actually insulates. If you are recirculating fuel its not going to heat up.

Run it!

Thanks Jeff, I really appreciate the advice!

I am planning to use a return line after the carbs and the pressure regulator.

What do you think of the fuel cell mounting options?

John

Hey John,
I was worried about the heat from the oil cooler too. Zero problems last weekend. It was pretty cold out though. Homestead this weekend coming, hope its warm outside to get more data.
How many laps could those guys have run with a 10 gallon cell? With my wimpy engine I go through about 3 gallons in 20 minutes. I'd upgrade that cell too.

Shane: good luck at Homestead this weekend! The car originally had a 20 or 25 gallon cell. I thought that was overkill for its new life. I will try to ensure a taller cell can be used if I need it.

Jeff was right in that you can agonize too much over everything. What the welder can do the plasma cutter can undo!

John

I think the fuel cell mounting is fine. Since you are using the smaller cell the straps are sufficient. The bulkhead brackets behind the cell you are considering is further insurance. Like the tubes from the towers down to the a-arm pivot area... seems very familiar!

Jeff: I totally stole the front tube arrangement from your build. I even included a picture from your build and referenced it back on page 8 of this thread. Given how chewed up the front of the car was I thought the tubes you designed would tie it back together. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I do really appreciate your help and your sharing your knowledge with us on 914 World.

John

Love it!

Progress on the front end oil system. The lower oil line was interfering with the anti-roll bar (doh!) so I re-thought how the lines were running. I added an oil filter console and a breather can. The layout could be simplified if I was willing to cut off the fittings from the original oil tank and have new ones welded on at different angles, but I don't want to do that.

Here is how it looks now:

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I had a spare cowl brace that I used to mount the oil filter console. I added the green one, the yellow one is in the stock location. I thought re-using a 914 part to make a custom mount was in the spirit of how the original builders would have done it.

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Unfortunately my first plan was to put the filter console on the other side of the bay so I got one with the wrong oil flow direction. The right one is on the way.

I toyed with the idea of using a System One, Oberg or other high end oil filter system and I may still change it out, but at least I have a layout that works now.

John

Been recovering from gall bladder surgery for a few weeks. Now I am back to work on my car.

Finally welded in the fuel cell. Started by adding some 16 gauge pads to the floor and back of the trunk.

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I did not like the unsupported span under the fuel cell, so I added these 1/8 straps going down to the pads.

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Welded the corners and straps, cleaned and painted it all.

I also took the plunge and cut out an opening in the bulkhead to accommodate the lip of the fuel cell. This allowed me to move the cell back almost 2 inches, which I think was worth it.

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I added two strips to each side to tie the frame to the side tubes.

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Straps fully welded.

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Now it is really solidly supported. As I welded this up I kept checking that the cell still fit and could be removed for servicing. The foam in the cell will need to be replaced at some point because it is only good for 5 years. It is easy to create something and realize it has some simple flaw after it is all done.

I added some mounting brackets for the fuel pumps. These are made out of 1/8 plate and solidly welded to support the heavy fuel pumps. I also started making up all the fuel lines.

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So much time is needed to build a completely custom car like this.

John

I think that you should seriously consider the taller fuel cell if you're not past the point of no return. Track days for me at DE's with a 2.7 and my relatively conservative driving ability results in about 6 to 7 miles per gallon. So, I'm using about 5 gallons in 30 minutes at VIR. I have a 15 gallon tank and can't run two sessions without starving the fuel pickup--have to fill before every session. It's the sweepers that kill you--at nearly 1g cornering load, it's like having the car tilted over to a 45 degree angle. As the fuel sloshes it'll uncover the pickup.
In your ten gallon cell, you may not actually be able to fill it slam up to the top, so maybe you've only got 9 gallons to work with. I think the FuelSafe cells have a sump option in the center with flapper valves to trap fuel at the pickup--be sure that you have this regardless if you go for the larger tank or not--I promise you'll need it.
Alternatively, you can add a surge tank holding another 2 gallons (Hmmm.....since you have 2 fuel pumps maybe you already have that--if so, great.)
BTW your work looks really, really good!

Hey John,

Thanks for the feedback. I have been wondering about this issue for a while now.

I need to do some measuring but I should be able to fit a taller cell with very little change. I can go 2 inches wider with a few hours of welding. I would like to have 15 gallons to be on the safe side.

I also am considering a fuel accumulator, good idea.

In some series people place a fuel pickup in each of the back corners of their cells and then run both fuel pumps all the time. That keeps one pickup suckling gas under hard acceleration and cornering.

There is a lot to consider when doing this.

John

I would add a fuel accelerator, but thats just me. I also run EFI, so each to their own, I don't have float bowls to help me through a small fuel outage.

These will be available in just few weeks. We will have one at the shop soon to test


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfE1v65fNZI

Wow that's neato !!

I have yellow foam in my fuel cell. I assume for slouching. This would be a replacement?

I believe it will be in addition to the Foam. This is the pickup in that if it is touching liquid, it will pump it. The foam prevents the side to side sloshing

That is a pretty cool product TC that I will look into.

I still am thinking 10 gallons is too small.

I could spend $$$$ to get a 13-14 gallon cell custom made that would fit my current configuration, which is not worth it.

Researching Fuel Safe and ATL stock cell sizes it looks like to get a 22 gallon cell would require cutting out and starting over on my front trunk tubes, oil cooler shroud, and fuel cell mounts...

Not sure what I am going to do at this point.

John

How about a 3 gallon surge tank?

--DD

Doing some measuring it looks like I could fit a 4 inch wider and 2 inch taller cell with minimal teeth gnashing and hair pulling. That would give around 16.8 gallons minus some because I would order 2 corner surge tanks with doors in each back corner. So probably 15 usable gallons before you risk sucking air. Or maybe use TCs mat if they make a twin pickup version and get even more useable fuel.

Assuming 8 miles to the gallon that is 120 miles on track or 32 laps at Sebring, which would take 75 minutes at 2 minute 20 second laps. I would probably be ready for a beer after 75 minutes anyway. Do these calculations seem correct?

If that was not enough I could also add a swirl pot, although I can't find any 3 gallon ones like Dave suggested.

Give me some ideas and feedback here people.

John

Most of our races are 1/2 hr and I can easily make it with my 12 gal fuel cell, the 45 min race put me about at the limit.
That being said I am running a stock (compression & cams) 3.2 L with Weber 40 IDAs
When I ran a stock (compression & cams) 2.2L E the car used about 10 gal/hr

Thanks Glenn, that is the kind of real world feedback I need.

John

Made a low tech mock up of a 16.8 gallon tank. It is 2 inches taller and 4 inches wider than the old one. I can move it back 1 more inch with some more bulkhead cutting and then the fuel pumps will still fit. I will also have to trim the oil cooler shroud. There will be a 1 inch lip around the top holding the top on which I have measured for and still fits. The front edge of the tank clears the hood by 1 inch or more. Don't want to cut it too close.

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The tallest attachment is the vent fitting. It still clears the hood with 2 inches to spare.

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It looks like this would work. Now to see how much $$$$ the fuel cell makers want for a custom size. I will also ask if they are aware of the Holley Hydramat.

John

Big thanks to Brian Boss from German Parts and Restoration www.gprparts.com !

He took the initiative to contact me after I posted a thread looking for a vintage looking anti-roll bar. I wanted a large bar that would work with the car's original and fairly unusual arms and drop links. I did not want one all red or blue anodized parts that would not look 70s.

Brian pointed out the RSR bar made by Tarret Engineering had a vintage look. He was able to work with Tarret to get me just the bar and bearing blocks for a fraction of what the whole RSR kit would cost. Finding the right parts takes an incredible amount of time on a project like this so it is really nice to have informed help from a vendor! Thanks also to Tarret for agreeing to package this!

So here is some anti-roll bar porn:

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The RSR bar is beautifully made and plated and the bearings are anodized in grey.

I zinc plated and chromated the original arms using a Caswell Plating kit and got new rod ends and hardware for the drop links.

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On the car:

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Thanks again Brian!

John

Custom 15 gallon ATL fuel cell ordered. I was pleasantly surprised to find this was only a few hundred dollars more than a stock size fuel cell would have been. ATL said that getting a rectangular cell made was not that time consuming thus not much more expensive. Their people were super helpful. I got two pickups in opposite back corners to avoid fuel starvation.

Should be here in a couple weeks.

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Pyrotect had an even lower quote for a custom cell with the same fixings. I would have picked them but the car originally had an ATL cell. Never knew much about Pyrotect before now but they have some good products at very good prices.

John

I'm thinking our car is back there somewhere

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Your sway bar arms look like the arms provided in the H&H sway bar kits. I have H&H bars on my car, purchased and installed around 1980, and the arms are practically identical, except the Cad plating on mine has long deteriorated. Your installation looks great.

Thanks Mike. I've been wondering who made it.

I have been making some progress I need to post.

John

Your work and skills on a 914 is an inspiration to anyone new to these cars!

Thanks for such a detailed build!

Cheers

Nemi

Are you running 2 pumps? If not, you might still suck in an air bubble on a hard corner if running through a T fitting to a single pump.

I am running two pumps and would plan to run both at all times.

The car will be carbureted which helps a little because the bowls store some fuel.

John

John, I found this in my collections, I can't remember if it was in 84' or 85'. Taken at
Pocono IMSA event. Could this be your car?
Sorry for poor clarity. Did not own a zoom lens yet.
Keep up the good work.

Ha, that's Ray Hendricks' car, now owned by gms here on the board! He'll be happy to get that picture ...

Ok John,GMS (Glenn) just let me know it's his ride. Awesome all the same.
Both threads are excellent reads. Thanks guys.

The only other clear shot in period,again 84' / 85' of 914.
Anyone here have this one?

that is Fred Apgar's 914/6 and that would be 1985