Thanks guys for the ideas!

I think some use the A-arm parts off of a Opal.
There is a thread somewhere on the samba where a guy built his own A-arm from scratch, but right now all I can find is off-road set-ups.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6689847

Mustang 2 on a type 1 beetle pan

http://www.sterlingkitcars.com/members_n_f...beetle-pan.html

http://www.heidts.com/part/mustang-2-front-suspension-ifs/

http://eyeball-engineering.net/a-arm.html

A search on the Germanlook suspension forum to look through.

http://www.germanlook.net/forums/search.php?searchid=290023

Not sure why mendeola would not work. They have various widths and various hubs for VW wide five and Porsche 944 I believe. I would not pass this by without more thorough consideration.

Just figuring out to weld it in would be the trick. You got the fab/welding skills.

Reduced height type 1 super beetle struts/hubs (redrilled) maybe should be a similar spring rate have no idea if they will work.
just putting it out there,cheers

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic...28&start=15

Some solutions from England.

Books for the builder:
1) Build Your Own Sports Car by Ron Champion
2) Competition Car Composites by Simon McBeath
3) Race and Rally Source Book by Allan Staniforth
4) Competition Car Suspension by Allan Staniforth
5) How to Build Motorcycle engine Racing Cars' by Tony Pashley

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=...by+Ron+Champion
http://thebargeots.free.fr/documents/Compe..._Suspension.pdf
http://www.962and904.com/

http://www.fsae.com/forums/showthread.php?...examples-anyone
http://www.wwufsae.com/Shared_FSAE_CAD_Library/

This was the response from Bruce at Eyeball, a very honest answer, and much appreciated.

"hi
in a word no,but anything is possible with enough money
the old saying goes speed costs money,how fast do you want to go?
thanks bruce "

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http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/07/o...a-the-manic-gt/

A car you've never heard of,Canadian even.A ton of money that went ffft,and dissipated into nothing.
I acquired two pairs of raw castings for the rear suspension uprights about that time,May '69.Planned to adapt them into a custom mid,lost in a move.

http://auto.lapresse.ca/dossiers/dossiers-...t-une-manic.php
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Manic-GRAC&a...igA&dpr=1.5

/

yes but you are buying an engineering jewel designed to bolt on to a beetle floorpan,no separate floorpan in a 914,think you would have to tube it out and build a suitable mounting plate,depends on what Adam has to spend really.

No why? Because they don't know how to attach it?
All of the systems I linked you would have to make custom mounting.

Personally I would jig and fab it myself...but I'm cheap and have the skills to copy stuff for my own use.
I'd start by building a front end tube chassis and look at what others do from the VW stuff, sandrails, stock cars/racecars, etc.

The problem I was hoping to solve with the off the shelf stuff was to make the build easier and less unknown engineering. If I have to get out my thinking cap I'm going to try to lower the shock towers in the front and keep the Bilstein Coilover setup, save myself $3000+ on the Dual A-Arm setup. If I can get the existing system to work, that's cheaper, but I was thinking of doing the Dual A-Arm setup if it was more a plug and play thing, but it's not.

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http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/d...siondiagram.htm

https://www.google.ca/search?q=911+914+fron...UvIjiUsHOgwM%3A

Bill Kirkland,904FF:
"The two Alan Staniforth Books are an absolute God-send to beginners starting out in chassis design and suspension set-up.
At this stage, it was realised that the 914 front Macpherson struts could be modified in the usual manner by cutting off
the top of the tube in the hub,welding in a threaded plug to take a rose (heim) joint which could then become part of the top wishbone.
So now we were into front and rear roll centres, effective swing axle lengths, wishbone angles, chassis mounting points, steering rack
location to avoid bump steer etc etc.Some of the design work around that time is shown below."

A simple approach,in a minimalist method,working from what you have to what you need.
An experiment with some spares you have layin around,the cutting and welding of the tube.
Setting up the chassis on hardpoints,true level and at static ride height,will provide the baseline geometry to work from.
Map the lengths out to scale,drawing on the floor,chalkboard or cad,using the actual numbers.
The effective rolling radius of the tires selected must be accounted for.
Some study of the theory is involved,an improvement of camber gain while minimizing bumpsteer is the objective.
Arbritrary wild ass guesses would result in a horribly handling 904/14,some attempt made at making it better,
not merely hanging it off the chassis.The placement of the top ball or heim is critical,the effective top arm length too.
Many factors that must be made right,some cutting,welding and hacking is involved,the top wishbone's front pivot box inside the sheetmetal.
Measure twice,cut once.Maybe shortening the tube will work dandy,avoiding the unequal length top wishbone,and defining the top attach point.
None of this is plug n play,this is pay your way.
Err,play your way.

Gettin interesting now.
A few examples to peruse,to like,stimulate the inventor juices.
https://grabcad.com/
/

I reached out to the guys at Elephant to see if they have any ideas, maybe someone has down this before.

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gimp
View forward,LH side.
Something like this,good camber gain,tie rod arm lowered.
A RH a-arm flipped,shortened,and pivot axis positioned to suit,the parts are all at hand.

Cutting and hacking.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry1229104

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Heavily modded RH a-arm,shortened,sectioned,reinforced.
Replacing the torsion bar with a gundrilled version on top,the springrate can be raised.
The pivot axis of the top arm is not parallel with the bottom's,in either plane.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...+arm+suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2c03KkF6k
https://www.google.ca/search?q=front+suspen...hZXqV8p0k_AM%3A

/

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http://performancetrends.com/download.htm#rcc

A few minutes work to derive the numbers.

http://www.planet-9.com/981-chat/103555-do...spension-3.html
The graphs describe the 904/14-6 in motion,desirable attributes.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=119846

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A small subframe to carry the torsional loads,welded and or bolted into place in front of the bulkhead on sheetmetal receivers.
Flipping the a-arms side for side,shortened and sectioned.

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Rocker stiffener rib,another added to the pivot tube,if necessary.
Something to hang your Bilsteins from.

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A two piece subframe,bolts to the bulkhead and bottom factory tube.
Minimal approach,the top tube positions the top a-arm bushing receiver.
Tubular.

Shortening the strut is not going to work unless you can find a shorter strut/shock insert.

Veeks idea I though of as well, but it still needs shocks and may end up a poor working design. I don't know how well torsion springs will work on an A-arm suspension.
But the plus side would be the bottom arms would use the stock alignment points.

Personally I'd look into the Mustang II front end, a lot of the rod guys use the Mustang front end so parts are plentiful and cheap.

You don't use a strut insert- it looks like it's only the housing that gets used as making the knuckle for bolting to the upper and lower ball joints. The shock would be installed on a separate mount taking into consideration of the total travel of your new components. And torsion bars work fine with an Short/Long Arm type 1 or type 2 suspension- all of the Chrysler A and B body musclecars had torsion bars on their SLA Type 2 suspensions.

Yep, plenty of Locost builds go this route.

Guys, I think he is referring to the original idea, not Veeks' design here.




It's a spring, why might it not work? This layout, at least, seems to be keeping the torsion bar in the same location with the same mounting points. I could see issues if you wanted to have different mountings for the A-arms, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

--DD

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What's great about these struts is the method of fabrication,allowing much leeway in the modifications to suit the UELW geometry.
A narrow tire,as per the genuine article,poses no problems,fitting a wider front tire to a 904/914 makes for a more acute kingpin angle,setting the scrub radius.
Cutting and prepping the strut must be done carefully,working to < 0.25mm/.01".The balljoint's pin and clamping bolt bores make for convenient references.
Jigging up is a simple matter,so must be done as a matter of course,ensuring dimensional equality side to side and repeatability.
Setting your ride height,maintaining a horizontal lower arm,is a matter of moving the axle forging up the tube,the axle centerline the datum.
Butt welding the tube is less strong than a lap joint,a tubular doubler inserted internally,real strong,to resist fatigue in the heat affected zone.
The same approach when welding the top a-arms and pivot tubes,these welds must pass penetration and porosity tests,crack free.
The placement of the damper end must be considered carefully,the lower arm not designed to carry the load,so must be reinforced if doing so.
A pushrod,rocker or lever arrangement would be possible with a heavily ribbed upper arm,the shock positioned inboard of the pivot.

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The objective is to use what's at hand,cutting,grinding and welding,to close tolerance.
Care must be taken that the joints have freedom of movement throughout the full travel.
A better mousetrap might be out there,such as adding or moving the top front bushing closer to the lateral beam of the control arm.
Tweak the idea to suit your installation,904 or 914,measuring and calculating the front and rear roll centers and cg's.
Play away.

Yeah, what he said...

I'm going to play around with the towers next week, we'll see what works.

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CG is on this vertical line,laden.

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CG height tbd,min/max

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3/4" plate-crs,jig for both axis level.Location pins (ball dim)variable.
Tack heavy,remove location tube,pins before final passes.
Adjustable ball to ball dim,(blue),and spindle height.
M10,M12 shoulder bolts.

Rube Goldberg. Where you gonna bolt up the front of the top control arms?

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Lower cg,loads the lower control arm tube,the reinforcement simple channel and plate.

Relevant question,the weights and balance data unresolved.
Less than a 914,lighter up front too,I would hazard a guess.
A set of scales to determine balance fore and aft,and the time tested leaner beams test to figure the height of the cg.
Everything is a trial and fit,slice and dice,seat of the pants,eyeballin,etc.
Go ahead,roll your own 904/14-6,it's good fer yuh.
As Phoenix-Mn said,a new moosetrap is invented every day.
Come to think of it,Adam,do you have a rollover rotisserie cage ala RD?
Handy for such computations,the numbers defining the handling of the 904.
It would have to be as good as the GTS or GT14,the point of the sweat.
Making a shortened Macpherson strut work in so little headroom is a tall order.(Porsche ruled them out early in the design stage)
Losing the strut and adopting uelws,allows some tuning of the camber gain and antidive the
genuine article benefited from,using all of the 165-15 tires.

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Economy of scale,904/906 LH or RH.
Turned on a VDF tracer lathe,1963.
Similar bj seats to the 911.

That's a deal I'll take every time, Brett came through wen 5lbs of chili, thanks man! Glad the motor went to a good home.

As much as I hate the idea of cutting up a vintage IMSA car it looks like the center seat racer is a better start. I also really like Veekry9's suspension ideas. Very forward thinking and simplistic.

Glad you guys liked the chili. Was great to meet you guys and see some of the awesome cars you have there. Thanks again for the motor.

Brett

If you are going to mod the towers anyways. 944 and race coilovers. 20mm 911 rotors stock. All sorts of aftermarket everything. Or skip the coilover and make the 944 balljoint fit the 914 arm.

I plan to start playing with lowering the towers next week. I was able to salvage all the mounting points from the center seater so it should be smooth sailing.

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More fixturing.
What if you want to run a 225 tire,with a low profile radial carcass?
The spindle geometry is modified by moving the top ball inward.
The kingpin angle is thereby increased from 11 to 14* and the scrub radius is improved.
The spindle height can be increased,lowering the ride height from the factory 130mm.
Measure,measure,cut.

If you cut down the strut have you found a shorter insert yet?
If you're hoping to just shorten the top chassis mounting and use the stock length strut insert it will just bottom out.
The strut insert will bottom out if you lower the 914 too much, you can raise the spindle (thus lowering the car) a certain amount. Tangerine sells lowering struts.

Just a thought
why not something like below, except lose the top A-arm, keep the stock 914 A-arm, use a bare strut (no insert) for the spindle to the yoke in the pic and then lay the shock down like in the pic.
You can also keep the stock 914 torsion spring and then it's just a shock (with no coil spring) in the lay down config.

Veeks could you draw what I'm talking about above.

I'm going to roll the dice on the fact that the coil over have a lot of adjustment, so with a shorter strut and the adjustment I might be able to squeeze a few inches out. It's the cheapest route, so it should be the first. Also, the most simple. What I should probably do is send a limo full of Hooters girls to pick up veekry9 and bring him down here for a few weeks.

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In the future,antigravity generators will allow the use of quaint vehicles of the 20th century as personal performance runabouts.

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RH front,view forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Traction_Avant
Nice work from the '20s-30s,front torsion bar suspension,front wheel drive.
The idea is the same,using the 914 lowers,strut,antirollbar,floorpan,brakes.
One constraint is the length of the torsion bars which will protrude from the 904 lower valance,I think.
A simple tubeframe to carry the forward ends of the control arms,bolted to receivers welded to the remaining sheetmetal.
Resolved the problem if shortening the torsion bars or tubes is necessary.

Good news, the guys at Elephant Racing got back to me and they have a plan that can squeeze at least two inches out of the struts. Stay tuned!

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That's entertainment!
Spectacular hooters sweety,ah,ah,are they real?

I shortened my struts on my Volvo...Koni Race inserts are available in various shorter lengths.

Once welded up I added threaded collars to run Ø 2.5" springs.
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One would like to use as much of the donor 914 as possible,the emulation of the 904 running gear bringing the front geometry closer to the original.
Looking closely at the a arms here on the drawing you can see the rising camber design,it works real good.
One of the other issues is the rear trailing arm pivot point to axle cl with a lowered ride height.

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Get down.Git it on.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/BOARD/showthread...946&page=46
Some hairpin action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbaZU38TBEE

r-clk 'loop'
As good as it gets,a high bar to leap.

Why not add another short strut where the vertical fixed arm is. This would double your compression distance and avoid a bottoming out of the single strut.

The vertical strut looks to be adjustable and probably has been adjusted to the compression length of the total travel. We'd have to have more information than what's presented to assume anything else... I'm assuming.

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Salvagable 914,Flat 12 Roadster.