Interesting looking drums on the 356... and knock offs?

Adam - the 550 work looks like it's happening at Wray Schelin's place?
I'll be there next week for his 4-day coach building course (Fri-Mon).
Any chance you'll be stopping by?
Chris

Yes, Rudge knock off wheels. People tend to knock them, but if they were good enough for Steve McQueen, they're good enough for me.

Yes, at Wray's place. The wire frame is finished so I'll be there a lot and maybe next weekend, hope to see you there!

Those wire frames are really cool. When I was a kid it was a dream of mine to be able to design and fabricate a car body. Had no idea how it could be done and was surrounded by people that thought only a big car company could do it. By the time I heard about techniques like this, I was well on my way to becoming a cubicalized engineer. Finally got the resources to get into the game a little, even if it was a bit late. Watching this process still fascinates me. I'm enjoying this thread.

You should take Wray's class, it almost life changing. You start looking at cars and saying, "I can build that!"

www.proshaper.com

Catfished

Catfished? Not really sure what that means, but if reading this thread is making you feel funny inside, maybe you should not click on it.
If I had to guess what you're trying to say it's you saying your skills are far superior to mine. Maybe, I don't know your skills. But if they are the adult thing to do here would be to maybe offer pointers, or suggest pitfalls to avoid, I don't know, really anything that might help a fellow car guy in his build. That's what forum's are about, right? Or maybe you guys can just take some jabs, like real internet tough guys, that would be really adult.

Seriously, how many times do I have to say this, if you don't like my build, don't like me, or don't like my ideas, don't click on the thread.

As far as the quality of the work being done on the 914, I can tell you it's well on par with all the work that has already been done to the car, in fact in many cases my work goes far beyond the quality that is already evident on the car. If anyone has constructive criticism on how I can improve something, like some people on this thread have done, I'm all about it, happy to learn, discuss methods, ideas, etc. But if you're just going to heckle, please go find another thread. After 60,000 views and 12 years on this board I think I and this thread have earned that. Also, I'm showing the work raw, as it's being done, end of the day, I could clean everything up and only show certain shots, but what's the point in that?

Adam I have no ill feelings towards you . In fact I admire what you do and how you find these fantastic cars. I just know two things that I term catfishing (or jobbing us is another term for this). The work I think you are saying you do on the 550 and wire fixtures is not translating in welding and fabrication on the 914.. I have taught welding and fabrication at college level for 18 years now and have run 2 successful business's fabricating parts for 911s, 356s, 912s, 914s and I see you operate and English wheel but then I see you make a template of a part you want to put on the 914. You then "fab " it up and proceed to" weld" the panel in place. The quality levels of the 2 different projects are 2 different ends of the spectrum and I struggle to see how they were done by the same guy..

Now if I miss read this my apologies. I can tell you this much I do respect you for what you do immensely and would gladly buy you lunch or a drink if we were ever to meet up. Its just that when we talk fabrication /welding sometimes I can't bite my tongue.

Carry on I will be happy to watch your project and won't comment just looking for clarification..

One last thing my number is in my signature I would be happy to talk with you , give pointers, etc.. My biggest critic is proper prep of the weld areas, proper but joints, cut materials with plasma or oxy torch as a last resort and use shear and cut off wheels as standard.


I am absolutely sincere in my offer. Give me a call.

Thanks for the tip, I use either air shears or a cut off wheel, I don't have a plasma cutter. I do need to find a better way to prep some of the hard to reach spots. I've been using a die grinder with a 3" disc, but my body guy showed me one of his tools, I might have to get one. They are pricey, but good tools always are.

Dyna file or the likes is whats pictured. The 4-1/2" hand grinder with a.045 cut off wheel works really well.. The debur with the dyna file.

Also a 90 degree angle grinder with a roloc setup for sanding discs, scotch brites work awesome.

Thanks!

Plenty of us are enjoying the build Adam, don't let them bring you down to their level on this thread. Hard to ignore I know, but you're time is better spent in the shop. It seems people like that will just try to keep the banter going . . . Or, you could get some enjoyment out of this if you're like me. "What can I cut next to really piss someone off?"

Well said Adam. The negative responses to your thread are one of the most disappointing things I've seen on 914World. As a whole, when someone takes on a massive project this group is supportive and objective; offering constructive criticism and encouragement. In your case you've been treated rudely for further modifying an already heavily modified car which had apparently outlived it's usefulness...unless you were expected to restore it to some previous level of modification.

Generally, the prevailing attitude is: "it's your car, do what you want with it." But with you, there is a certain segment of '914 Purists'....now there's an oxymoron....who can't stand seeing someone trying to follow an audacious vision. Maybe I'm simple minded, but I don't get the vituperation against another member who has been forthright in his intentions from the start. I think you've been very patient with the naysayers in spite of their repeated rude, non-constructive behavior towards you personally.....on your own thread. In my own humble opinion, the adults need to check their attitudes at the door or as you suggest, start their own bashing thread. The children should just STFU.

I hope you'll continue to ignore the a-holes among us and persevere. You may even learn to be a better welder.....not that I have any right to critique.

I wish an admin could come in and clean the garbage out of this thread. It has been done on 914 world before but it appears only some personal favorites are afforded this allowance. I know now that I will never post a build thread on here and I am sure there are others who feel the same. Bunch of adult babies ruining what this site used to be.

Brett

I love this forum - and I am relatively new here - but its a shame about all these negative posts. Remember what your Mother said (or should have said) - if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. It does nothing but cause grief.

Adam, keep posting. Its fun to see and read.

Looks like this thread is ready for a cleanup but i'm currently at work and have no time to weed through 39(!) pages.

I vowed to stay out of this thread but this comment hits hard and I feel I need to chime in. Honestly, I get where both sides are coming from and confess that I've been confused here myself. But I strongly agree that constructive criticism is what this is all about and putting everything else aside, Adam has responded well when it is offered.

To think this thread might dissuade others from staring there own build thread is a travesty. I've been here less than a year and have come to regard my build thread as one of the most important tools I have for my restoration. It is equally important as is my welder, grinder, and body hammer IMHO. And the build thread is a two-way street. It helps both the person doing the build and the many who read it. There is no way I'd have gotten as far on my build as I have without the many build threads that went before, or the advice I've received.

I have my own opinions here, but what's done is done. The race car is dead. It seems the best possible outcome going forward is to help Adam create a kick ass 904 tribute. If not for this project, do it to encourage other people to share their work!

I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself.
Ferdinand Porsche


Adam....Keep building Brother!

Ok, so I'm going to go with the Aye's won, and the Nay's can....

With that over, let's get back to the build.
After taking the criticism from two other members about the dirty welds I went back and wanted to see what might have changed in my procedure and or materials. I remembered I hate changed steel suppliers recently. So while my old flat steel had a light coating that was weld through, the new stuff did not. if you look at the cleaned photo you can see where a pretty thick coating came off. Live and learn. I also added some more tools to the cleaning arsenal.
The piece went in really well and fit nicely. The welds came out much cleaner. It was still tricky towards the bottom, welding at funny angles and upside down, but I was happy with the results.
Hopefully I can make some time tomorrow too.

And thanks to everyone for your support on the build, it really means a lot. And thanks again to Rich and Ben for pointing out the dirty welds, aren't forums great!

Adam - Some observations from the West Coast...

The original sheet metal you used looks to be hot rolled, a process that leaves that nasty coating, is messy to weld, etc. You want cold rolled.

What gauge material are you using? It could be the pics but it looks far thicker than the chassis material. I'd think you'd want 18ga.

When adding those panels to replace/reinforce the frunk firewall, if you're not going to butt weld them and will be lap welding as you are, you might consider spot welding them in.
I'd be willing to bet that with the full seam welds you're using, you're moving the chassis around in ways you may not want. At the very least, I'd add bracing to prevent things moving.

You could also add some beading to give the panels some section to add stiffness, especially in any of the larger, flat panels.

Another option would be to add closed sections (folded sheet metal or square tube, maybe?) to form a more suitable opening that you'd then close with the sheet metal. You may find you can work with smaller, simpler pieces to address the more complex areas and that'll make it easier, overall, to complete a particular area.

If one is better at metal forming, then make fewer pieces, if one is better at welding, make more pieces and weld them together. In the end, it's essentially the same result.
(I'm living this very thing as I tackle my custom fire wall.)

Hope you find this useful.

Maybe see you next week at Wray's.
Chris

Adam,

What is your welder setup ? Wire diameter, brand and model? What welding helmet are you using again? This will help me guide you a but more. Looks like your current setup maybe askew.. If we can help with that then the rest falls into place a bit more..


One of my favorite new welding helmets is the miller t94. It has good off welding vision to allow for good placement of the electrode and turns up or down in half shades.

Another point would be that for your panels intermittent welds maybe all thats needed so a full seem weld may not be needed. I would lay out where the welds need to go about every 1.5" for a 3/4" bead. This will make the parts plenty strong and save time on clean up..

Also slow down your wire feed and maybe bump the voltage up a notch. It should sound like bacon frying when the speed and voltage are right and the welds should lay fairly flat.

Other factors that will affect your welds are how far you're away and whether you're pushing or pulling the electrode.

I did a quick search and found this video on wire speed and voltage that isn't half bad if you've got a few minutes (don't be fooled by the goofy still image, it's legit):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZuq4XQTHVs


From a material perspective, it looks like you might have picked up some black iron which needs a lot of cleaning to weld right as you have discovered.

With the settings right, you'll have a lot less grinding to do when it's all done.

Lastly, I'm not sure where your shop is but am willing to help if you're not far away. I'm located near Syracuse.

Remember voltage is = to gears you can only go so slow/ fast in each gear without changing to another gear to faster or slower

Wirespeed is = to gas pedal. It will only go so fast until you run out of gear and you need again shift gears

They should be paired. The biggest mistake people make is think that to make a weld hotter is to turn the voltage up without knowing that voltage is potential amperage and wire speed is actual amperage= heat.

That guy's (Jody) podcast is really good, as are his videos. Definitely recommended.

I would switch to a flap disc on your grinder for cleanup. Or even a knotted wire wheel. Those cup brushes suck IMO. I've never liked how they seem to unbalance the grinder either.

Going to join Chris here and say your metal is way heavier than needed as well. From this view it looks ~0.100" thick; you would likely be just fine with 0.050".

To answer everyone's question about my welding setup. I'm using a Millermatic 135. I normally have the settings at about 33 for wire speed and around 3 for voltage. I have to lower everything when I'm welding on really rusty 356's, too much just blows holes in the side of a car. My welding helmet is your standard Northern Tool auto-darkening helmet, not a big fan of the flames. The metal I'm using is 16 gauge, which is what I normally use.

Any advise on any of these I am all ears. Anything I can do to improve my process would be great and I know there is a lot of talent on this board.

16ga is too think and it is hot rolled which makes your job harder. What is your wire diameter?

16 ga isn't what you want. It's unnecessarily heavy and that much more difficult to shape. Unless you're willing to cut out and re-do the recent work on the frunk area, I'd simply recommend that from here on, you use 18 ga, and even consider 20 ga, depending on what you're building.
What I'm finding is that I need to really think through the piece I'm making and understand what it needs to do: Is it bearing or transferring any load or is it primarily closing off a space? You've left the main cross brace between the suspension towers so the primary stiffening design is still intact. But look at where and how they reinforced when running the 100 liter tanks. It's 18 or 20 ga with lots of section / shaping to recoup strength (from removing that main panel) and transmit the loads into the chassis.
The pic is from Armando's build and he did a neat thing by welding in that tube to fully enclose the sway bar and create a "lower" cross brace. Pretty neat touch.

Something to consider as you move to other parts of the chassis mods.

Unfortunately once I finish this front suspension area there isn't much sheet metal work left. I have to shorten the center and take care of the cage, but that's about it with the chassis. At least the major work, the rest is covered up with the 904 body. The shock towers in the rear are already lowered. The front area was the biggest hurdle and the most intimidating one.

For the record, that quote is what drives me to take on these projects.

I'm using .030 wire and the gas is 75% Argon/ 25% Carbon Dioxide

For non-structural sheet metal, I've found I have better results with .023 wire.

Check to see if your welder has a wire drive wheel that can be flipped around to accommodate various wire sizes. You'll also need the appropriate sized tips.

Please don't make me come back here for more cleanup. I hate cleaning.

Maybe we can hire Ferg as the forum cleaner?

Thanks guys, I'll check it out.

Another suggestion if you have time is take a short community college or tech college welding class on GMAW .. I have a ton of people that come to my classes that are building cars for hobby or race.. Even 20 hours of helmet time will drastically improve your welding skills.

Thanks Andy!

I did that about 7 years ago in Brooklyn. Wasn't a lot of help. The teachers were plumbers and were very confused about why I would want to grind down a weld. Also, it was all stick welding. When I asked about Mig or Tig, they had an old mig in the back they got working for me. So I got really good at stick welding, which I've never done again.
The other problem is 90% of the welding I've done has been on really rusty 356's so the skilled I learned there don't always translate into working on good steel. It's a journey.

The funniest thing about the class in Brooklyn was a couple of guys were asking me who my PO was? Previous owner? Huh?
Probation officer, apparently, taking this welding class was the first thing you took to become a licensed plumber in NYC, and a lot of probation guys were funneled there. It was funny, me and the ex-cons.

Wow thats too bad. We currently have 200 students enrolled in our program and teach around what the students actually need based off of what the purpose of their needed outcomes are..

I can see why that class wouldn't help ..

Sounds like that would have been a much better move.

Yeah, I think it's a location issue. In CT you can take classes more geared towards aerospace fabrication techniques given the local industry. Likely the same where Ben teaches in WI (though his program also does sound pretty awesome ). Not much of that in NYC; you're looking at a local need for pipe fitters and structural welders. A lot of pipe fitters can really weld, but not really relevant.

Well, thanks to the help from this forum I was able to figure out that the steel I bought was not going to work. Hot rolled is not the way to go. But what to do with the steel, take it back? That's a pain.
Then today Big John was getting a motor off the shelf to crate up and was crabbin about how hard it is to move the motors around on the wood shelf, they grab at every turn. he said, "We should put sheet steel up here and then we could slide the motors."

Sheet steel you say? I just happen to have a pile.

It all works out in the end, right?

There you go perfect..

One side note. Going with thinner metals will increase difficulty for welding so do some test welds 1st to ensure proper setup.

The price of plasma cutters have come down so much , even JEGS has one that would be perfect for sheet metal for $300 . Sometimes much safer than a cutoff wheel. One exploded wheel and a trip to the ER could pay for the plasma!

Good lord, I've come to love that sound.

It wasn't an exploding wheel, but a tiny chunk of metal, from using the wheel. Went to urgent care, they sent me to the ER, and then had to follow up with an eye DR who scrapped the rust spot off my eye. Ironic, Porsches rust everywhere, even in your eye!

Ever since then, it's full face shield, no glasses.