I'm still trying to figure out the axle solution. I went to the junk yard today and got an axle from a suby. The output shaft is too small for the 914 hub.

one good step - forward.

This image and my comments may be more confusing than helpful but I will submit it anyway : )

Jim

the subaru axle diameter is the same as the inner race of the 914 cv, however it has coarse splines (25 teeth). If the bus axles had 25 teeth then we would need only 2 adapters instead of 4. You would have the bus axle with the suby cv/tranny flange on one end and the bus cv and adapter on the other. Of course I don't know any details of bus axles.

see this thread - it does not answer our questions but has some good info that may be usefull ??

Jim

http://www.pelicanbbs.com/posts/85756.htm

Bus axle spline count is 33. 930 is 28 spline. Sway a way makes custom length axles in the 33 and 28 spline. You could use type 2/4 cv joints or 930s with a modified stubaxle and trans cv flange. IIRC the axles are around $250 for custom length. Depending on what you need it may not be a custom length. Bus axles from 69-79 are 18 3/4 in long. 924/thing axles are 16 1/8. Bug axles are 16 5/16. The shorter of the two vanagon axles for an 80-83 auto might work. I think they are around 19.5 IIRC.


John

since the subaru drive shaft is longer can it be cut and machined to except a 914 cv on the outer end?

Looking back on all the thought being giving to the axles/cvs - my current thought is for one of us to get the engine and tranny installed in a 914 wit the sub tranny outputs properly oriented/horizontal with the 914 hubs. Once installed it is final position we can thenget exact dims needed.

As ar as cutting the sub axles and resplining them I assume enough metal needs to be remaining on the axles after they have been cut and the diameter has to be at least enough as well.

The question I have is will the motor mount that either scott thacher or tonyakavw are using work for us? They are both using 901 trannys and the kep conversion parts they are using put an additional dimension between their 901 tranny and their sub engine. I do not know exactly how much space they have between their engine's and their rear firewall. But deciding - for lack of a better word - on a motor mount possibly should be first priority.

Also note that Scott rotated the intake manifold on his engine so tat the throttle body can fit under in the engine bay without cutting, he removed his egr, and tony decided to cut down his oil pan to reduce the chances of bottoming out on it. besides needed to relocate the alternator - I do not know how many other things we need to consider that may effect the style of the engine mount or tranny mount for that matter.

Jim

I have my suby engine and trans in the car on stands (no mounts yet). Even with an adapter the 914 driveshafts seem to be too long. They hit the output flanges of the transmission.

I have no doubt you are correct that the 914 axles/cvs are too long - if one takes tis as fact the option probably are many - but two are - bus axles/cvx with custom adaptors on either end - or totally custom axles/cvs from maybe one of the two shops so far listed in this thread for I hope not more than $350 a set?

The option is of course to go with the 901 tranny and KEP adaptors thus not having the axles/cv problem/cost and not having to buy the aussy parts for a sub awd tranny but I think I know what we prefer

So you have your engine in the engine bay with the sub tranny mounted to it and the output shafts are in the proper location that when when the car is on its opwn weight the axles with be horizontal and even with the sub output flanges - if so how much room is there left between the engine and the rear engine bay - and have you rotated your intake manifold ??

Jim

I don't have a final position for the engine/trans yet. I have a turbo so clearance is an issue. If it wasn't for the turbo I could have the axles square with the hubs. i may have to cut for the turbo, but i will worry about it when i get to it. Once I have the cv/driveshaft situation taken care of then I will have a better idea of engine position.
This is just a random pic of underneath.

Hmm, something different is going on here. I don't have the little stubs at the CV outputs my trans uses a one piece cv/stub that just plugs into the trans like a honda. I'm sure the splines are the same because the aftermarket diffs fit the turbo and na transmissions. You may have more room with the NA one piece cv/stubs.

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 22 2006, 08:34 PM)

The option is of course to go with the 901 tranny and KEP adaptors thus not having the axles/cv problem/cost and not having to buy the aussy parts for a sub awd tranny but I think I know what we prefer

$600 or so for the KEP stuff.....the axles look pretty cheap to me

besides, you are getting a more modern and not as used/abused transmission using the Subaru transmission....I wouldn't even consider using the 901 if I had a choice...

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 22 2006, 06:16 PM)

Looking back on all the thought being giving to the axles/cvs - my current thought is for one of us to get the engine and tranny installed in a 914 wit the sub tranny outputs properly oriented/horizontal with the 914 hubs. Once installed it is final position we can thenget exact dims needed. As ar as cutting the sub axles and resplining them I assume enough metal needs to be remaining on the axles after they have been cut and the diameter has to be at least enough as well. The question I have is will the motor mount that either scott thacher or tonyakavw are using work for us? They are both using 901 trannys and the kep conversion parts they are using put an additional dimension between their 901 tranny and their sub engine. I do not know exactly how much space they have between their engine's and their rear firewall. But deciding - for lack of a better word - on a motor mount possibly should be first priority. Also note that Scott rotated the intake manifold on his engine so tat the throttle body can fit under in the engine bay without cutting, he removed his egr, and tony decided to cut down his oil pan to reduce the chances of bottoming out on it. besides needed to relocate the alternator - I do not know how many other things we need to consider that may effect the style of the engine mount or tranny mount for that matter. Jim

I hope to start on mine sometime soon - having a new baby and trying to start a new career (and a home bussiness all at once) is slowing me down a bit.
My idea for a mount is different from Scotts of Fiids because I am doing a differnt task mounting both the engine and trans using the original 914 mounting points (just for fun I plan on having the radiator mounted on the same subframe to make a one piece powertrain unit that can by easily removed.)

Steve,

I was told that if you pull hard enough - not a god thing to do - the stud output splined axle will come out of the sub tranny.

One piece unit - hum - we are all looking forward to that.

The more I think about it the more the concept of standard style/length axles/cvs is not reasonable if each of us are using a different engine/tanny mount system thus different axle.cv requriements possibly.

I just read an email from Todd at http://www.precisionalloy.com and he is asking for a bus axle/cv, a sub output stub flange, and a 914 wheel hub flange from anyone who may be interested in a quote for custom adaptors for a bus axle/cv assy.

Jim

--

Todd,
Right now we are trying to get one of the guys to actually get the engine and tranny solidly mounted in a 914. Once this is done we will know exactly what dimensions we will need and if bus axles/cvs - in our opinion - will leave enough room for adaptors. If so we will likely contact you then - send you a bus axle/cv, a sub output stub flange, and a 914 wheel hub flange. If you can get the price lower if we order multiple sets - that would help. $200 for adaptors and then another $125 for bus axles/cvs is $325. I am not 100% certain but it is possible we can find a vendor who can make complete custom axles/cvs for about $350. My guess is that for the $25 difference - most would choose the complete custom axles/cvs - but there may be reasons that I have not yet thought of - or have been discussed -that favor adaptor besides total price??
Thank you,
Jim

--

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Francis [mailto:tbf@pacifier.com]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 4:05 PM
To: KELLY, Jim J.
Subject: Re: custom flanges ...
Well, I really don't know how adapting the subie flanges will go.
Configuration, type of steel, way of holding it for machining, etc. If you
get one and want to send it to me I will make a determination of how much it
will cost. I generally charge $50 each for the flange work and the same for
the stub axles. I may have stubs in stock, I'm not sure. If I do they may
be made to 930 CV's. Can you flop the ring gear in a subie or do they work
in the right direction stock? I have never thought about them.
Todd Francis
Precision Alloy LTD.
http://www.precisionalloy.com

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 23 2006, 02:17 AM)

Hmm, something different is going on here. I don't have the little stubs at the CV outputs my trans uses a one piece cv/stub that just plugs into the trans like a honda. I'm sure the splines are the same because the aftermarket diffs fit the turbo and na transmissions. You may have more room with the NA one piece cv/stubs.

The stubs are just that; they go into the spider gears and are held in by c-clips. I have an awd auto that i will pull the diff out of and check it out.
srbliss - do you have any pics?

Andrew,

Are you gonna use and awd automatic?

I contacted saker and they did not think their awd conversion stucff would work on an auto awd.

Jim

Hey guys, wanted to add my 2 cents as I'm interested in hearing how this conversion works out. Though I'm building a custom mid-engine vehicle, I'm also using a turbo Subaru engine and was planning to use the 914 trans. I have a typical $200 used trans, all cleaned up but untouched inside - mostly used for mock-up to this point. You know the drill, once I open it up to re-seal I'll likely have many hundreds of $$ worth of parts really needing replacement. Add to that the KEP 9" flywheel and adapter kit, plus matching clutch (another $900) it adds up fast. I'm on the waiting list for a KEP kit right now, and considering calling them up and cancelling if the Suby trans idea works out. I had Todd at precision Alloy do me up a set of custom 914 output stubs that take T2 CVs for this conversion, and no doubt he could do something similar for the Suby trans.

IMHO, the way to do the conversion would be to have a pair of custom output flanges made up for the Subaru trans. These would be a whole lot like the standard T1/T2 IRS output flanges - a Subaru matching splined hub with T1/914 (or T2 in my case) CV matching flange, with a dowel pin hole to attach onto the Subaru output stub. Then use a the original 914 CVs and a set of aftermarket axles. Check the axle sizes available at TRE/SAW:
http://www.taylor-race.com/index.HTM
http://www.swayaway.com/VW%20frameset.htm

It seems to me if you only have to purchase off the shelf axles and custom output flanges - that seems like a less expensive way to go than a full set of custom axles and CVs? FWIW I priced a set of custom 33(T2)/28(930) spline axles from SAW (ie: nothing too special!), they quoted ~ $600/pr, just for the bare axles!
The "estimated" price from Raxles seems to be too good to be true - especially considering the somewhat limited market potential?

Back into lurk mode - but will be following this development closely.
Jeff

if the output stubs were not there and if the 914 output flanges would fit into the suby tranny then the 914 axles would be a perfect fit. the only reason i said they are too long is that they hit the output stubs. take away the stubs, add 914 flanges and it's good to go.

then there would be no need for custom axles or cv's

As I understand it the stubs are removeable. How much room the there between the 914 axle flange and the tranny? Maybe all we need is a custom output stub that has a flange?

How far does the output stub protrude from the sub tranny?

Jim

the width of the tranny at the output is the same as the 914 tranny. the stub only comes out about an inch.
the 914 flange idea would be perfect if it can be made to work. i think i'll pull a suby diff and the 914 diff today and compare the two. maybe the spider gears can be changed. i doubt it, but i am just thinking out loud.

here is a rough drawing of a custom output stub with flange

914 output flange

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 23 2006, 06:19 AM)

As I understand it the stubs are removeable. How much room the there between the 914 axle flange and the tranny? Maybe all we need is a custom output stub that has a flange? How far does the output stub protrude from the sub tranny? Jim

My trans isn't missing the stubs - the whole thing is one piece. Stub-CV-Axle all of this is one piece. I have seen the stubs for sale with an aftermaret diff do I don't think it really matters how the solution is made it should still fit all of the transmissions.

i've spoken to jim some about this conversion. i know NOTHING about porsche, i know subaru's only so none of this may be useful. he mentioned some axle issues on the conversion. the best starting point might be to call MWE Axles in Colorado:

(303) 522-8070

they are subaru axle specialists and have done custom axles for off roading and subaru to subaru conversions that require some machining and swapping of DOJ's and such. i can't imagine they wouldn't want to help you out.
they are a great company and do excellent axle work, highly regarded among the subaru community.

not sure about subaru transmission without stub axles, never seen one like that. every subaru transmission i've seen has splined output shafts for the front axles. impreza, legacy, all older generation and even the wrx trans output shafts are stubs that are held in place by a clip. they pull out and pop back in. they have a clip at the base that stays with the stub when you yank it from the trans (not sure why you'd ever want to do that though!). if you yank on the cv axle hard enough without knocking the pin retaining the axle to the trans stub, the stub will pull out of the transmission.

(shameless plug) i have two impreza's (97 and 98) that i'll be selling whole or parting out. i bought them wrecked to use for body parts (fixing hail damage on mine), don't need the drive train if anyone is interested in the entire car - engine, trans wiring, engine mounts, trans mount, shifter, etc for a conversion. one may be spoken for in entirety and the other i may fix. email if interested.

good luck and have fun,
gary

Gary,

Thanks for your comments.

Your wealth of subaru knowledge is greatly appreicated.

Jim

another idea: drill out a hole in the this flange and hammer in and weld the suby output stub on it. do you think it could handle the stress?

forgot pic

A little bit off topic but still relevant as Jim asked about shortened oil pans.
sump

I also know some people in Germany that could get the Bug5speed aluminum
pan shipped. Heck I might be in Germany in a little while.bug 5 pan

I think I know what was going on with my lack of stubs in my trans. The flunky that removed the axles just yanked them out with the stubs still attached and the axles I got were so rusty that I did'nt notice the stubs were a separtate part.

Cool - we all have output stubs

nysr - nice to see a pic of an actual output stub removed

With output stub removed - how much space is there between sub tranny and end of 914 axle/cv ?? Sounds like you think there is enough room for a solution here.

Please check both sides are equal

Jim

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 23 2006, 01:23 PM)

A little bit off topic but still relevant as Jim asked about shortened oil pans. sump I also know some people in Germany that could get the Bug5speed aluminum pan shipped. Heck I might be in Germany in a little while.bug 5 pan

Shortened pans - looks like it is requred to be done - so either we do it ourselves, have it done locally - or buy from sharpbuilt or from other aussy dudes? How much does sharpbuilt want for their shortened oil pan and sump pump? It is nice because it holds full amount of oil!! Jim

I'll email them.

outback with shorten pick up and an fitting for turbo $250 ish

The outback pan is nice, and they say that they can do knock-outs to expand the capacity. I'm doing my own expansion and taking it to a shop to have it welded. I'll post pictures in my progress thread once I get some more done on it.

-Tony

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 23 2006, 02:08 PM)

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 23 2006, 01:23 PM) A little bit off topic but still relevant as Jim asked about shortened oil pans. sump I also know some people in Germany that could get the Bug5speed aluminum pan shipped.  Heck I might be in Germany in a little while.bug 5 pan Shortened pans - looks like it is requred to be done - so either we do it ourselves, have it done locally - or buy from sharpbuilt or from other aussy dudes? How much does sharpbuilt want for their shortened oil pan and sump pump? It is nice because it holds full amount of oil!! Jim I'll email them.

I send them an email asking if he's willing to sell just the parts he adds to the oil pan. I wouldn't mind doing the work (cutting and welding) for a modest fee if he's willing to sell the parts. If not I might work up sometype of a kit to do it.

You don't need parts. all you need is sheet metal for the bottom, about 14-16 gauge. cut off the part of the pan you don't want and weld on the sheet metal. as far as the pickup: cut off a section in the middle and braze the two halfs together. It's pretty easy.

for you o god of Fabrication, some of us are better at bolting togeather

Why not "dry sump" it?

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Jan 23 2006, 05:12 PM)

Why not "dry sump" it?

I "think" the idea is to do a Subaru conversion "on the cheap"

prices are continuing to go up on these projects

Reply from Sharpbuilt ... whose oil pan is widen to hold full quantity of oil!!!

Hi Jim
> What is the cost for your SUPA SUMP oil pan and sump pump?
Supa Sumps are $320 US exchange and $30 to shorten the oil pickup (total $350)
> Do you have a discount for multiple orders?
On 3- 5% on 5-10%
> Is the same pan used on ej22 and ej25 normally aspirated engines?
Yes the same
Regards Mike Sharp
http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au

--

The option is http://www.outbackmotors.com/oil_pan.htm

Who charge $250 and they even advertise they sell the kit if you want to cut and weld yourself. quote "Kit's for this area available too if you want to do the work of chopping and welding yourself."

Jim

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 23 2006, 07:15 PM)

Reply from Sharpbuilt ... whose oil pan is widen to hold full quantity of oil!!! Hi Jim > What is the cost for your SUPA SUMP oil pan and sump pump? Supa Sumps are $320 US exchange and $30 to shorten the oil pickup (total $350) > Do you have a discount for multiple orders? On 3- 5% on 5-10% > Is the same pan used on ej22 and ej25 normally aspirated engines? Yes the same Regards Mike Sharp http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au -- The option is http://www.outbackmotors.com/oil_pan.htm Who charge $250 and they even advertise they sell the kit if you want to cut and weld yourself. quote "Kit's for this area available too if you want to do the work of chopping and welding yourself." Jim

Hi Steve

Yes I can supply
$85 US each
Shipping gets a lot cheaper the more in the box

Regards Mike Sharp

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 23 2006, 04:14 PM)

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Jan 23 2006, 05:12 PM) Why not "dry sump" it? I "think" the idea is to do a Subaru conversion "on the cheap" prices are continuing to go up on these projects

I want to do this conversion nicely at a fair price. Oem quality - not cobbled together and not polished billet, just well designed.
Steve

Back to axles - the oil pan is easy. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the speedo drive.

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 23 2006, 07:34 PM)

I want to do this conversion nicely at a fair price. Oem quality - not cobbled together and not polished billet, just well designed. Steve

I think more people should share your way of thinking. "OEM-like" is what I shoot for also.

You guys might want to look at what Lance Nist has for sale as far as oil pans and very well thought out Hi-Perf parts from Pantera Specialists.

He is a very good Suby R&D guy as well as all around performance junky. For 30 years that I know of.

Guy and has more knowledge about after market FI than ANYONE I have ever met.

He also has a 700 HP turbo Suby sitting on his dyno as I write this.

Now thats a dream sequence in itself.........................

He also has a complete aftermarket EFI with Ignition that may be of some interest to us Type 4 guys.

If ya look at about 2 pictures down on this page (BELOW URL)

SUBY STUFF

You will see a cast aluminum oil pan that is about 4 1/2 inches deep. it also comes with bungs for dry sump or vaccum evacuation of the crank case.

It also helps tie in the block as it is strong enough to be a structural piece of the engine case.

My machinist friend built the molds for it.. very nice piece if you need under the car clearence.

Me thinks I can get most of this stuff for the team at better than retail.. (I think)



The reason I bring Lance up in this conversation.. Is that he is smart.. And ALL of his stuff has been R&Ded on a dyno AND on real street and race cars.

Just more stuff to provoke the imagination of us Teener Junkys....

Regards,

SUBY STUFF

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Jan 23 2006, 10:34 PM)

You will see a cast aluminum oil pan that is about 4 1/2 inches deep. it also comes with bungs for dry sump or vaccum evacuation of the crank case. It also helps tie in the block as it is strong enough to be a structural piece of the engine case. My machinist friend built the molds for it.. very nice piece if you need under the car clearence.

Cool stuff.
I think I have seen that pan being sold by someone else. One version had a clear plastic bottom.

I like that pan too. It looks like it'll fit the Small Car engine mount I'm using, which (FYI) brings the engine mounting point out to the timing belt end of the engine, instead of the flywheel end. It uses the original engine mounting points to locate steel mounting bars on either side of the oil pan - but doesn't allow for a wider pan to be used. These might be of interest if you want to use a simple mounting bar at the "front" of the engine (but unfortunately not inexpensive).
I'd like to see what kind of internal baffling that pan uses, the bottom plate, maybe some installed pics? Guess I'll drop a line to Pantera Specialists. Thanks for the link!
And I thought I'd seen every pan available for Subaru conversions - there must be a dozen different varieties!

On the axles - I know Todd @ Precision custom manufactures chromoly flanges to accept T2 and 930 sized CV joints, and sure he could weld a set of these to a pair of Subaru output stubs. Not sure how that would affect the strength though. Probably better to utilize the inner portion of the original Suby CV/splined section, machine it down to a simple "hub" then take the CV flange you want then weld those parts together. That way you don't loose any strength of the original stub.
Jeff

Steve,

I had emailed Mike at sharpbuilt before I saw your post of $85 for the box. He emailed me about the same quote. The question is to we need any templtes from Mike to help us put the cuts exactly right on the oil pan or the sump tube?

If you are willing to do the cutting and welding I could send you a check or paypal you for this work and for the cost of the box and for the cost of return shipping.

Looking forward to your engine/radiator.tranny mount design. Maybe you can make for the group or - make the pre cust pieces available to the grou or the drawings so we can have fabricated locally.

I was thining tonyakavw's engine bar would be fine with me but this would leave building tranny mounts which I'd hope would not be too challenging.

I think a seperate engine mount and a seperate tranny mount would ultimately result is less weight - and block less stuff - than a combo mount??

I am sure the cast pan mentioned above will be more $'s. The website does not list a price.

Thanks guys for everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim

Everyone involved in this thread should read tonyakavw's thread !!

We don't want to reinvent the wheel.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=...f=2&t=31579&hl=

Speedo came up - not sure it was resolved?

Faking sensor signals to ecu will also be a challenge and require someone with knowledge in this area.

I guess a local exhaust shop can fab and exhaust but havign the sub exhasut manifolds would probably help.

Jim

For the speedometer I will probably be using the stock speedometer to start with, but what I really want to do is make a motor drive for the stock ECU that is driven by the vehicle speed sensor on the Subaru engine. One advantage is that you could tweak it for whatever size tires you have and not worry about the ratio being off. Another advantage is no big cable to melt on the exhaust, or get in the way during an engine drop, etc.

-Tony

Hey guys - reminder - Tony is using 914 tranny thus he can use 914 speedo initialy but - nice comment about using sub speed sensor : )

Jim